Phillies Nation

Amen, economics or not those draft picks far outweighed the risk.

BAD, BAD move. I could care less about the sentimental part of it, though. I’m more concerned with the four draft picks we’ll lose.

Why not offer arbitration to Burrell??? He was NOT going to accept, I’m 99% sure. It has always been pretty clear that he wants three.

And one year for Jamie is exactly what we should aim for. If he accepts arbitration, great… if not, keep negotiating.

What a terrible move. They blew it BIG TIME. Amaro better have a Lowe in store for us or something.

The major loss is the simple fan? I don’t understand that line of thinking at all. If Amaro tries GM’ing simply to appease the “simple fan”, then he’s destined to fail. I hope Amaro isn’t trying to win any popularity contests, and with this move, it’s obvious he’s not. ;)

None of us know the real reasons as to why they declined arbitration, but we can all be sure that Amaro knew he was potentially losing out on four top picks. (Imo, there’s no point in drafting 6 players in the first two rounds anyway…the Phillies, and almost every other team, would never, ever spend that kind of money signing what essentially comes down to 6 rolls of the dice).

The winter needs to play out before anyone can make a fair judgement as to the logic behind this move. Might it end up being silly? Sure. But then again, maybe not.

the simple fan won’t even hear of this talk. burrell wouldnt take 1 yr arb, would possibly ruin his chance at a decent contract in years to come if he stinks this yr. moyer is old, and we all agree he has maybe 2 yrs left. arb wouldn’t be a bad idea. until he signs a big name, i will cringe at any decision amaro makes, and then i won’t give him credit for doing it. hes a rat

While I agree with everything that you’re saying, I think that the “fan loss” impact will be far less of an impact than you have indicated and the Phillies know that. They’ll sellout regardless… whether Burrell is playing left field or (dare I say it) Geoff Jenkins, the fans will come out to see the defending World Series champs in droves. We have a huge upper hand heading into this season. While every other team must worry about how they’re going to sell tickets and merchandise in a tough economic environment all we have to do is slap a World Series patch on anything and you can rest assured that it will sell. The draft picks aspect is huge, in my opinion. Moyer’s market value is not going to shock anyone; at his age and with his years of service, he’s an easy commodity to value. If you’re going to bring him back for one year (which everyone says is pretty much a given) then why not offer arbitration? If something happens at the table (he shocks them by saying he wants a second year) then you are kind of stuck… if you offered arbitration, this locks him in for one year and one year only. And how much are you really going to save by going this route? Very little, if anything because he is what he is… nobody believes that Burrell is looking for a one year deal. The chances that he would accept arbitration are minimal and if he accepts, no one would be upset with him coming back for one more year. If we had offered arbitration and both of those guys decided to accept, we would be stepping onto the field with, essentially, the same team that we had last year (and the same team that won the World Series)… I can live with that. Now, the worst case scenario is that we can’t find replacements and we don’t have compensatory draftpicks. That worst case scenario is not acceptable.

I meant can’t* (can’t play a full game) on the Burrell comment

I don’t think GM’s care about ‘showing a little love,’ Tim with a chance–although, yes, minuscule–that he would accept arbitration and cost the Phillies millions more via an arbitrator’s decision. Let’s remember that, afterall, baseball is a business.

will, burrell and rollins broke open game 4 against brews with homers. He did nothing before his double in WS, but did hit game breakers all season long. and its been said before, burrell was better than his replacements in the late innings. how many times did taguchi ef up, and golson cost us a game against marlins late in season when he kicked the ball at victorine against the wall. burrell knows he cant run so he plays deep, keeps balls in front of him. there’s not another OF with legs on the trade block besides dye, and hes not coming here. mayberry has no major league experience, replacing a guy with 29+ homers past four seasons w/ guy lacking his first major league hit is a huge risk, also cheap.

I definitely don’t think this is a slap on the face to the fans. These days fans are more educated on the business side of sports then say they were 10+ years ago. And I also think it is a sign of respect to Burrell and Moyer. By not offering them arbitration we are giving them the right to explore any deal they wish on their terms and time. If we did offer them arbitration, they would have to decide soon on whether to accept it or not and ultimately make this break from the team (in Burrell’s case) come sooner rather than later. And if Burrell winds up being the best option for us, we can puruse a multi-year deal.

In Moyer’s case, again, it allows him to take his time. Plus, he is either coming back here, going back to Seattle, or retiring. I really don’t see him in any other place considering how close he is to retiring and we know he doesn’t want to uproot his family yet again.

The business side of this is rooted in the market price too. None of the big FAs have yet to sign and therefore the market hasn’t been set. Why offer Burrell arbitration when he will probably get offers below his current salary and not the standard market price which would raise his salary? Smart move business wise.

And this Phillies management has to avoid falling into the Dykstra/Daulton trap of 1993-1994. We need to cherish this championship in our memories forever, but the 2008 season and team is done. Time to make sure we don’t get caught up in sentimentality and remain focused on improving this team as best we can. We have to make up for our weaknesses and remember, this year, players will have a genuine interest in playing here, rather then using us for leverage (see Bobby Bonilla).

It made sense not to offer Burrell arbitration, look at Adam Dunn, basically a slightly younger version of Burrell and the D’Backs, who are rebuilding, didn’t offer him arbitration to allow them to grab draft picks for him. So obviously theres something in the air that GMs see that puts Dunn and Burrell overpriced or want too many years in a new contract for any team to want to offer. I doubt even a Giants team (making the Aaron Rowand argument not stating anyones going there) offers either a 4 or 5 yr deal.

Curious – Thome and Helms still on the books for 2009?

Tim one thing about the d back. There owner borrowed from mlb 100 million when they won the championship, there owner borrowed money for Johnson and Schilling, they spent and bought there fans a championship. do you think the phillies would overspend to win. ha ha not a chance. John middleton the only owner who would and express it before last year can’t do anything. The way cheap skate Giles put this group together all have to agree to make moves.

Tim: To directly answer your question, I think the possibility of Burrell accepting arbitration must have been greater than you believe, at least in Amaro’s eyes. Really, let’s think about this for a second…is he really a hot commodity and where exactly is he going to go? The AL? But where exactly? And is he going to get what he and his agent would like to get?

But maybe I misunderstood what you were initially trying to say, so indirectly…

It appears to me now that you are more concerned with the respect the Phillies show Burrell or Moyer (the players) and not necessarily how this comes across to the fans. Meh…

Should it not be a two way street? Why shouldn’t Burrell accept arbitration or resign after the contract he was previously given? Show some respect or love to the team. Moyer as well. He was (nearly) scrap heap material and now he’s in line for a big contract…as big as any 46 year old could ever dream of. Cut the Phillies a little slack, and let them take some of their extra dollars and throw some “respect” at the player, Hamels, who most deserves it (especially after the way he was treated last year).

I’m not too worried about love and respect to the players. Maybe I should be. But until a whole bunch of them decide to not sign wherever the most dumptrucks full of money are backed up waiting to unload, then I can’t fault the owners or GM’s for trying to protect some of that cash.

The biggest potential loss to the Phillies as I see it now is if they can’t get anything done over the winter. Saving this money and having to sit on it would really piss off the fans, and the players.

To the next person who says something like: “They could have had four top draft picks”…

The Phillies have (I believe) a first and second round pick already. Let’s add to that, speculatively, another first rounder, another second rounder and two sandwich picks between rounds 1 and 2 as compensation for Moyer and Burrell. (Could be a little different based on the signing team’s final record, I believe).

That’s 6 picks in the first two rounds.

OK everyone, what’s that gonna cost? And please explain how that signing money spent is better than spending money on a player already in the major leagues (assuming the Phils spend the money saved by not resigning Burrell or Moyer).

megary- because the teams that spend money on free agents and are agressive in the trade market with older players rarely suceed in todays baseball. You want a blueprint for success now you look to the Red Sox, you spend on talent and stockpile it and use your money wisely on veterans.

Tim: Amaro could be extending the olive branch to Burrell and Moyer in actual contract discussions as we speak. And I’m sure these players know the Phillies level of interest in resigning them already.

Arbitration isn’t the right tool to be used as an olive branch.

If they could sign Moyer or Burrell for two years at a reasonable figure, would that be better than for one year at an inflated price?

maxhole: You could be right and Burrell may end up somewhere with a huge contract, way above what the Phillies would be willing to offer. But the Phillies hardly knew (though they could have guessed) what other players (I’m thinking Abreu here) would and would not be offered arbitration. And as someone else pointed out, the market has yet to set itself. So who knows, Burrell may indeed resign with the Phillies.

I think at least Burrell should have been offered arbitration. The dumbest person in baseball knows Burrell doesn’t want just one year. There was nothing to lose with arbitration to Burrell. And I think Moyer should have been offered it because the guy has earned a little extra money, and I think we should deal with Moyer on a year to year basis. I think Moyer has at least two good years, maybe three left, but with the age I would keep him at year to year. This, was a huge mistake by Amaro. If we’re serious about repeating, we have to be ready to spend, and this if this is any indication on how money is going to be spent the rest of the offseason, I am not getting my hopes up.

Get a grip! If Burrell would have accepted arbitration we’d have been screwed. 15m worth of screwed. Let me run a list of names past you that you wouldn’t pay 15m to. Gorman Thomas, Rob Deer, Adam Dunn. Forget it. This what 15m WILL get you. Someone LIKE Raul Ibanez AND Kerry Wood AND Russ Springer. How would you like to spend your money? Ther Phillies are a self imposed “capped” team. Thats the way it is. By the way, Brad Penny is looking kinda good right now.

The Dipsy
Chairman of the Derek Lowe in Pinstripes Foundation

We’ll start to see some real movement after Dec. 12th when players are non-tendered. This is where Gillick made his hay. Until then we’ll just have to wait and see.

Realistically I see the Phillies signing a fringe OF like Jenkins last year and a Brocail/Spring type for the pen.

My top free agent choice that we COULD ACTUALLY SIGN….Nick Punto.

Prediction……Burrell signs with a team for alot less $ than we thought a few weeks before ST, and we’ll all go crazy because we could have gotten him back for so little $.

I am surprised they didnt offer arbitration to Moyer, but not surprised about Burrell. I think that Burrell would have accepted arbitration, and I think we need some new blood from the position. Forget Burrell’s power numbers, they can be made up throughout the order, I will take speed at contact at that position.

I understand that not offering Burrell arbitration pretty much forbids the Phillies from signing another type A free agent because of draft pick considerations, but I think that we can improve the lineup by subtracting Burrell, and i didn’t want to take the chance that he accept arbitration.

Now Moyer on the other hand . . . either the Phillies don’t want him back, or they are trying to sign him outside of arbitration for a more Phillie-friendly price.

Griffin: I agree with you that it’s highly unlikely the Phllies will wind up with any Type A FA’s who were offered arbitration. That doesn’t mean there are no FA’s worth signing however.

Here’s a great link to all FA’s and their current status:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html

There are still pitchers and corner OF’s that can be had without losing a pick. Yes, some are worthless, but others may be a good fit. Only Type A FA’s result in a loss of a pick when signed.