Report: Phillies A Logical Fit For Holliday
Posted by Tim Malcolm, Thu, November 06, 2008 04:30 PM | Comments: 79
Posts
Troy Renck of the Denver Post has good stuff about Matt Holliday and the Phillies.
He says “multiple opposing executives” see the Phils and Athletics as the most likely trade partners. Then he writes that the Rockies are “open-minded to anything.”
Holliday would be the chrome rim upgrade on the car you’ve worked 10 years to perfect. Would the car stop traffic? Sure. Would it divert attention from the rest of the body? Probably. Is it really, really necessary? No. But it’s an attractive idea, for sure, to add the 2007 MVP runner-up to an already strong lineup, if Pat Burrell were to exit.
As I wrote before, however, Holliday is a one-year rental. There’s little reason to think the Phils can re-sign Holliday after 2009, considering possible long-term deals to Cole Hamels, Ryan Howard and others. That is, unless, the Phils decide to completely blow up the payroll and balloon into the $150M range. Currently the Phils are at about $100M and look to raise to about $130M by the end of the offseason.
The other sticking point is what Holliday would cost in a trade. The Rockies want pitching, and they’ve asked for JA Happ and Carlos Carrasco before. Now it may take just one of those pitchers, plus another high-ranking prospect. Is that worth the upgrade?
Posts: 0 Amanda
Id give up Happ. Not sure if Id want to give up Carrasco.
Posted: 04:35 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Chris.I
I think we all know my answer to this question….Absolutely! Like I said before, atleast we get a full season of service out of him. Besides, who’s to say we wouldn’t be able to afford him after the end of the season? Especially with Thome, and Eatons contract ending. That would free up some money.
Posted: 04:38 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Phil
The Phillies should trade for Holliday and sign him long term. He’s 27 or 28 I think. Throwing him in with that core of incredible home grown talent will keep us competitive for years. I wouldn’t lock up Howard though. I’d let him walk in 2011 or trade him before the 2011 season starts. By that point you can have Michael Taylor ready to play 1B or RF or something. I’m sure Donald will be in the organization as well. Maybe he could play 2B and Utley can move to 1B. There are several things you can do with this. Blow up payroll. You will sell out every game next year if you’re winning constantly with an incredible core of players.
Posted: 04:42 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 mbtoole
Feliz and Jenkins also come off the books after 2009 (albeit with buyouts).
Posted: 04:51 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
MAYBE if somehow they can guarantee that he’ll stay for more than one year. Our LF problem will not go away by 2010. Eaton and Burrell leaving would give us some money to go after Holliday but sending Happ and Carrasco would really limit our possibilities for the 5th starting pitcher. I rather be conservative and point out that PITCHING (much more than Hitting) is the reason we are World Champions today.
Posted: 04:54 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
I honestly, really, want NOTHING to do with these guys from colorado. They ALL go elsewhere and then bust. I dont want any of their hitters at all. They all just go bust somewhere. Atkins….bust, Taveras…cant get on base, Holliday? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overrated.
I think that whoever gets and signs this guy long term to big money is making the next big mike hampton barry zito mistake. I GUARANTEE that.
Theres no reason to do that at all. Ludwick, Willingham, Byrnes, etc, are all equally attractive options who can contribute. Id rather see them trade for a LF/RF not named matt holliday or anyone from colorado. no way.
Posted: 04:57 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
tahts exactly right…their pitching held up this year. thats the MAIN reason why they won. staters and bullpen really carried this team all year. the hitting was TERRIBLE most of the regular season. too many strikeouts. now you want to add another strike out guy (he will be when he leaves colorado, just watch).
Posted: 04:58 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Chris.I
Maybe Kendrick/Carpenter could peak their interest?
Posted: 04:59 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Chris.I
Geoff how is Holliday overrated? I don’t understand that logic one bit. He’s def an upgrade over Burrell, Bradley, and any other possibilities out there (except maybe Ordonez and Manny) which I agree is out of our price range at the moment. Your talking about strikeouts? He had less K’s than Burrell, Bradley, and Ramirez..What are you talking about?
Posted: 05:07 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
Yea Geoff. I believe that our top priority should be getting a very good starting pitcher. If we’re gonna spend 10 million or more on just one guy, we should bring Lowe or someone like him. I’m afraid that if we make this Holliday-trade, we would not reinforce our pitching staff, ESPECIALLY when our pitchers are not the most reliable in the world:
1. What if Hamels gets injured at some point? Our rotation just crumbles!
2. What if “bad” Myers shows up again?
3. What if Moyer suddenly gets too old?
4. What if Joe the pitcher goes back to a par season (his postseason numbers were way too good)
5. What if Kendrick doesn’t get his mojo back?
6. Happ? Still needs to prove himself fully.
7. Carrasco…sounds good but is he completely ready?
When I look at out pitching, it looks really good, but really vulnerable at the same time. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING. Forget Matt Holliday till we get another solid pitcher in our rotation. And we better leave that bullpen intact!
Posted: 05:09 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
Manny is right. And as much as it would be nice to have both pitching AND a good left fielder I just don’t see us getting marquee players for both spots, and our pitching staff does have a lot of question marks.
The phillies do have money to spend this year but after we lock up hamels and howard, we may only have enough left for one of the two positions for superstars.
Posted: 05:13 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny (the real one)
Hey “other” Manny get a different username!
Posted: 05:15 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Chris.I
Where is Tim at? I want to know what Tim thinks about this. What’s your personal oppinion on this? Would you think we’ll sign Holliday? Or address our pitching?
Posted: 05:18 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 From Section 113
Interesting…I believe in pitching depth and we would sarifice some of that depth for 1 yr of Holliday.
It would mean you would be going ALL out in ’09. We would get 2 draft picks for him which would be nice.
I wouldn’t do it though. I would take Burrell over Holliday.
Posted: 05:18 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Chris.I
Manny, let me find out you have two split personalities haha.
Posted: 05:20 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Jim
Ah! Sorry guys and sorry manny, that second manny post was me. I’m a little braindead today.
Posted: 05:27 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Jim
Section 113, you know going all out in ’09 would not upset me, instead of playing it safe. I mean we got our championship but let’s be hungry for more. These days winning the title two years in a row is considered a dynasty in this day of free agency and league parity. Let’s not just be another name on the list , lets make our name known!
Posted: 05:29 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Don
Lets sign Holliday and Lowe and call it a wrap. Rack the payroll up to $150 million. I mean why the hell not?
Posted: 05:36 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 cm
Is Xavier Nady available? His numbers are .305 BA/25 HR/97 RBI but for around $4 million.
Posted: 05:38 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Jim
Don- because were better than those big markets in LA Boston and the 2 new yorks. We don’t have to buy a championship, we earn it. Sorry for sounding pompous and i’m sure the mets trolls will have a blast with that comment but it’s true. I was so happy that this year Philly (which is actually a large market but small compared to others) and Tampa Bay made it, both teams werent even in the top 10 in payroll
Posted: 05:39 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Griffin
John Heyman (who has great insider info) just said on WFAN that “the Phillies are the most aggressive pursuers of Holliday and that the Rockies want Victorino, but the Phillies are reluctant.” He mentioned Marson, Donald and Carrasco and also mentioned that since it’s a one year rental, that the Rockies aren’t going to get as much as they want.
Posted: 05:42 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Jim
Oh Halliday for Victorino. Not worth it. Sure halliday is better offensivley that victorino but then we have a huge hole at center field now. Replacing one hole with another.
Plus, do we really need a guy like Matt Holliday? Let’s be frank, our offense is solid even without pat burrell ,and i’m sure if we stick a much cheaper, more defense oreintated guy like milton bradley in there and stick him in the 5 hole, he could put some great numbers. Hell I could hit well if I was hitting in front of or behind ryan howard.
All in all, I think that losing victorino is tough, hes a spark plug for this team and also a switch hitter and a great center fielder.
Posted: 05:45 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Chris.I
Jim are you forgetting that we did earn it? It’s okay to jump the bandwagon once in awhile, and become a part of that dynasty you mentioned. Go Phils!
Posted: 05:45 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 T Marty
can’t give up Vic. i got that Steely Dan song “Do it Again” in my head. Holiday would help, but giving up the farm for a rental, yikes.
Posted: 05:46 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
Anyone has news on Lowe? Are we going after the guy? cause we should…
Posted: 05:49 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Chris.I
Yea screw that Sh*t. Vic isn’t going nowhere. Amaro wouldn’t be that dumb to make an absurd trade like that in his first year. That doesn’t make sense giving up a key guy for a one year rental. If thats the case the Rox can keep him.
Posted: 05:50 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Dennis
I would love to have Holliday wearing red pinstripes next season. He is an incredible hitter, but I’m not giving Victorino for him. I’d give 2 or 3 solid prospects cause Holliday is that good.
Posted: 05:52 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 From Section 113
Jim- I understand netting Holliday would make us REALLY good but now if it takes Vic that’s even worse.
I would do Carrasco/Golson/Savery/Galvis.
Why these 3?
I think we can survive the loss of Carrasco AND Savery but not Marson and Donald. I think the lateer 2 will have better careers than the former 2.
Posted: 05:55 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Maverick
The answer is simple.
No Manny. No Holliday. And we Let Pat walk (he’s luckier than he is good)
We platoon left field and if its not working out we look for a trade before the july deadline.
Right now we focus on adding depth to the rotation. We need a solid #2.
If our starting rotation gets banged up and pitches less innings that taxes out bull pen.. The BP is less effective. we lose games. There’s more pressure on Hamles to pull the weight.. its a slippery slope.
a rotation of…
1-Hamels
2-(Lowe, Peavy)
3 Myers
4 Blanton
5 Moyer
Swing – Kendrick, Corrasco, Happ
Would put us in good position to repeat.
Assume lose burrel and platoon left field.
Posted: 05:55 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Maverick
You absolutely do not give up Victorino.
Not only is he a great personality on the team. He carried the team for a while during the season. Not to mention his post season play.
Posted: 05:58 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
I agree with everything you just said, Maverick. First things first!
Posted: 06:32 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 J-Man
Offer J.A. Happ,Kyle Kendrick,and Greg Golson…Holliday would be fine here we play in a hitters park as well.
Posted: 06:43 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Sean
I’d be cautious about a trade for holliday. I have no doubt he’ll be good in philly, even great, but is it worth giving up carrasco, donald or marson? I don’t see us resigning him at the end of 2009 and I don’t know if the two draft picks are worth a one year rental. and don’t even begin to think about trading vic. I say play for a starter, and only make a holliday deal that makes sense (i.e: one that doesn’t involve us losing a ton of our farm players).
Posted: 06:45 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 timb
please Ruben… don’t trade Victorino.
Posted: 06:50 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Ryan John
I agree with Maverick…
If you add another stud pitcher to this team, they’re in position to repeat no matter who is playing the corner outfield spots.
Pitching won it for us this year and can win it for us again if Rube makes the right move.
Posted: 06:54 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Derek
Keep in mind Burrell wears (or wore) number 5…….and Holliday wears number 5….coincidence? I think not
Posted: 06:57 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Steve
I had it on good authority during the season that Victorino would not be going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Even though we won the WS, Id still have to take the source for his word, especially considering that the source is now the new GM.
Id love to have Holliday in LF, but I would never give up Vic for him, especially if its only 1 year.
Posted: 06:58 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Bruce
From Rotoworld:
Matt Holliday – OF Nov. 6 – 5:00 pm et
The Phillies are aggressively pursuing Matt Holliday, sources told
SI.com’s Jon Heyman.
The A’s, Mets and Rays have also been mentioned in connection with
Holliday. The Phillies tried to trade for both Holliday and Brian
Fuentes in July, with Shane Victorino, Carlos Carrasco, Lou Marson and
others possibly going to Colorado. The Phillies would likely make
every attempt to hold on to Victorino now. That would leave Carrasco
as the centerpiece of a deal.
Source: SI.com
Posted: 06:59 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 JimC
Where did victorinos name even come from? He’s a fan favorite everybdy loves him here in philly. That’s like trading dykstra after the 93 season. F that man but I wud give carrasco for holliday b4 I give happ for holliday. Carrasco has good stuff but he will never amount to the hype he has
Posted: 07:13 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Sam
Holliday for Carrasco?
That is a nail biter.
At the very least, Holliday would be a type A and grab us a few draft picks.
If it were anybody less than Holliday, I would pull the trigger in a heartbeat, but I wouldn’t trade Vic.
Posted: 07:16 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 MA Phanatic
Not Vic. I’d give up the farm for Holliday though. Carrasco, Marson, Donald, Happ (not all 4 but some combination)
Whoever keeps mentioning Kendrick needs to get real. NO TEAM wants Kyle Kendrick, especially Colorado. It’s going to take some combo of Carrasco and Happ/Marson/Donald IMO.
Posted: 07:23 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 MA Phanatic
btw, I do not envy Amaro right now. What a tough spot to be in. Either way a good chunk of Philly fans will immediately think he’s an idiot concerning this trade.
Posted: 07:25 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 SJ Mike
Carrasco seems to be the golden boy that is “untouchable.” Maybe I haven’t seen enough of him, but I was never sold on him as this phenom.
I wouldn’t want to give up Lou Marson. He’s a solid right handed hitter who is a good catcher. Chris Coste isn’t going to be the backup for much longer and I have more faith in Marson over Jaramillo. Maybe that’s because I’ve seen more of Marson, but that’s just my two cents.
I don’t know if Holliday is worth it. I will never forget during the 2007 season that the Phillies won a game because Holliday literally couldn’t find a ball in the left field corner.
Posted: 07:28 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Pete
O’Dowd is an idiot who can be fleeced if Amaro plays it correctly. Offer him one or the other of Carrasco/Happ along with Golson and Kendrick and I bet you could get it done. If the Phils do that, though, they have to be willing to bite the bullet and sign Holliday long-term, which means bringing payroll up to $150-160MM. It is simply not worth trading 2 major league starters and decent OF prospect for a 1-year rental of anyone.
All of that said, I’d rather see the Phils trade Carrasco, Happ, and Donald or Taylor for Peavy, who would solidify the top our starting rotation for years to come.
Posted: 07:31 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 grrrumpy miner
Holliday for Victorino is a good building block.Whats scary is……most people want to give retreaded junk for gold.For a fair trade to get something good,you have to give something good…other than Ed Wade (See Lidge trade) why would everyone want to help the Phillies and kill themselves.Plus 2 words I can think of when it comes to Rockies big boppers….Dante Bichette.
Posted: 07:37 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 mikemike
Maybe there is someone who can explain to me this. We trade the best right hand pitcher in baseball at the time to arizona for a 20 game losing pitcherwho was 38 year old lame . lame duck relief pitcher and a sore arm low level pitching prospect. and he had two years on his contract. Holiday for one year they want victortino happ or marson or carrasco, why give up so much for one year. Rather go to san francisco and see if we can get rowland back for a couple of players like maybe happ and someone lower in the system like galvis.
Posted: 07:40 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Pete
grrrrrumpy – Holliday for Victorino is a ridiculous suggestion and if Amaro does it he should be run out of town on a rail. Holliday is going to test the market after the year, and with Boras as his agent and MVP-caliber talent will command a king’s ransom. He’s already turned down 4/68 from Colorado. As I posted above, the Phils need to be willing to break the bank to sign him if they do make a trade, but trading Vic only hurts that cause.
There is no sane reason for the Phils to trade away a gold glove CF who will hit at least .280 with 10-15 HR, 35+ SB, and who is cheaply under their control to get a 1-year rental of Holliday. For starters, the trade doesn’t plug the hole in LF, it simply opens one at center. The Phils would be worse off than before, having added salary, lost flexibility, and not filled out their starting outfield.
Posted: 07:43 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 SJ Mike
Yeah! What Pete said!
Posted: 07:46 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 T Mac
Wow, Maverick said just about everything I wanted to say.
I don’t want Holliday – just look at his splits the last three years:
Home .361 62 HR 219 RBI 1.099 OPS
Away .296 33 HR 120 RBI .856 OPS
Let’s pick up Baldelli to platoon in LF with Jenkins/Dobbs and a true #2 like Lowe.
I would be thrilled with our offseason if all we did was drop Burrell, re-sign Eyre and Moyer, and pick up Baldelli and Lowe or someone like him.
Posted: 08:10 PM on November 6, 2008
Posts: 0 Memphis
If you can get Holliday relatively cheaply (no Vic, maybe no Carrasco), why wouldn’t you do it? The Rocks know they can’t ask for too much for a potential rental. And if our major competition for him is Oakland and St.Louis, why not step up, take a shot? No one is suggesting we blow up the farm — the Rocks can ask for the moon, we don’t have to give it, but we will have to give up something. Also (I’m not suggesting we give up Vic but….) Vic had a career year, his value is high, let’s not get too emotional about him. Another guy whose value is sky-high is Madsen, who is a FA after 2009. Just thinking.
All that said, priority money should go toward a pitcher, but I hear nothing about us going for Lowe. Phils, just thinking out loud, may be more inclined to take a look at Brad Penny or Odalis Perez, just like B-list Blanton. BUT if we’re settling on Hamels-Myers-Blanton-Moyer-Happ/Carrasco, why not improve in another area? Go for it again in 2009. Do something. Don’t settle for a mish-mash in LF and hope and pray on Moyer holding up. Let’s go get better.
Posted: 08:11 PM on November 6, 2008