Ibanez vs. Burrell, Defensively Speaking
Posted by Tim Malcolm, Fri, December 19, 2008 12:20 PM | Comments: 17
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Raul Ibanez: Horrible defender.
That’s one of the main things we’ve heard since the Phillies signed Ibanez to a three-year deal. And yes, Ibanez isn’t the most stout defensive player in baseball, but, I’m here to dispell the notion that Ibanez will cost the Phils a bunch of games because of his glove.
Beyond the Box Score rated the top players at each position earlier in the offseason, and this is what they found in left field:
9. Pat Burrell: 37 VORP offense, -7 VORP defense
14. Raul Ibanez: 44 VORP offense, -24 VORP defense
Now, I know what you’re thinking: “Wait, Tim, that value over replacement player is horrendous! Of course Ibanez will cost the Phils wins in 2009!” But wait, wait …
David Pinto at Baseball Musings has a statistic called Probabilistic Measure of Range, which determines how many plays above or below expected a player made during a season (it counts balls batted to the player, and determines what is an expected out). In that stat, we see:
Raul Ibanez: -9.07 plays against expected
Pat Burrell: -21.39 plays against expected
Consider almost 100 more expected outs were hit toward Ibanez, and that’s a staggering deficit. Burrell’s number of 223.39 expected is actually less than Carlos Quentin’s number of 228.42, and Quentin played 58 fewer innings in left field. Now, Burrell’s expected outs are low because of three things: Early substitution, Citizens Bank Park, Shane Victorino.
Burrell was taken out of a game before the ninth inning 71 times in 2008; surely Ibanez won’t have the same fate, but it’s possible he’ll get the axe before the ninth a bunch of times. Next, the ballpark played a large role in Burrell’s range — most balls hit toward Burrell were either singles or home runs; a few balls became doubles, but that’s always the case in the corners. Finally, Victorino covered more ground than maybe any center fielder in 2008. When Vic is in center field, it allows the left fielder to patrol a smaller area, and that’s especially true with the speedy Jayson Werth in right field.
Basically, there’s no need for a high defensive priority in left field. So all the Philllies needed was a player who can field left field with a touch more consistency, and Ibanez does that.
Baseballmusings.com features fielding charts for all players. Here are Ibanez’s.
The charts show Ibanez had the most trouble fielding balls closer to the third base line. Well, with Victorino in center, Ibanez can afford a few steps to the left, giving him an opportunity to improve on that statistic. (Ichiro played center until June, when the more inept Jeremy Reed took over duties with Wladimir Balentien.) Is it any trouble to ask Vic to step to his left a bit more?
The answer: No. Both Victorino and Werth were pretty consistent fielding balls at all ends of their position.
On the contrary, Burrell had his most trouble fielding balls toward center field, or, somewhat out of position.
But what about that pesky VORP? What about those 24 fielding runs? Well, if the defense is aligned to give Ibanez more out chances near third base, and less in Victorino’s land, you’re likely decreasing 10 runs from that number, and suddenly you’re looking at a more manageable 14 runs under. Meanwhile, consider Citizens Bank Park against Safeco Field — the smaller, easier-to-handle Citizens (329 to 374 is well … a bandbox … compared to the spacy Safeco (from 331 to 390 in left field, on a sharp outward diagonal). Take away another three or four runs. Suddenly we’re at about 10 runs under. And let’s say Ibanez gets pulled from a full more games. Take away another two runs. Eight under. Right there with Burrell’s seven under.
So, by bringing in Ibanez, you shore up all ends of the outfield while betting on a guy who will be somewhat consistent in his play. Meanwhile, you give him improved defensive numbers. Sure, we’ll have our battles out there, but it probably won’t be any worse than Burrell; in fact, it may be better. And that’s the point.

















Posts: 0 Mark
By far, the best article I’ve read on this blog. Thanks, Tim.
Posted: 12:48 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Derek
Excellent comparison. It is interesting when you talk to people about this trade – they scream, “you’re trading for an older dude who plays worse defense than Burrell.”
Clearly that is not the case.
Posted: 12:49 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 NJ
Defense in leftfield is overrated unless your talking about Carl Crawford or the former Scott Podsednik who played on teams with a weak defensive right field. Your rarely going to loose games because of plays in left unless the ball has gone behind the fielder or found the gap in left centre, Ibanez isn’t Crawford but he’s rangier than Burrell and as Tim says with a strong right side of the outfield you can to a certain extent limit how much the leftfielder is exposed. Burrell made the plays hit at him but he couldn’t handle shallow left unless the ball was hanging and didn’t always position himself well with balls over his head let alone the gappers.
Lets not get to critical of Ibanez, he’s only a marginal upgrade which isn’t what the Philly faithful wanted but there wasn’t a healthy corner outfielder with a good bat and plus defense on the market. Good luck to Pat (I’ll wear my Burrell jersey in sorrow) and better luck to our boy Raul.
Posted: 12:51 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Doug
Enough about Ibanez’ defense already. of the 3 outfield positions, leftfield is the least crucial. Shane and Jayson both cover a lot of ground in the field, and the leftfielder doesn’t have to make any really long throws to 2nd or 3rd base. We picked Ibanez up for his offense! Burrell was notorious for ending innings with either a K (usually looking) or a weak groundball to a middle infielder (the result of trying to pull a pitch on the outside corner). Why do you think that Shane was so effective in the #6 hole? It was because he was leading off soooo many innnings after Pat ended the previous one. Ibanez, on the other hand, is a much more consistent hitter, i.e., one who will keep a rally going instead of ending it. Although not known as a speedy player, I sure that Ibanez will be faster on the bases than Pat. Also, as a lefty who hits the ball to all fields, Raul will serve as a reminder to Ryan to hit the ball the opposite way, which is when Ryan is at his best.
Posted: 01:06 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Griffin
Yay, he sucks, but not as much as Pat!
Posted: 01:17 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Justin
Good article Tim, but one thing you didn’t factor in is that Ibanez has a LITTLE more speed than Burrell, he’s no Victorino but he doesn’t look like he’s running in quicksand like Burrell does. That’s a definite advantage.
Posted: 01:38 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Bruce
“Expected outs” of a fielder is purely subjective for any statistical evaluation. Also to have CF Victorino play out of position in covering another fielder’s area of weakness creates another problem by disregarding the fundamental rule of playing the hitter’s tendencies on flyballs.
Posted: 02:07 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 KM
Neither guy will be winning a gold glove anytime soon (although Abreu has one), but the bottom line is we have a better player now.
Posted: 02:08 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Chuck P
Great analysis… I can’t imagine him having any less range than Burrell. Our ballpark is pretty easy to manage. With the short porch, guys tend to try to play balls in the air that they should be playing off the fence but aside from that it’s got easy angles and minimal ground to cover.
The one thing that I haven’t heard anyone talk about is Ibanez’ arm… Pat had a cannon. How does Raul compare?
Posted: 02:14 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Don M
He’s a better defender (no matter how little a margin).. he’s a better hitter…
BUT.. no matter who throws out stats, or comparisons, people are still going to complain because people like Pat Burrell … which is fine, I liked him a lot too.
But I also think that Raul Ibanez will help us to win more games next season than Pat Burrell would have, which is why I like the move a lot
Posted: 02:25 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Don M
People keep talking about Pat’s Cannon… does anyone remember Dodger running threw stop signs from Bowa and scoring on Burrell.. I think it happened twice in the NLCS
He’s got an above average arm… for strength… its not the most accurate, and its not enough to scare other players the way that Victorino’s or Werth’s is
Posted: 02:31 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Don M
Where does Manny Ramirez rank with the VORP, and plays against, and range facotrs, +/- and all those things..
The Dodgers are said to have offered him 2 years/ $45 M…. and while he’s probably the best RH hitter of our time (A-rod or Pujols…. Vlad is underrated too) but in clutch time… I would want Manny.
But he is HORRIBLE in the field… would make a great DH option for an AL team.
Nationals are waiting on Teixiera before they make any moves, with the Angels and RedSox having made bids so far. I know he likes the East Coast, but I can’t imagine the RedSox getting him, they just don’t want the Yankees to
Posted: 03:09 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 NJ
Pat benefited this year from the bad rep on him in the field so he could make plays with his arm but that’s not the mark of a good defensive outfielder. Once it’s been established a guy can make plays regularly in the outfield teams stop running on him on and that didn’t really happen with him. Strong ‘outfield numbers’ seems to be more an indication of pitching walking the fine line and sometimes shows up because of deficiencies in the field making the routine plays, more than they are an indication of an outfielders defensive abilities unless your talking about guys who routinely take away hits and shut down the run game.
I believe the Red Sox genuinely want Tex more than they want to avoid seeing him in pinstripes but I am surprised how aggressively they are going after him. I really thought the Orioles would be the team to overbid for Angelos to do an Albert Belle to enegergize their fanbase but seems not to be the case, the Angels look like their fumbling the ball nearly as bad as San Diego this off-season. Have a sneaky suspicion he will land in Boston with them prepared to pay as the real replacement for Manny minus the inexcusable baggage.
Posted: 03:27 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 psujoe
Nice evaluation. If Ibanez was a righty the swap would’ve been perfect. As it is, it’s an upgrade IMO, especially considering the price tag. No way would I have wanted the Phillies to try and out wait Burrell.
Posted: 04:30 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Georgie
Wow, Tim, Mr Spock himself would be impressed with the logic here, I’ll buy it. This guy looks like a physical specimen, don’t think his age is a factor, at least not yet.
Posted: 05:23 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 fred
Saying Ibanez is better defensively than Burrell is hardly a compliment. You can try and sugar coat it all you want but the facts are we gave a 37 year old $10 million a year deal for 3 years to play shocking defense, bat left handed after 2 other left handers and offer similar offense to Burrell (less walks and home runs, but more hits). For a couple million more per year we could’ve re-signed Burrell, so basically the money they spent on Chan Ho Park. Amaro is a joke.
Posted: 09:52 PM on December 19, 2008
Posts: 0 Sky
How about more than one season’s worth of data? How about UZR at Fangraphs?
Both are pretty bad fielders, maybe Ibanez is 5 runs (half a win better). Still not worth the difference in age, cost, years of contract, and the first round draft pick given up.
To those who think defense in left field matters the least or isn’t important. Sure, you can more easily hide someone in left field, but costing the team 10 runs compared to average has the same impact at any position.
Posted: 06:22 PM on January 7, 2009