Phillies Nation

he was also soft spoken and timid in front of the cameras. when he recorded his 4000th striekout, he just went into the locker room with the team and had some champagne, no big celebration or anything.

His 72 season was amazing. And to think it was with a miserable team too…

One of the best!

I’m not going to argue with you for the overzealous “maybe the best single pitching season in baseball history” comment bc I know your wrong.

But, great pick as #2!

So exciting! I’ve been keeping my fingers crossed for weeks and I can’t believe we’re all finally ready to step forward and honor the great Tom Marsh as the greatest Philly of all-time. Five career dingers. .246 average. Boom – #1.

1972 was awesome, i was really pissed when they traded rick wise. he was really all a phillie fan had to cheer about. any way lefty was lights out, do you know the sporting news , back then baseballs bible, based in st louis used to pick a player of the year, that year they switched to man of the year and gave the award to charley finley, i guess they didnt want to dis augie busch, or maybe augie busch owned the sporting news. i always thought that was sour grapes, another reason not to like the cardinals. i know lefty hated them.

guys let not forget that carlton didnt spend his entire career with the phils, just his best years, he had some great years (including a 20 win season) with the cardinals as well. you have to take his phillie tenure into cosideration

I think the choice between #1 and #2 on this list comes down to the fact of who gets mentioned first when you think of the greatest Phillie ever. The answer will, more likely than not, be Mike Schmidt. No offense to Lefty, but Mike Schmidt is Phillie Baseball.

“Mike Schmidt was great, but hes not in the same category as Lefty”? Are you kidding me? To say either isnt in the same category as the other proves how little you know about Philly sports. Those two were very easy choices as #1 and #2, how can you come back with a comment like that. Mike Schmidt was the BEST 3rd basemen of all time, not just on the Phillies. Not at that level. PLEASE. Carlton is a great choice to be in a “debate” about Mike Schmidt, but I agree with the placements. I know the #1 choice will get some not so great feedback, because some people didnt like him, but his skill can not be argued (if you have a clue) and his attitude, much like what therookie300 said, “Mike Schmidt is Phillie Baseball.

FYI, http://www.thebaseballpage.com place Mike Schmidt as #1 all time for 3rd Base, Carlton #12 for pitchers. I feel Carlton at #12 is a bit low, I think top 10, but that should tell you something about what non Philly fans think about the two of them.

I guess that makes Steve Jeltz #1 on the survey! Congrats Steve,Job well done and never embarrassed by showing off that Soul-Glo look….you did Eriq LaSalle proud.

Not my #2 choice, but a good one nevertheless!

Okay, so I have to dispel some things people are saying here:

For starters Steve Carlton was not in the top 5 or even top 10 pitchers of all time. He’s probably somewhere around 15. He also wasn’t the best lefty of all time. He’s tied for 3rd and no Koufax was not in the top 3. Off the top of my head the following pitchers were better than Carlton and I’ll name the 3 lefties in there also this is off the top of my head and in no order:

Walter Johnson(The best pitcher of all time)
Roger Clemens(don’t bring up roids because our own boy Mike Schmidt did amphetamines)
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Lefty Grove(L)
Randy Johnson(L)
Pedro Martinez(Yes, Pedro was better)
Greg Maddux(Yes, Maddux was better)
Christy Mathewson
Tom Seaver(I know I know…he’s a Met)
Cy Young
Carl Hubbel
Satchel Paige
Bob Gibson
Kid Nichols
Warren Spahn(L and tied with Carlton arguably better though)

I’d say he’s tied for 15th with Warren Spahn. That’s still incredibly good in my honest opinion. The reason Sandy Koufax is in fact not better than Steve Carlton is because his arm fell off rather fast. Carlton threw almost 3 thousand more innings than Koufax.

Mike Schmidt is the best 3B of all time. There really is no questioning this. Only guys that come close in my honest opinion are Chipper Jones and A-Rod.

As for the person that said the Phillies all time rotation is #6 of all time, I think that could be a pretty accurate statement. Maybe even top 5, however, the teams you mentioned to compete with the Phils just aren’t the right teams. You totally left off the Braves. Maddux, Spahn, Niekro, Glavine, Smoltz…um yeah that’s probably the best ever or 2nd to the Red Sox…Young, Pedro, Clemens, and Ruth. #5…who cares? Those 4 could handle the load themselves. The Yankees only really have Whitey Ford. After that their all time rotation kind of sucks. The Cubs have Grover Cleveland in his later years, Fergie Jenkins and if you want to count Maddux in his early years then I guess him too, but I don’t count him with the Cubs. The Giants are an interesting team. Christy Mathewson, Carl Hubbel, Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, and I don’t know who after that. Definitely competes with the Red Sox as best ever. Cardinals…don’t know outside of Bob Gibson. Dodgers had Koufax, Sutton, Drysdale, Hershiser, and Velenzuela. That’s pretty good too. If I had to rank with what I’ve named I’d go Red Sox, Giants, Braves, Phillies, Dodgers. There are other teams I’m unsure of. The Indians can also use Cy Young, and also have Bob Feller Mel Harder, and, Bob Lemon. That’s pretty good, but probably not top 5. Walter Johnson pitched for the Senators which are now the Twins. Walter Johnson was the best pitcher of all time, who knows who else backs him up. I guess there’s Jack Morris. So yeah, the Phillies seem to be #4.

Last point I want to make is that Lefty did not have the best pitching season of all time. I’d say it was in the top 15 somewhere if you don’t count some pitchers multiple years ie Pedro’s 99 and 00, but there are a few off the top of my head that are better. Pedro’s 00. Sandy Koufax’s 1966. Bob Gibson’s 1968. Walter Johnson’s 1913. Randy Johnson’s 02. Greg Maddux’s 95. Lefty Grove’s 1931. Cy Young’s 01. Grover Cleveland’s 1915. Christy Mathewson 1905. Dwight Gooden’s 85. Roger Clemens 97. Kevin Brown’s 96. These are just some of them off the top of my head. I know you’ll probably all try and disagree with me, but that’s fine. I know Steve Carlton’s 72 season was ridiculous, but there were better seasons than that and I just named 12 that were better. With all of that being said. Pedro’s 00 season was the best pitched season in MLB history. It was just ridiculous. A 291 ERA+…wtf?!

Anyway, I’m done ranting. Hope you all like this tidbit of baseball history.

I totally forgot Kid Nichols also pitched for the Braves which probably edges them to #2. Also for the Red Sox I forgot Tiant, Smokey Joe Wood, and that Lefty Grove spent a good part of his career there too. As for the Twins…Johan Santana backs up Walter Johnson pretty well.

Sandy Koufax was the best lefty in baseball after 1960 and Super Steve probably rates second best.

Long drive, could it be!?! Number 500!!

Too many good debates going on here… looking at Phil’s list, I’m in agreement for the most part HOWEVER if you’re going to leave off Sandy Koufax (which is fine by me), I would not place Pedro Martinez ahead of Carlton, either. Pedro, one of the most dominating pitchers of my generation, has only had 6 and a half “magical” seasons (and only two 20 win seasons) and, by most accounts, his arm has fallen off. Carlton had six 20 win seasons and put it together over a span of 20 years. Longevity always skews things… often in the wrong direction. Don Sutton pitched an eternity on some good teams and was able to rack up 300 wins but many believe that he’s not really Hall of Fame worthy. SOOO…. if you’re list is compiling the nastiest pitchers of all time, unarguably, Koufax deserves to be on the list. If you’re talking about most accomplished pitchers of all time, he might not but neither does Pedro. Ya dig?

difference between pedro anf koufax is that pedro was dominant for over a decade. his arm didnt fall off till 06. he was also way more dominant in his prime than koufax was

Man, I know it’s not a popular opinion but, I really hated those blue and maroon uniforms.

Phil–>

Yeah I was confusing when I stated the Phills could have the #5-#6 best rotation ever. I meant those teams I listed as possibly competing with them, not being in front of them. But when I looked at it we really do have a top 5 rotation. I thought the yanks would be close with their history but they don’t hve that many, though they might have the all time greatest bullpen with Goose and Mariano.

Anyways, I just think Koufax was so much better because he never declined dur to ineffectiveness, he declined due to severe arthiritis. It took a medical condition for him to stop playing, not being crushed by AAAA guys or dragging his career threw injuries. He went out on top.

Also his 4-5 yrs were more dominant than anyone else. He was so special that just off those 4-5 yrs he was a 1st ballot HOFer. That says something. Carlton is elite, but Koufax is immortal.

**Also, I would take Pedro in his prime against anyone, anywhere, anytime.

@ Greeninil – I also remember that game. Wasn’t Ron Stone sent down to the minors by GM John Quinn because he didn’t hustle on that 9th inning bunt double play in front of the capacity crowd?

John Quinn’s (Old school super bastard) last trade as Phillies GM was Carlton for Wise.

@ From Section 113 – To pitch like Carlton is super-human, but to pitch like Koufax is divine.

chuck p when i get home ill post the stats proving why pedro and lefty are better than koufax. stop using wins as an argument. that means nothing. ill explain that more in depth too.

Okay, so 1st I’ll debunk the wins thing. This is completely hypothetical but I just want to show how wins is a team related stat. I’m going to do this in 2 different ways.

1. If Walter Johnson had a bunch of 8 year olds as his offense they obviously wouldn’t be able to score runs off major league pitching. Would that make him not a good pitcher anymore because he couldn’t win games?

2. This is also very hypothetical but compare pitcher A and pitcher B. Also take into account that both pitchers pitch in similar ballparks ie both pitchers or hitters parks.

Pitcher A’s stat line for one season
0-30 IP: 270 GS: 30 ERA: 1.00 Let’s up exactly 1 run a game and his offense never scores one run for him.

Pitcher B’s stat line for one season
30-0 IP: 270 GS: 30 ERA: 5.00 Let’s up exactly 5 runs per game and his offense scores exactly 6 for him.

Who is the better pitcher? I hope that gets my point across.

Now onto the bigger thing at hand. Koufax vs Pedro vs Carlton

For starters Pedro did not pitch in a pitcher friendly park. Fenway is very much hitter friendly. I’m not sure about the stadiums that the Expos pitched in. Anyway, with all of that said ERA+ adjusts for the era a pitcher pitched in and the park(s) they pitched in.

Koufax
ERA+: 131 IP: 2324.3 He had 6 good seasons the last 5 of which being dominant. Everything before that was about league average or less than league average. His 5 dominant seasons look like this: ERA+ of 141 159 187 160 and 190. All very, very good numbers. But he only sustained it for 5 years. Great peak, but his arm fell off.
Pedro
ERA+ 154 IP: 2782.7 He had 12 good seasons 8 of which were ridiculously dominant including 2 that were considered to be 2 of the best pitching seasons of all of baseball. He did both of them in Fenway which is hitters friendly. Furthermore his 00 season IS the best season in baseball history. His 8 dominant seasons looked like this: ERA+ 219 163 243 291 189 202 210( all of those years were in a row between 1997 and 2003) then again in 05 he had a 145.
Carlton
ERA+ 115 IP: 5217.3 He had 13 good seasons 5 of which were dominant. Carlton’s were never consistent and were scattered about. His ERA+ in his dominant years were 164 182(his magical season in 72) 153 162 and 150.

The difference between Carlton and Koufax is that he had the same amount of dominant years that weren’t as good, but he sustained a longer above average pitcher for the double time Koufax did. The reason Pedro is better than Carlton is because Pedro had 1 less good season than Carlton but out of those good seasons Pedro had 3 more that were dominant, and on top of that his dominance was leaps and bounds better than Carlton.

Pedro had arguably the best peak in baseball history if not the beast peak. 7 years in a row of being the best pitcher in baseball is no easy task, especially in the steroid era and Pedro wasn’t on them. Once again ERA+ adjusts for the era. Carlton and Koufax both pitched in pitcher friendly eras when the offenses just weren’t as good as the pitching was and Pedro pitched in the steroid era when hitters were hitting home runs left and right.

I hope all of this information can help to show why I think and know that Pedro is the best out of these 3 pitchers.

Also to section 113: He did go out on top, but he still went out none the less. Most players stick around longer than they need to. It’s just what they do. Their numbers take a hit from it. Mickey Mantel was upset because he didn’t retire with a .298 career BA. He could have had he retired a year earlier than he did. You also contradicted yourself. You said Koufax had the best peak in baseball history(which he didn’t not even 2nd), but then you said you’d take Pedro in his peak over anyone else(which I agree with besides maybe Walter Johnson’s peak.) I don’t understand how Koufax is immortal.

james, thanks for putting that up there, i really appreciate your contributions to this site very informative. i know about 10 people who told me they were at that game, what i heard was that richie allen led off the game with a walk, and koufax retired the next 27 batters, he was awesome, i saw him pitch the next year, it was a cold april day. amazing bunning pitches a perfecto not even 3 weeks later. i dont really care for the bickering about who was better,but for a big game i would take koufax.

PHIL–>

Oh I understand with all your points and agree with most. I make the statement all the time, that wins are overrated stats, at least to some degree, a pitcher still has to win.

I think as of right now, Pedro is the greatest pitcher I have ever seen. Carlton was damn good, but I was not old enough to see his entire career, where as I have with Pedro.

BUt when accounting for Lefties, I just feel like Koufax’s 5 yrs are insane. I think all this stat huntung has also made me more appreciative of Randy Johnson. Man was that guy filthy in his prime.