Commentary: Moyer Is OK, For Right Now
Posted by Tim Malcolm, Tue, December 16, 2008 12:48 PM | Comments: 86
Posts
It’s nice that the Phillies have Jamie Moyer back on board. It’s nice that he’ll be there to help the pitchers acclimate. It’s nice that the veteran presence can offer some solace in times of need.
But “nice” isn’t the best feeling.
Let me put it this way: For 2009, it’s good that Jamie Moyer is in the rotation. He’ll slot into the No. 4 spot, most likely, and hopefully put up numbers close to — oh, 13-11 … 4.30 ERA. Something like that. That’s a good feeling, that he’ll be out there, doing his thing, slinging his 80 mph fastballs and 75 mph changeups to green hitters. But I’m looking a tad ahead — to 2010. I’d very much prefer it, and I say this with all respect to Moyer, that the old man is not in the starting rotation in 2010.
Why? Because if he is, that means it’s very possible Carlos Carrasco, Kyle Kendrick and JA Happ all failed. Or they were traded. Or the Phillies didn’t quite upgrade the rotation. Sure, Brett Myers and Joe Blanton can improve, but at the back end, I’d like a surge of young arms, not a stale stand-still of old arms.
You see, Moyer can only do so much. He doesn’t have the stuff to win awards, nor does he have the stuff to dominate at the top of a rotation. While he can sometimes hold the fort near the top, he’s not ripped enough to claim an ace job anymore. At best, he’s the crafty wild card at the end of the rotation, maybe in the middle of the bullpen. But Moyer won’t always be at best.
Instead, you can have a maturing, growing back end of Carlos Carrasco — the gun-slinging Venezuelan with fine breaking stuff to match a sizzling No. 1 — and JA Happ — the younger, more wildly varied version of Moyer — taking opposing teams into the eighth inning. You can have unknown quotients dominating teams. You can have promise.
That’s what I hope for 2010 — that when the luster of the 2008 World Series victory has worn off, and the turning in our stomachs begins to grow, the Phillies are moving to the future and seizing youth. … At least on the pitching staff.
Of course, that means the question is: What would Moyer do in 2010?
Posts: 0 fred
Carrasco is NOT a potential #1. His strikeout rates and minor league ERA’s suggest he will be a #3 type innings eater, possibly a low end #2 starter in the best case scenario. I like re-signing Moyer, but the Ibanez signing will come back to haunt the Phillies as soon as late ’09. The number 1 priority should’ve been to add a right handed bat in LF, since batting 3 lefties back to back to back will make it too easy for the Mets and Braves to throw the Schoenweises of the world at us in the late innings.
Posted: 12:59 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Justin
Take over for Rich Dubee, be the pitching coach/pitcher.
Posted: 01:14 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Justin
The Phils will sign Jonny Gomes, I can see that being a good signing for the team. Another good clubhouse guy.
Posted: 01:16 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
Thanks Tim for a great post. Some people here need help taking off their World Champs goggles and see the implications of this Moyer deal. At least his base salary is “only” 6.5M per year… so moving him out of the 2010 rotation is definitely a possibility that doesn’t kill the budget.
Posted: 01:18 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 ped
What are the chances that Jamie does some things that put him into consideration for the hall? Any?
I’m just wondering because before last season, he told everyone he would retire after the season, but he didn’t. Instead he wanted 2 more years. Do you think he is motivated by any personal goals?
Posted: 01:20 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Andrew R.
well, we have this year to allow either happ, kendrick and a small chance of carrasco cracking the rotation. in 2010, myers will probably be gone, so that will open up another slot. we can almost assume carrasco will be in the rotation in 2010, and we can also assume that either kendrick or happ will not be sticking around by then. whether kendrick starts having gavin floyd-type head problems, or happ just turns out to not really be that good, i think by 2010 things will have themselves worked out.
and if we dont sign hamels long term either this off-season or next, we have to believe he will look for employment elsewhere…. just like they all do. He’s got his ring, he’s got his post-season trophies, what else is next? the money. We better open the checkbook for him ASAP.
I agree with fred, carrasco is not a sure-fire ace. i think he could compliment hamels very nicely and it would really speak volumes if we had a legitimate #2, making carrasco a #3. But i am approaching this ibanez thing with extreme caution. i dont want to bad mouth a guy with proven production, but we certainly cannot feel easy about 3 lefties in the order. i think our lineup next year should be: rollins/werth/utley/howard/victorino/ibanez/feliz/ruiz
i know typical thinking would suggest werth in the #5 hole, but victorino really thrived by not being in the #2 spot. i dont know, maybe utley bats 2 and werth #3? who knows. let uncle charlie figure it all out.
Posted: 01:20 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
Actually, Ibanez is a contact hitter first and foremost, which is what we lacked all of last year…its exactly what they needed. Not some big, hefty whiffer.
fred..the mets traded scott shoenweis for conor robertson, a righty.
I completely agree with Tim. This signing is probably fine for now, but what about year two? carrasco might be pushing into the rotation by years end…so unless they plan on trading brett myers theres no room for him…I think happ can succeed at the 4th or 5th spot this year as he gains experience. But what about 2010? is blanton getting resigned? maybe, maybe not. same with myers. if they do let one of them leave then you need to upgrade…
i like moyer, but it does seem like a totally and purely temporary solution. no, derek lowe isnt the guy they shouldve signed either. this signing is just meant to buy them ONE year until their prospects are ready. this is fine for a year…after that who knows. i think theyre counting on that though, so theyll be ready..
Posted: 01:20 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 From Section 113
I would either resign Myers next yr or trade Blanton, only keeping one of the 2 and only go after 1 guy, John Lackey.
2010:
Hamels
Lackey
Myers/Blanton
Happ/Kendrick/Carrasco
Moyer
Pretty awesome rotation. Moyer seems best used as a starter. He’s not going to come into a game and strikeout the side, and he would be misused as a Durbin type, plus all that relieving may bo too much on his arm at his age.
Posted: 01:23 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Matt Kwasiborski
It would be an absolute insult to ask Moyer to pitch out of the bullpen for all he has accomplished in his distinguished MLB career. That is a huge lack of knowledge of baseball talking. Seriously, you must not study the game much.
I think it is intelligent to look ahead to 2010 but let’s focus on this season first. If the Phillies have any more trades to make, Happ will be part of the deal. That would allow Carrasco to have a bee line to #5 and the Phils will then determine if he is MLB material. I wouldn’t project him as a #1 at all. Hamels was always projected as a #1 or #2 at worse and no one seems to have the same sentiment for Carrasco. As long as he is a winner on the MLB level, that is success in MLB terms. And yes, we must lock up Hamels if he is willing!
Moyer should be the #3 over Blanton. I don’t care that he had two bad starts in the postseason he deserves that much and it makes Blanton a 10-16 game winner coming out of the #4 spot.
What do you all think will happen to Lowe? I think that once the two sluggers are signed, more attention will be paid to Lowe but it has been awfully quiet on his front ever since Burnett signed with the Yanks.
Posted: 01:34 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
yeah but what if moyer cant hack it as a starter anymore and wotn retire because you signed him to a two year contract? then youre forced to send him to the bullpen…thats real baseball, sorry. you DONT keep sending out someone who cant hack it anymore….
for now hell be fine, just what about year two? and so what if he does flame out at some point? you replace him from within or go get somebody…
dude, if john lackey pitches well this year and hits the market, the phillies wont be able to afford him…
Posted: 01:38 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 From Section 113
Plus there is enough bad contracts that even if Moyer is mediocre someone may take him off our hands because he’s only owned a base of $6.5
With Moyer’s track record and his low base salary, he may not be a huge problem to move. Probably for anothe rbad contract but this isn’t liek Adam Eaton here.
By the way should Eaton be on suicide watch? Not with the team during the Post Season. Not with the team at the Parade. And now being offered for just $1 million in savings and nothing in return. My GOD, that’s a rough yr.
Posted: 01:41 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
and noone even wants him for one MM..
Posted: 01:42 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 From Section 113
Geoff- Oh I fully know we won’t be able to afford him, but that doesn’t take away me wanting him here at all. Plus if we did trade Howard and let Blanton or Myers go/traded we would have plenty of money to sign him. But we’ll probably sign Saito to replace Madson nstead. I mean we seem to need a token Asian every year.
Moyer in 2010 could be no worse than Eaton in 2008. Also what happens if this teams gets to another WS in 2009, not even winning just getting there. Would it have been worth a free 2010 yr for Moyer?
Posted: 01:52 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Bob
It is my understanding that Moyer was requesting a 2 year, $20 million dollar deal. The Phillies instead offered a 2 year, $13 million dollar deal with incentives. Moyer believed that on the open market he was worth $10 million dollars. If the Phillies attempted to bring in a 15 game winner to the rotation, a 15 game winner would cost $10 million dollars. What does this mean? Moyer is equivalent to a $3 million dollar pitcher in 2010. Is it worth the risk of giving Moyer this type of contract? Durbin made approximately $ 1 million last year, Chan Ho Park costs $2.5 million, and Eyre is a $4 million pitcher. I would think that the contract is worth that risk. If Moyer doesn’t pitch well this year, it is like moving $3 million off the following season.
People seem to be bothered by the Phillies signings this offseason. What have the Phillies done this offseason? Many people wanted the Phillies to sign Pat Burrell, who made approximately $14 million last season and was looking for a raise – at least to Rowand’s deal of $15 per season. Instead the Phillies recognized that they could spend $10 million on Ibanez (who is equivalent or equal to Pat Burrell), Chan Ho Park for $ 2.5 million, and the flexibility to give raises by signing the young nucleus (or through arbitration) such as Lidge, Howard, Hamels, Madson, and Blanton. I believe that these raises would hamper the Phillies ability to offer anyone $14 or $15 million dollars.
What to expect the rest of the offseason? I do not forsee any other moves. I believe the Phillies are high on McDonald and Marson. However, the Phillies do not want to rush them to the Big Leagues (I believe Howard made it to the team at 24 or 25). I anticipate that the begin at AAA. The Phillies just re-signed Bruntlett. I think the Phillies are prepared for life without Feliz and/or Utley. I think the trade for Paulino might have been to move Coste to third base or make him a super utility as Dobbs might start 3B. I believe that Bruntlett can substitute at 2B if needed. Remember, over the last two seasons, the Phillies had the best offense. Dobbs/Coste will be an adequate substitute for Feliz (remember the Phillies made the playoffs in 2007 as well). I believe short term, Bruntlett is manageable at 2B (by the way fans, Iguchi was outrighted and declined it, and as such is a free agent. Iguchi indicated that he anticipates playing back home for the future.) I do not think the Phillies need another OF. Matt Stairs is signed for another season. As such, I believe the Phillies will re-sign their arbitration eligible players and proceed from there.
Posted: 02:01 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Dan
I agree on the Myers/Blanton talk here. I think you view ’09 as kind of a competition between the two and probably pick one to sign to a long-term deal and let the other walk or trade him.
Posted: 02:01 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Matt
Ped – the only way Moyer goes into the Hall is if he wins 300 games. He would be the first pitcher in history to be elected with an ERA over 4.00. He would need four 14 win seasons to do it. What are the odds of that? If he did get to 300, the BBWAA would need to weigh the fact that every 300 game winner is in with the fact that no one over a 4.00 ERA is in. It would be interesting to see how that would go. In the end, I think it’s moot anyway, since 54 more iwns is highly unlikely.
All that said, I am not all that concerned about this deal. If he is the 5th starter in 2010, he would probably still be better than many other team’s 5th starters. With Myers near the end of his deal and Blanton not locked up long term, there is no telling how many open spots there will be in the rotation. It’s a $6.5 million gamble in an age when teams are making $160 million gambles. I like the way they rolled the dice on this one.
Posted: 02:04 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Nationals#1
fred: the article never said that carrasco would be a number one, it said that he had a sizzling No. 1, i.e. a fastball. but he’s only 21, so who knows where he will end up, so projecting his major league performance on a small sample of minor league stats really doesn’t make sense. let’s see what he’s got.
ped: not sure where you got your info from, but i’m pretty sure moyer didn’t say he’d retire after this season, in fact i specifically remember him saying at a fund raiser for his charity in the beginning of the season that 2008 would definitely not be his last season.
you guys really need to stop with all of this three lefty’s in a row nonsense argument about signing ibanez. the fact of the matter is that the guy is a contact hitting rbi-producer who hit lefty’s as well as anyone last year. Yes, it’s the only season where his left-handed splits were favorable, but it was LAST YEAR. why wouldn’t we assume that he would continue this trend? it’s just as logical as assuming that his numbers will decrease against leftys. it’s nothing but a negative, pessimistic attitude. At least give the guy until the season begins before you start making comments about his production and pitcher matchups.
i like the jamie moyer signing for 2009. Jamie’s a smart guy, he’s going to know when he’s no longer effective. luckily, we have enough starting pitching depth to cover him in case this happens. The bottom line is we have an experienced starting pitcher signed at 6.5mil, and 3 potential backups that each cost significantly less than 1 mil. So here’s what will happen:
#1. Moyer will continue to defy age and pitch another solid season, in which case he will return to the rotation in 2010.
or
#2. Moyer will become ineffective to opposing hitters and be pulled from the rotation, at which point we can replace him with one of our young guys or trade for a reinforcement a la Blanton (don’t forget, Moyer’s only our #4, and all we need is a 4 – 4.5 ERA back there).
now if #2 happens, moyer has 3 options. He can move to the bullpen where he would still be a solid back-end piece, he can pitch in the minors, or he can retire. Which of the three do you think is the most likely?
Amaro is not an idiot. He was trained under Wade and Gillick, and he has seen what has worked and what hasn’t worked. Gillick brought us a World Championship, and he is still signed on as an advisor to the team. We have plenty of options, and yes, believe it or not, we have improved our team since the beginning of the offseason
Posted: 02:31 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 maxhole
ive got to disagree matt. im not saying moyer will make it, but there are quite a few pitchers with
Posted: 02:33 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 maxhole
ive got to disagree matt. im not saying moyer will make it, but there are quite a few pitchers with less than 300 wins (joe morgan, rollie fingers, sandy koufax to name a few). here is moyer’s biggest call to the hall. if moyer pitches into 2010 he’ll be one of ~24 players (1 of 9 pitchers) to have pitched in 4 decades (joe morgan club). winning a WS at 45 helps too. here’s where your argument comes into play. jamie has the same rookie year as greg maddox, yet greg maddox finished with 350+ wins, and he’s a sure shot HOFer.
Posted: 02:34 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
With pitching I believe in playing the contract game mostly. getting young guys, retaining them as their arb salaries escaltate, then choosing an elite one (hamels) and signing him for long-term, the others (either blanton or myers, depending on how well they pitch this year) can euither be let walk or traded if you dont extent them. by then you bring up young pitching…
i REALLY and leery of free agent pitching signings..way too expensive and riskly..
Posted: 02:41 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 From Section 113
Blylevin would have to be elected looooooooooooooooooong before Moyer is even thought of for the HOF.
Posted: 02:49 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Chuck P
I like bringing Moyer back as a #4 and the incentive laced deal is good… would feel a lot better if we had a sure thing #2. This deal is less risky than taking Lowe for 4-5 years and we don’t need to take risk… we’re the World F*ing Champions. As long as the names on the backs of our infielders read “Utley, Rollins and Howard,” we’re gonna be right there. If we brought in Lowe for $16 million per year and he didn’t pan out (a la Adam Eaton), we would really be in a bind. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t take a chance… he could be a nice upgrade for Myers and I think he will be consistent. Myers is going to make $12 million this year… that’s a bad deal for an inconsistent #2. You could trade Myers to a team looking to rebuild for a #5 or a reliever (he’s a FA in 2010). We don’t need to rest our hopes on a player that’s not in our clubhouse already but we need to get better in areas where we are deficient. Moyer was a big part of our success last year and I’m happy to have him back.
Posted: 02:53 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Nationals#1
geoff, i agree, but in moyer’s case they got a relatively good deal on a pitcher they knew what they were going to get from. but that’s exactly how i feel about how the team should proceed now. I have no problem with plugging our prospects into the rotation to see how they pan out, and if not, not a huge deal. The only pitcher in our rotation i would give a deal to would be hamels, his breakout 2008 being the deal maker. the rest are good to decent but nothing special really, and can be easily replaced by our own prospects or by trading for pitchers under financial control (veterans signed to reasonable contracts as well as younger guys who are still under team control)
Posted: 02:54 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Mark
Moyer: a temporary solution? Probably but, the old man is wise and has proven how valuable his “craftiness” can be. I love the mind games he plays on the mound with the players, and the fans. His wisdom is irreplaceable. Physically, you have to give it to him too. The man stays in shape and is always playing at 100%.
What else does Moyer have to do to show that he doesn’t need 90 + mph stuff?
Myers is a free agent after this year, I doubt they’ll bring him back. Hopefully, next off season will be the time we get another big arm, besides Cole.
Regardless, I see what Tim is saying. But, this could be a case of over analyzing a bit. Anyone who has any doubt in Moyer, that doubt obviously stems from his age. Obviously everyone gets slower and are prone to more injuries but, regardless, he still won 16 damn games in ’08. And his value on the bench, being in the ear of all the young pitchers is priceless.
I love this signing and hope that Moyer proves some people wrong.
Posted: 02:59 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Kenny
I think that we are looking at this the wrong way. Yes Moyer said he was going to retire at the end of the year, and why not go out on top with a ring on your finger. I think his thoughts are that he is back home and that he has some personal ties to some of these young pitchers. There is no Phillie Phan that can say he did not have a huge effect on Hamels, Myers, Blanton, Kendrick and Happ. When Kendrick struggled at the end of the season you watch him on the bench talking to Moyer same with Happ. Now give these young pitchers, meaning Hamels, Kendrick, Happ, and even Corasco another couple years with this genius of pitching, how much better off will this club be. Dubey has done a great job with this staff, but we all remember he could not get through to Myers and had to send him down. When you have a person like Moyer on the team it gives you another coach and not to mention is a great person in the 4 spot in the rotation to mess up timing and give you that momentum stopping or building win. He knows how to win, which this game is all about. Every year we debate on Moyer and what he will bring to the table and he ALWAYS exceeds our expectations. Now that we broke the curse of William Penn and got the championship under our belt I think we need to stop with our doubting ways. I read a lot of forums and this is by far the smartest fans I have come across. I would definatly stay positve about this signing!! You know what we are going to get out of Moyer, I wish we could have said that when we made some of our other signings, ie. Eaton. This is the safe bet and this is what will keep us at the level Phillies Phans want to be at.
Posted: 03:00 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
i agree about moyer, but i mean in terms of lowe, lackey, CC, burnett…its just too much money to even remotely come close to being a good idea to any people with common sense…
Posted: 03:00 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
as an active player…its a temprary stopgap for 1 year or two..after that if he wants to be a coach, or if by some miracle he can still go 16 wins with a sub 4 era then well see..
Posted: 03:02 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
also..earlier in the season i was calling for cashman for the GM..am i ever glad that didnt happen..i mean this guy goes along with this every cycle for the yankees…totally blowing hundreds of millions of dollars for no reason other than to satisfy his bosses..what a terrible GM for the modern scouting-driven era of baseball..
Posted: 03:05 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Eb
They need to find a way to dump Jenkins and bring in Baldelli
Posted: 03:14 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 john of Albuquerque
Moyer was our winningest pitcher last year. He came out big down the stretch when he worked with three days rest. Yes, he might fade quickly because of his age. He might get hit all over South Jersey. Remember that this guy was released five times and came back to pitch well. He is proven. I hope Hamels avoids arm trouble, and that Myers avoids off-the-field problems that affect his pitching. I am glad to have Moyer back for one more year. Two years….may be an issue but I am a Phillies fan and take it one year and one game at a time.
Posted: 03:16 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 christopher
i don’t remember moyer ever saying he was going to retire at the end of this past season. when was this? if anything i remember jokes being made that the number on the back of his jersey would be his projected retiring age.
tim i think your articles are generally really good, but this one made no sense. why in the world are people worried that moyer is going to magically break down in 2010? we’ve seen time and time again that moyer actually pitches better the SLOWER he gets. his arm has been strong his entire career, and with his fastball topping out at 83 MPH there’s just no indication that at age 47 he’s going to pitch any differently than he did at 45. “While he can sometimes hold the fort near the top, he’s not ripped enough to claim an ace job anymore.” what in the hell are you talking about? jamie moyer was never once in his career “ripped enough to claim an ace job.” that’s never been his MO. are you seriously making the argument that this is a bad move because it doesn’t leave TWO open spots on our rotation for the next two seasons to make room for guys like JA happ and kyle kendrick? really?? i like both of them, but that’s just ludicrous. happ, kendrick and carrasco could each make the rotation this season if they pitch well enough. they could each make the rotation the following season if they pitch well enough. and if they have a log jam at the #5 spot, they can trade either happ or kendrick, because you know what? they’re career #4-5 guys at best, minor leaguers at worst. in other words, if they pan out to their full potential, they could be just about as good as say, i don’t know, a JAMIE MOYER?? the difference is jamie moyer has the experience, and the leadership, to help make the phillies a championship team.
resigning jamie moyer for 2 years is the best move amaro has made this off season so far.
Posted: 03:19 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 William
With this move, Phillies aren’t so concerned about money. I mean if they were JA Happ would be up there, since as Tim said a version of Jamie but younger.
I would have hired Moyer as a Pitching instructor or replace Dubee. And gone out and got a guy like Sheets for 10 million a year instead of 8 for Moyer.
I just don’t understand the move. JA Happ did a nice job in there. Moyer got rocked in the playoffs on teams that saw him during the year. Besides the World Series game, which TB had not faced him all year, Moyer’s playoff numbers were as bad as Burrells and we didn’t resign him.
Being 4/5th starter in the big leagues would gain more experience than JA Happ would in the bullpen or in AAA which is where he will end up.
You take the Eagles and when they were in their prime run they would take the older players and train the young guys then when it was time to let go they would and the young guys would step right in…like Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent training Brown and Sheppard and the list can go on and on Kearse to Cole, Blaine Bishop to Dawkins..list is endless, JA Happ is that to Jamie Moyer.
Posted: 03:41 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Derek
So signing moyer and park and ibanez means we’re done right? No more significant moves?
Posted: 04:08 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Nationals#1
christopher, you’re right, moyer never said he was going to retire, i don’t know where everyone is getting that from.
From the New York Times (emphasis my own):
Moyer, who will be slotted fourth in the rotation, SAID HE NEVER CONSIDERED RETIREMENT, NOT EVEN WITH THE SEEMINGLY PERFECT END TO LAST SEASON: his first World Series title, captured in front of his hometown fans.
That’s from the end of the season, there’s an article on Phillies.com from the beginning of the season that says the same thing. not that this matters but it just bothers me that people constantly come on here and make things up
Posted: 04:14 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Don M
I never heard that Moyer was thinking of retiring.. I did read the article yesterday that said the Phillies never offered Burrell a contract though.. which sucks because we all like him, but it happens..of the available replacements, I think we got a good one in Ibanez
Posted: 04:19 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Nationals#1
ibanez is a perfect match for this team, and he’s exactly the kind of hitter that we were lacking last year. how he this not an improvement? i mean burrell was great, but painfully inconsistent
Posted: 04:25 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Mazinman
I disagree with you over Moyer precisely because of the youth coming up. In an interview recently Hamels said that Moyer was the biggest influence on his career. We also know he has had a positive impact on Kendrick. I feel much better having the old man around to make sure the kids develop right.
Posted: 04:29 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Chuck P
Agreeeeeed… this is the kind of guy you want around your young pitchers. As a #4 starter, all he needs to do is keep us close. I think he can do that. I’m waiting for his next success story to unfold; the one that ends with Joe Blanton turning out to be a pretty good pitcher. If I could subtract any pitcher from last year’s rotation it would be Brett Myers not Jamie Moyer.
Posted: 04:48 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 christopher
glad i wasn’t going crazy about moyer never saying he was going to retire. also i feel the need to talk about all the love for JA happ here. i was very impressed with JA happ last season too. but the over-enthusiasm phillies fans have for young pitchers who come up and show the slightest hint of promise is a little silly. it’s not surprising with how starved for pitching this franchise has been previously. but still, it was the same way with kendrick, and now it’s the same for happ. granted, happ has much better stuff than kendrick. but let’s face the facts. happ is 26 years old and still hasn’t held down a consistent starting job in the majors. he has only started a handful of games in the majors, nowhere near enough to get a good feel for how he’d do in the rotation for an entire season. and at best he’s been considered a good prospect, but never a top prospect.
all that said, there’s a spot for happ in the starting rotation, he just has to earn it! i’d like to see happ as the phillies #5 starter if he’s pitching better than kendrick, carassco and park. but to hold a spot aside for james anthony happ for the next two seasons in place of the 48th most winning pitcher in MLB history (the majority of which came in the 2nd half of his career), just isn’t rational.
Posted: 04:55 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
What you guys are saying doesn’t make a lot of sense… So you want this guy to be around the young pitchers to help them improve while at the same time he takes away a potential spot in the rotation from them???
Look, I agree in that he is way more valuable than what his stats say… he is a great guy to have, especially for Hamels, Kendrick, Happ… but a pitcher is a pitcher.
Posted: 05:03 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 philsphan
I don’t think Myers will be back in 2010. If Happ and/or Carrasco is successful we won’t need him anyway.
Posted: 05:08 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Manny
Long-term planning would’ve been getting Lowe:
2009
Hamels, Lowe, Myers, Blanton, Happ/Carrasco/Kendrick
2010
Hamels, Lowe, Myers/Blanton, Happ/Kendrick, Carrasco
2011
Hamels, Lowe (maybe third in the rotation), Carrasco, +2 potentially cheaper options for the remaining 2 spots
Posted: 05:13 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 MP
How do we know the Championship feeling will be wore off by 2010?
I agree with the deal for Moyer. I think Hamels and the others greatly benefit from having Moyer around. I don’t think Moyer would take or want a 2 year deal if he didn’t think he could have another good two years.
Posted: 05:20 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Don M
I don’t think anyone is falling in love with Happ.. or expecting him to be a Cy Young candidate.. but because he has better “stuff” than Kendrick, I expect more out of him… as the #5 in rotation.
Happ more than earned a spot in the rotation with his season last year, both in AAA and his starts in the majors, but the Phillies shuffled their rotation so that pitchers were going on their regular days of rest, instead of just following the rotation. So that Hamels and Moyer got to pitch the last two games of the season… (Hamels didn’t need to go on the last day)
Kendrick was a feel-good story, a kid we never heard of that came up and threw strikes, with a good defense behind him. I admire the way that Kendrick stayed calm even with baserunners on.. but its clear to everyone that hitters adjusted to Kendrick more than he adjusted to the hitters.. and that is why he isn’t projected into the rotation anymore.
From what i’ve seen from Happ, I feel confident in him routinely throwing 6 innings, and holding teams to 3-4 runs… earning him a good amount of wins and quality starts along the way, but more importantly, giving his team a chance to win ballgames.
Posted: 05:23 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
actulally, lowe is 36, and its no more long term than jamie moyer or ibanez is…
ibanez is meant to get them 2 years until michael taylor is ready to come up and mash…
moyer is meant to buy time for the startnig prospects to become ready…
derek lowe, like moyer, could go at any time…
Posted: 05:58 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Leo
geoff there is no comparison between moyer and lowe whatsoever
Posted: 06:07 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
well yes in that more is MORE DURABLE. lowe has been too, but hes job lieber waiting to happen…jamie can pitch forever as long as he remains effectve and accurate…
Posted: 06:10 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Leo
but jamie likes men
Posted: 06:12 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Geoff
and youre a terrorist…
Posted: 06:15 PM on December 16, 2008
Posts: 0 Leo
and that makes absolutely no sense….
Posted: 06:16 PM on December 16, 2008