100 Greatest Phillies: 10 – Bobby Abreu
Posted by Tim Malcolm, Tue, March 17, 2009 02:00 PM | Comments: 82
100 Greatest Phillies, Posts
Bobby Abreu
Outfielder
1998-2006
Career w/Phillies: .303 AVG / 195 HR / 814 RBI / 254 SB
In 1997, the Phillies traded longtime shortstop Kevin Stocker to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. In return, the Phils received outfielder Bob Abreu, a soon-to-be 24-year-old roster filler who performed invisibly for the Astros a year previously. Abreu was selected by the Rays in the expansion draft, but that same day Tampa thought they wouldn’t need a potential fifth outfielder candidate. Little did they know who Abreu would become. The Phils, however, would reap those benefits.
Abreu would run off a nine-year career where he’d break .300 six times. He’d break 100 runs six times. Somehow he’d break 100 runs batted in five more times as a Phillie. To be short, Abreu was a complete offensive machine. His specialty was getting on base. Only once during his Phillie career did he finish under .400 in OBP, and that was a .393 mark in 2001, still pretty good. That’s because the patient Abreu walked frequently — he averaged about 105 walks per season as a Phillie. Also a consistent hitter, he averaged close to 175 hits per year.
Abreu’s considerable power was at its best in 2001 (31 HR) and 2004 (30). That season might be his best — he earned his first of two All-Star berths, and a Silver Slugger while finishing third in the NL in steals with a career-high 40. The next season Abreu made a second consecutive All-Star team and rewarded Phillie fans with maybe his most memorable moment: Swatting more than 40 home runs in the Home Run Derby, setting a then-derby record.
Other memorable moments? Remember Abreu’s dribbler that beat Aaron Heilman and the Mets in April 2006? Or his game-winning inside-the-park home run in 2000 against the Giants — one of 15 game-winning inside-the-park homers in baseball history.
But that derby moment stands out because Abreu played for some bad teams. Only later in his Phillie career did he play on better teams, but Abreu’s three postseason opportunities came with different teams, and all were quick exits. In the field Abreu was mediocre, to say the least, but somehow earned a Gold Glove in 2005. There are also some who say the Phils only became a great team when they traded Abreu in 2006. Is it true? Hard to actually admit it, but to be blunt, Abreu was considered the team’s star late in his Phillie days. He could never be the go-to guy, but he was absolutely an offensive juggernaut. Two-time 30-30 player. Seven-time 20-20 player.
Comment: Argue about Abreu’s placement, but glance at those numbers. Simply awesome. Abreu was wildly consistent and produced a career arc that most players would salivate over. His power came as he hit his prime, yet his .300 average remained in tact. He could run, he could hit, he could score, he could play passable defense. Considering Abreu had his best years while Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Vladimir Guerrero and others tore up baseball, one might say Abreu will be looked upon as one of the great underrated players in baseball history. But even simpler: Abreu is absolutely one of the greatest Phillies in history. He opens the top 10.
Posts: 1650 Tim Malcolm
Bret, you realize stats are good, correct? In fact, I might actually say they’re the best evaluators of talent, you know?
By the way, Mike Schmidt was never a leader. You all gonna bitch about him being in the top 10?
Posted: 07:48 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 1650 Tim Malcolm
Section 113: Best swing I’ve ever seen. But you know, I’ve only been alive for 24 years. So my opinion means little.
Posted: 07:49 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Ed R.
You want new school? I’ll give you new school…
Player 1:
WAR (wins above replacement)–29.3
Player 2:
WAR–48.1
Player 3:
WAR–20.2
Player 1: Rollins
Player 2: Abreu
Player 3: Luzinski
Abreu’s way ahead, performance-wise. Now if you want to judge players by things other than performance–which is fine by me, to an extent, after all, we’re talking “Greatest Phillies” not “Best Stats”–than his perceived attitude problems are an issue. But come on, it’s not like he played on great teams. Is it his fault if he takes a walk and there’s nobody behind him who can drive him in?
I’m also not a big fan of the idea that trading him was like lifting some sort of curse. If that’s true then what about Thome?
Posted: 07:57 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 From Section 113
ED—> Good stat…I mean stats are bad.
I actually think signning Thome was HUGE for the franchise. It showed they would pony up money and that was the beginning of taking the team in the right direction. THough it hit a few bumps along the way (Garcia/Eaton/Millwood) we still got a ton of hope ou tof that signning.
Posted: 08:02 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck P
Bobby was indeniably talented…his swing is picturesque. His eye is one of the best in the game. I can’t put him in my top 10 because he lacks so much of the other stuff that makes a player special… I won’t do it. Hamels’ Left Hand made a good point… it might be because I’m so angry that a player like Bobby Abreu can even be considered. Say what you want, he’s not an all-franchise player on almost any other team.
Posted: 08:11 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
This pretty much sums up Bobby Abreu to me:
“Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.” ~Toby Harrah, 1983
or the more recent:
“Statistics are like bikinis. They show a lot, but never everything.”
–Lou Piniella
Posted: 08:25 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Jayson Stark (does anyone NOT like Jayson Stark?)…he’s been loyal to the Phillies and Phillies’ fans over the years, and in 2007 he listed his Top 10- Most Overrated Players in Baseball (Active Players):
1. Barry Zito
2. JD Drew
3. Andruw Jones
4. Juan Pierre
5. BOBBY ABREU
6. Brian Giles
7. Alfonso Soriano
8. Richie Sexson
9. Bob Wickman
10. Jeff Suppan
On Bobby Abreu:
“Boy, do people love arguing about this fellow. Who can blame them?
The folks who only peruse Abreu’s numbers don’t just wonder what he’s doing on this list. They wonder when he’s getting inducted into the Hall of Fame. How multitalented is Bobby Abreu? Well, he does happen to be the only active player with a .300 career batting average, a .400 on-base percentage, 200 homers and 250 stolen bases. And his .909 career OPS tops the OPS of Sammy Sosa, Chase Utley, Derrek Lee and many, many, many other famed batsmiths out there.
But there sure are a lot of people who watched him in Philadelphia who think Abreu is the poster boy for an unquantifiable division of the All-Overrated Team — players who mysteriously seem to be less than the sum of their spectacular numbers.
When people battle me on this guy, I always sum it up this way: As great as Bobby Abreu can be, he lacks that all-important Derek Jeter gene. There is no voice in his head, screaming: “This ball has to be caught.” Or: “That runner on third has to be driven in.” In Philadelphia, where he was the centerpiece of the franchise, that one flaw showed up way too glaringly. Now, in New York, as the Yankees flounder, they’re getting aggravated over the same stuff. Funny how that happens. “
Posted: 08:31 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 From Section 113
DON M—> “When people battle me on this guy, I always sum it up this way: As great as Bobby Abreu can be, he lacks that all-important Derek Jeter gene. There is no voice in his head, screaming: “This ball has to be caught.” Or: “That runner on third has to be driven in.” In Philadelphia, where he was the centerpiece of the franchise, that one flaw showed up way too glaringly. Now, in New York, as the Yankees flounder, they’re getting aggravated over the same stuff. Funny how that happens. “”
As an Abreu lover I agree for the most part, though I think he wasn’t as clutchless as we all think he was. Still my whole point is he wasn’t a center peice, we tried to make him one. For what he was, he was a spectacular player. There are currently 3 players in Philly…4 if Hamels can saty healthy (all home grown too) that will have much better careers than Abreu but his stats are undeniably impressive. Stats aren’t everything, but we also tend to make players out to be more than what they are. Sometimes they live up to that hype, sometimes they surpass it, and sometimes they fall short. Abeu was a very good player who fell short on the hype.
A question to any of you: If there were no current Phills listed here, would you think differently on the placement of people like Abreu? Or at least not be as harsh on him? Granted some of you wanting to put him in the 30+ range is a little crazy, still I think the current rosters’ attachment is also interferring with some of our judgement, for better or worse.
Posted: 08:47 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
I just think that you need to look at what was the outcome of this person’s great play..
Military Generals are GREAT if they lead their troops to victory… maybe they weren’t the best actual leaders, but if you got the job done, that to me is better than the guy that didn’t lead his troops home..
a little of the wall there, but my point is that in Phillies History… Rollins should be viewed as “better” and “more productive” and whatever other words you want to use… Abreu is a better defender than people give him credit for, people knock him because he didn’t run into walls… but he was able to play everyday because he played “smart”
Rollins plays everyday too, but he does every single thing you ask of him.. Abreu would have been a great leadoff hitter, but his RBIs would go down so he didn’t want to hit leadoff… but late in the game, when you needed those RBIs.. he would make sure to work that walk and get himself on base!!!
Posted: 08:58 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck P
I wouldn’t think differently… Jimmy Rollins was the only active Phillie that I considered above Abreu, right now… the other guys have a long way to go. Anything can happen in any given season… they could end up playing their entire careers somewhere else and that would change things dramatically, wouldn’t it? Right now, they’re all on track but Bobby’s 8 years of service as a Phillie is enough for me to rank him higher than them… HOWEVER… there were plenty of guys with solid years and personal accolades that I would rank higher than Abreu. Now, that could change when Abreu retires becuase, although he’s not a Phillie, he’s still an active player. Post retirement, his number (doubtedly) could be retired… his likeness could end up in Cooperstown… those things would change my opinion and would move him higher on my list. Those things matter… they carry a great amount of historical significance. Right now, Bobby still has work to do to make his case. And that’s my list… this is Tim’s and his placement is his prerogative.
Posted: 08:59 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 NJ
I think that’s a good point. Bobby Abreu has been a great player but lacks greatness which is what I think hurt him in free agency, seems clubs don’t really know how to value him especially since he was a very good outfielder in a time of some even better outfielders.
Was really sad to see Bobby go when he was traded to the Yankees but it was one of those cases of addition by subtraction. He was the face of a Phillies team at a very disappointing time for the franchise and wasn’t one of those guys who made the guys around him better, that said he deserves to be held in the same breath as many great Phillies but personally I’m not sure I’d have had him up this high and a couple of dozen spots separated from Lieberthal who I think was undervalued just as much.
Posted: 08:59 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Bobby Abreu… Cooperstown???? That’s the funniest joke I’ve heard all day so far, thanks!!
Posted: 09:05 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 NJ
The only way Bobby Abreu ends up in Cooperstown is if it turns out every outfielder ahead of him in the pecking order turns out to be juiced up and even then those guys dogs have a better chance. Abreu’s chances are slimmer than Moyer who will be in the conversation but is an extreme long-shot. Abreu’s would be on a par right now with Andruw Jones and boy that aint happening now.
Posted: 09:13 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck P
BY the numbers…
Maybe everyone is familiar with Baseball reference… they have a couple of HOF monitors. They also list players comparable by age… Abreu is likened to a few HOF’ers and could be HOF’ers (notably, Earl Averill, George Brett and Dave Parker). His HOF monitor is 86 (where, over 100 apparently gets you in) and his HOF standards is 46 (where close to 50 gets you in). A few more good years and Abreu’s numbers will be HOF worthy.
Posted: 09:25 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 From Section 113
CHUCK P—> Fair, I don’t think he’s a HOF. But i get what you are saying.
DON M—> I guess Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Arod, Ryan Sandberg, Don Mattingly, Vlad are all horrible becasue they didn’t win the big one but guys like Chad Durbin, So Taguchi, and Matt Stairs are amazing? Championships help but they shouldn’t be the only factor.
“Military Generals are GREAT if they lead their troops to victory… maybe they weren’t the best actual leaders, but if you got the job done, that to me is better than the guy that didn’t lead his troops home..”
Really? Or is it because history is written by the winners and not by the losers? Is it because we are just happy with the outcome that we can just look over the faults? Remember, George Washington is basically to England what Benedict Arnold is to America.
What did Abreu have when he was here? I mean everyone says he was never that guy but the franchise never did anything to help him until they got Thome. I mean he was here 6+ years before that. They let Schilling go/Rolen go/ they had an atrocious farm. Maybe he wasn’t our great hero like JRoll, but maybe it wasn’t because he was overrated, maybe because it was that he was a different type of player. It’s hard to lead when you aren’t a leader.
Posted: 09:36 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 NJ
Section 113- You can’t put Abreu in the same breat as Cobb or Williams or even A-Rod… Mattingly is more comparable but injuries crippled his chances of landing in the hall.
Linking numbers can miss the plot, Abreu was near but not at the top of his era which has been a very stats friendly era for potentially HOFers. I don’t see how he’d even stand a chance against guys like Biggio, Bagwell or even Sosa and against guys not yet retired no chance against Vlad, Sheffy, Kent etc.
Posted: 09:46 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
It is hard to lead when you aren’t a leader… and how can you be cosidered an “All-Time Great” and “Not a Leader” at the same time?
Hall Of Fame players are supposed to be the guys that are All-Stars, MVPs, Gold Glove, Triple Crown, etc.. players for about a decade…
Bobby Abreu isn’t one of the best players of the past decade… his numbers say he’s good, but he’s not one of the great ones.
…
Ty Cobb is a lifetime .366 hitter
Ted Williams is a lifetime .344 hitter
Ryne Sandberg hit .285, but was the best Offensive 2b for a decade
Mattignly was great from like 1984-1989, not a Hall of Famer in my book
Vladdy is a .323 hitter, and one of the best/cluth/most underrated players in baseball since his Rookie of the Year in 1997
A-Rod is a great.. but you think he would be above say Derek Jeter on an All-Time Yankees list?
Posted: 09:57 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 From Section 113
NJ—> I am not arguing about Abreu and the HOF and comparing him to Cobb as a player. Don M said players who have won it, Gererals who have taking there team home so to speak, are thought of more highly. So if anything, he diminished Cobb, not me. All I said was you can’t hold Abreu to that as leaders like Cobb/Mattingly/Biggio who were actual leaders. All I was trying to do was list players who were/ar superior to Abreu and never won a ring. And we don’t knock them at all.
By the way if people want to complain about Abreu not leading off where is the out cry about Biggio holding on to get 3,000 hits. That team needed to rebuild but couldn’t let him go. Just remember that there is more than 2 sides to every issue.
Posted: 10:00 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 From Section 113
Don M–>
I like Abreu and can even agree that he got a long leash here in Philly, he was never that guy who won us anything, and for that it was disappointing, TRUST ME, I wanted him to get us to the playoffs so bad.
But at the same time he put up stats that many can and will never do. How many franchises can say they had a player in his prime for 8 yrs and when that player retired he had a .300 avg/ .400 obp???? Not many that’s for sure.
Also to be clear — I DON’T think Abreu is a HOFer. Unless he gets 3,000 (1,054 away) and keeps his avg around if not higher than .300. If he gets 3,000 hits but his avg falls to .270-.280 he shouldn’t be a HOFer.
Posted: 10:07 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Any comparison between Ty Cobb and Bobby Abreu is ridiculous to begin with..
my point was that, to me… an All-Star, Gold Glove, MVP type player in Rollins, who lead the team to the postseason, and the World Series
Is more important in Phillies history than Bobby Abreu, who put up some nice stats for a few years, but didn’t ever want to carry the team on his shoulders
Granted the World Series isn’t the final determining factor.. but I’d say they are about a toss-up.. and Rollins’ postseason success gives him the distinct edge over Abreu
Posted: 10:09 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Abreu isn’t even close to a Biggio in my mind, multiple Gold Gloves (that were actually deserved) and All-Star appearances.
but the main difference is that Biggio is the guy wanted the bat in his hands with the game on the line.. Abreu wanted to be standing on First Base already, having just improved his OBP% with that Ball-4.
Posted: 10:12 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Bruce
Section 113 says~ “…more importantly, NO CURRENT Philly should have been eligible. Burrel/Schilling yes, Howard/Utley/JRoll/ect NO. This would eliminate a ton of problems and allow us to better view where we could see these players be in terms of the franchise’s all time greatest. Also this would allow more flexibility with the list, even though it does exist as is, with the names in there it just creates more problems. ”
I made that argument to Tim a few times early on. However, while I’m in disagreement with MANY of his ranked choices, I’ll echo the same comment by several here that it’s Tim’s list. I don’t take this list seriously as some do but rather that I enjoy reading some historical notes on great players of several generations past. And I do appreciate that Tim has given much time and effort in research for this list. Obviously, as Tim mentioned his age (24) which one can consider it as a handicap (smile) in evaluating players as recently as 25 years ago, he has to rely on statistics and eyewitness accounts from writers of past. Tim is part of the sabermetrics community who believes they have the best method of accurate evaluation when comparing players of different eras. I won’t argue with their method inspite of reading certain articles by writers that suggest there are flaws (such as OPS vs OBP) in such evaluation. Sabermetrics is a welcome addition and there is a need for it but shouldn’t be consider the “bible” of all statistical methods.
I would be redundant in pointing out other considerations (including the intangibles) as so many here expressed those thoughts. So let’s just respect and enjoy reading his notes on players of his choice and keep in mind his perspective as a fan.
Posted: 10:28 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 From Section 113
Biggio was pretty bad early in his career in the playoffs, Actually I believe except for that crazy series against Atl in 2005 and maybe 1 other yr, he was horrible in the playoffs.
I’d be willing to bet that stat wise their “close and late” and RISP over their 8 yr primes are close.
ALSO Biggio had Bagwell on his team. And for a couple years he had Alou, Bell, and Berkman. Who did Abreu have? Pat I will just look at strike 3 Burrell or maybe Scott I can’t wait to get out of here Rolen.
And while I always liked Biggio, nothing pissed me off more when he dragged himself out there every year trying to creap closer to 3,000 hits while just being a shadow of his former self. Yeah he score 100 runs, but he couldn’t hit for avg anymore and slowed down a ton.
Posted: 10:37 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Ed R.
Okay, I “borrowed” the following analysis of Abreu’s clutchness or lack thereof from here:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2005/12/is-bobby-abreu.html
And no, I don’t really care what Jayson Stark, Toby Harrah, and Lou Piniella have to say if it conflicts with the facts. One of the consistent themes in the rise of sabermetrics has been that smart guys who’ve been around baseball forever can be totally wrong when it comes to evaluating players. The numbers show that Abreu was a very good player, and that he didn’t fail in the clutch.
This all goes back to an old problem. Not only in Philadelphia, but especially true in Philadelphia, is the fact that fans like players who look like they’re working hard and squeezing every last ounce out of their talent. Abreu never looked that way, so he ended up with a bad reputation.
So he didn’t want to run into the wall? Big deal. Call me strange, but I like the idea of my best players staying healthy. Sure, I love and appreciate the Rowand-breaks-his-face story, but I didn’t love the aftermath when the team had to go without him because he was intent on showing his desire and toughness.
So he wasn’t a leader? Again, big deal. Who could have been a leader with a sociopath like Bowa managing? And what was he supposed to do when Manuel came, turn into a leader all of a sudden? That’s what we bought Thome for, isn’t it? Also, how was he supposed to lead a team when management was already starting to show the disdain that would get him traded to the Yanks for a handful of non-magic beans? Also, does anyone believe that Jimmy Rollins is going to be led by anyone other than Jimmy Rollins? How was Abreu supposed to lead a team when a really prominent player like Rollins was clearly unwilling to listen to any good advice?
I’m happy to agree that Abreu deserves to be knocked for not wanting to bat leadoff. That’s certainly selfish, and bad for the team. Let’s remember, though, that Rollins, who had a really crappy OBP, didn’t want to bat anywhere else.
===================================================
I noticed some people saying that Bobby Abreu isn’t clutch. I figured it would make sense to put some numbers behind it to see if it’s just a perception that caught on or if it’s true.
Reader Bill already weighed in with Abreu’s September batting averages in a different post, so I’ll begin by expanding on that to include Abreu’s full AVG/OBP/SLG lines in recent Septembers.
First, his career line: .303/.411/.512. Can’t complain about that.
September 2005: .250/.395/.396
September 2004: .326/.483/.500
September 2003: .308/.432/.407
September 2002: .366/.455/.591
OK, it looks like his power numbers were way down this season and in ’03 in September. But when you’re looking at a sample of 100 at-bats each year, and he has alternated between an excellent and subpar SLG, is it really statistically significant? I don’t think so. Plus, with OBPs like that, it’s not as if he tanked.
How about everyone’s favorite Close and Late stats? Close and Late refers to when the game is in the 7th inning or later and is a one run affair or tied.
Close and Late ’05: .298/.422/.571
Close and Late ’04: .255/.445/.412
Close and Late ’03: .318/.423/.420
Close and Late ’02: .303/.444/.495
First off, no one can complain that Abreu wasn’t clutch in 2005 overall. He had a two-year run where his power numbers were down in late game situations, but does that really make him “unclutch?” Maybe Abreu focused on drawing a walk or hitting a single instead of going for the fences. His OBPs were all above his career average.
Finally, let’s see where Abreu stands with runners in scoring position.
RISP 2005: .303/.444/.500
RISP 2004: .322/.432/.624
RISP 2003: .361/.473/.574
RISP 2002: .313/.441/.556
He’s consistently destroyed pitchers in every way with runners in scoring position.
Some analysts don’t believe clutch hitting even exists, and the inconsistencies in this one sample seem to support that. Regardless, there’s no clear conclusion that Bobby Abreu is “not clutch.”
Posted: 11:28 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
So Abreu is the most clutch “Non Team Leader” in Phillies history.. nice!
Abreu has a minimal impact on Phillies history when compared to Jimmy Rollins.. and maybe that is a seperate list or something, but when I think of Great, I don’t think of Bobby Abreu
Good, yea…. Very Good, yea… GREAT? No…
Posted: 11:53 AM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Woodman
ALL RANK HIGHER THAN ABREU: Ennis, Bunning, Magee, Hamilton, Luzinski, Gravath, Schilling, Callison, Cy Williams & Rollins.
Posted: 01:52 PM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Rote
you have absolutely killed the credibility of this site by putting abreu at #10.
Posted: 03:13 PM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 Memphis
I tend to agree with Woodman and the Abreu skeptics. I do see Bobby as a very good, never great player. Never had “it”, never had buzz, never seemed to play with fire, never really connected with me as a fan. Put him in the Hall of Very Good. I respect the quiet producer thing about him, and I love the stats, but his utter lack of signature moments has to hurt him (aside from the HR Derby). I could see the argument for Top 20 (maybe just ahead of Burrell, 22, and Callison, 20); maybe Top 15 (hard to believe though); Top 10 you’re talking Phillies royalty, and I think that’s an awkward fit. It’s a shame he put up such monster numbers on bad teams (though by 2004, 2005, we were in contention). As Griffin said, through a modern lens (OBP, power/speed numbers, etc.), he certainly looks great compared to players from other eras, etc. He was not, however, a consistent league leader in anything however, never really a solid MVP candidate (vs. Cravath for example). Some years he popped up into the Top 5 in certain categories.
Just looking at baseball-reference.com at the Abreu years… taking a look at OBP and OPS+ and any other noteworthy stats:
1998, age 24, .409 OBP (1st on team), 136 OPS+ (2nd to Rolen’s 139)
1999, age 25, .446 OBP (1st on team, 3rd in NL), 146 OPS+ (1st on team), 3rd in NL in BA, 5th in runs, 1st in triples
2000, age 26, .416 OBP (1st on team), 143 OPS+ (1st on team)
2001, age 27, .393 OBP (1st on team), 141 OPS+ (1st on team), 4th in the NL in doubles and steals, 3rd in walks
2002, age 28, .413 OBP (1st on team), 151 OPS+ (1st on team, Burrell 146), 1st in doubles, this is his best OPS+ year, by comparison (the top 5 in the NL), Bonds: 268, Giles 177, Sosa 160, Guerrero 160, Edmonds 158
2003, age 29, .409 OBP (1st on team, Thome .385), 136 OPS+ (2nd on team, Thome 154)
2004, age 30, .428 OBP (1st on team, 5th in NL, Thome .396), 145 OPS+ (1st on team, Thome 144), 4th in NL in runs and doubles, 3rd in steals
2005, age 31, .405 OBP (1st on team, ahead of Lofton, Burrell, and Utley), 126 OPS+ (4th on team, behind Burrell, Utley and half season of Howard)
2006, age 32, half season, .427 OBP (1st on team, just ahead of Howard), 118 OPS+ (4th on team, behind Burrell, Utley and Howard)
He was arguably the best offensive player on the Phillies for 7-8 seasons, certainly the 5 seasons before Thome arrived in 2003. But some of those teams were awful. That was just a regrettable, forgettable stretch of seasons. (Sort of like Ibanez’s production last year, a good thing in a tough situation or misleading?)
Again, compared to other Phillies he played with, he’s a monster. Compared to other players in the NL at that time, he’s very good, but not a Top 5, Top 10 player. And you’d think he doesn’t have the longevity to rank high on career Phillie totals. But… 8th all-time in runs (tied with Del Ennis with 1000 fewer plate appearances). 7th in total bases. 3rd in doubles. 8th in HRs. 8th in RBI. 2nd in walks behind only Schmidt. 7th in steals. And modern sabermetric stats love him, too.
I think this debate may speak to two things: (1) There just aren’t that many VERY GOOD offensive players in the team’s long history (again Burrell ranked 22, Callison 20), so it’s easy for a modern stat machine to sneak on to the all-time lists. And (2) his career Phillie numbers may not look as impressive in 5-10-15 years, so this is sort of a favorable point in time to rank Abreu.
I do respect the numbers, but I’d rank 6-8 recently mentioned guys above him.
Posted: 04:16 PM on March 18, 2009
Posts: 0 ryan
abreu in the top ten??????? i am officially not paying any attention to the rest of this list. i’m still mad about pete rose.
Posted: 08:24 PM on March 21, 2009
Posts: 0 h2h corner ~ Keep, Trade or Drop (III)? | Fantasy Baseball 101
[...] corner outfielders who have similar value, right? Wrong. Bobby Abreu was my 24th ranked hitter, I unabashedly believe in him to be a 20-20 talent with great OBP/AVE potential, which leads to great run scoring and RBIs, [...]
Posted: 07:58 PM on April 9, 2009
Posts: 0 Bostwick
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Posted: 01:45 AM on August 23, 2009
Posts: 0 iSportacus » Blog Archive » Jayson Werth: A Poor Man’s Bobby Abreu
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Posted: 11:02 AM on July 20, 2010