Just kidding, Tim. 54 is a fine slot for his Phillie years. And Lieby was a good choice here. He was an all star when the Phils were starving for highlights on ESPN. We suffered some lean times after ’93, the steroid boys. (don’t kid yourself) I believe Lieby was using in ’99 too. I heard that from a reliable source, the Internet.

its definitely cool to look back and see what numbers people put together while they were in a Phillies uniform

I don’t care where Tim places players on this list, I’m just enjoying the everyday read about great Phillies from the past during a time of year when I can’t watch the Phillies play each and every day.

Thanks Tim

First, strike off Pete Rose’s All-Star berths. Ricky Bones made an All-Star team. By that time Rose was earning them off his name.

Second, Rose was not a great offensive player with the Phillies. Good? OK. His lifetime Phillies OPS+ is right around 100, which actually makes him average. He had two very good seasons (1979, 1981), two slightly below-average seasons (1980, 1982) and one poor season (1983). He had good OBP numbers, but they weren’t consistent over the course of his Phillies career.

Third, leadership has a small factor in my list. Yes, it’s great Rose came in and helped lead the Phils to the title. Does that make him any more important than, say, Jamie Moyer? Whose leadership also helped the Phils win a title? Heck, Moyer had one great year, one poor year and one mediocre year. Should he be in the top 40?

(By the way, if those 1980 Phillies, with Schmidt, Carlton, Luzinski, Maddox, Trillo, McBride, Boone, Bowa, McGraw, Reed, Noles and Christenson ALL IN THEIR PRIME couldn’t even make the playoffs, then they should’ve been taken out to the woodshed. Ridiculous that they needed Rose to win.)

Lieberthal, meanwhile, was an above-average hitting catcher for his Phillies career. His OPS+ numbers indicate he had four average (or very very close to average) seasons offensively. He also had four above-average seasons. Two others were poor – one because he was hurt almost the entire season. Factor in that he’s a catcher and not a first baseman like Rose and Lieby was a better offensive player than Rose for his Phillie career.

Lieby also was a fine defensive player. And he made it to two All-Star teams (not by name, mind you), so if you want to consider AS teams, consider that.

And Lieby was something of a leader. And sure, Rose came in and helped to win a title, but really, would you have expected the 1999 Phillies, with a pitching staff that included Paul Byrd, Chad Ogea, Carlton Loewer, a rookie Randy Wolf, Robert Person, Wayne Gomes, Jim Poole, Amaury Telemaco and Yorkis Perez, to actually win something? I mean, Gomes was the closer!

I stand behind all my picks here. And definitely the Rose pick at No. 54.

From the Rose thread:

“In defense of Tim, I think a lot of us see the name Pete Rose and think of his whole career. This is only as a phillie for this countdown though. If you look at his numbers as a phillie, they are not amazing because he didnt play here that long. Take away the name Pete Rose and only look at his numbers and you’ll see where Tim is coming from. For instance, someone like Bobby Abreu isnt anywhere close to Rose as a player but had better numbers as a phillie so will be higher on this list.”

Agreed. Also read a comment by Phil in that post. He lists about 40 or so players who deserve to be higher than Rose. As you’ll see, most of those players haven’t yet been revealed.

Pete Rose was great. Absolutely. One of the top 20 baseball players ever. But for his five years with the Phillies he was NOT that great. He was good, yes. He was very good, yes. But great? Greater than the man who caught the most games as a Phillie and leads Phillie catchers in all major offensive stats? NO.

If you want to cry about Pete Rose further, do it in the Pete Rose thread. But that’s my stance. And I’ll shut up about it from now on.

/end anger

Oh well, as they say, everyone is entitled to their opinion including yours truly. :-)

Joel you are very correct my friend, Lieby was definitely better, and very much agree that Dutch was a overrated but then again you can’t outweigh the aspect that he can talk to lizards AND TIMETRAVELS!