Oh I understand with all your points and agree with most. I make the statement all the time, that wins are overrated stats, at least to some degree, a pitcher still has to win.

I think as of right now, Pedro is the greatest pitcher I have ever seen. Carlton was damn good, but I was not old enough to see his entire career, where as I have with Pedro.

BUt when accounting for Lefties, I just feel like Koufax’s 5 yrs are insane. I think all this stat huntung has also made me more appreciative of Randy Johnson. Man was that guy filthy in his prime.

Carlton was better but I agree with that statement 1000%

Check out the link :
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI196406040.shtml

1. If Walter Johnson had a bunch of 8 year olds as his offense they obviously wouldn’t be able to score runs off major league pitching. Would that make him not a good pitcher anymore because he couldn’t win games?

2. This is also very hypothetical but compare pitcher A and pitcher B. Also take into account that both pitchers pitch in similar ballparks ie both pitchers or hitters parks.

Pitcher A’s stat line for one season
0-30 IP: 270 GS: 30 ERA: 1.00 Let’s up exactly 1 run a game and his offense never scores one run for him.

Pitcher B’s stat line for one season
30-0 IP: 270 GS: 30 ERA: 5.00 Let’s up exactly 5 runs per game and his offense scores exactly 6 for him.

Who is the better pitcher? I hope that gets my point across.

Now onto the bigger thing at hand. Koufax vs Pedro vs Carlton

For starters Pedro did not pitch in a pitcher friendly park. Fenway is very much hitter friendly. I’m not sure about the stadiums that the Expos pitched in. Anyway, with all of that said ERA+ adjusts for the era a pitcher pitched in and the park(s) they pitched in.

Koufax
ERA+: 131 IP: 2324.3 He had 6 good seasons the last 5 of which being dominant. Everything before that was about league average or less than league average. His 5 dominant seasons look like this: ERA+ of 141 159 187 160 and 190. All very, very good numbers. But he only sustained it for 5 years. Great peak, but his arm fell off.
Pedro
ERA+ 154 IP: 2782.7 He had 12 good seasons 8 of which were ridiculously dominant including 2 that were considered to be 2 of the best pitching seasons of all of baseball. He did both of them in Fenway which is hitters friendly. Furthermore his 00 season IS the best season in baseball history. His 8 dominant seasons looked like this: ERA+ 219 163 243 291 189 202 210( all of those years were in a row between 1997 and 2003) then again in 05 he had a 145.
Carlton
ERA+ 115 IP: 5217.3 He had 13 good seasons 5 of which were dominant. Carlton’s were never consistent and were scattered about. His ERA+ in his dominant years were 164 182(his magical season in 72) 153 162 and 150.

The difference between Carlton and Koufax is that he had the same amount of dominant years that weren’t as good, but he sustained a longer above average pitcher for the double time Koufax did. The reason Pedro is better than Carlton is because Pedro had 1 less good season than Carlton but out of those good seasons Pedro had 3 more that were dominant, and on top of that his dominance was leaps and bounds better than Carlton.

Pedro had arguably the best peak in baseball history if not the beast peak. 7 years in a row of being the best pitcher in baseball is no easy task, especially in the steroid era and Pedro wasn’t on them. Once again ERA+ adjusts for the era. Carlton and Koufax both pitched in pitcher friendly eras when the offenses just weren’t as good as the pitching was and Pedro pitched in the steroid era when hitters were hitting home runs left and right.

I hope all of this information can help to show why I think and know that Pedro is the best out of these 3 pitchers.

I meant no harm by my comment! But I get your drift.

Again, great pick for #2!

John Quinn’s (Old school super bastard) last trade as Phillies GM was Carlton for Wise.

@ From Section 113 – To pitch like Carlton is super-human, but to pitch like Koufax is divine.

Carlton pitched a complete game, Seaver went 8.

Willie Mays hit a home run in the top of the 8th with one on to put the Mets ahead, the last 2 runs of the game. This was Willie’s swan song year with the Mets before retiring. The entire crowd cheered him, not just the Mets fans who’d come down from NY.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI197205210.shtml

Yeah I was confusing when I stated the Phills could have the #5-#6 best rotation ever. I meant those teams I listed as possibly competing with them, not being in front of them. But when I looked at it we really do have a top 5 rotation. I thought the yanks would be close with their history but they don’t hve that many, though they might have the all time greatest bullpen with Goose and Mariano.

Anyways, I just think Koufax was so much better because he never declined dur to ineffectiveness, he declined due to severe arthiritis. It took a medical condition for him to stop playing, not being crushed by AAAA guys or dragging his career threw injuries. He went out on top.

Also his 4-5 yrs were more dominant than anyone else. He was so special that just off those 4-5 yrs he was a 1st ballot HOFer. That says something. Carlton is elite, but Koufax is immortal.

**Also, I would take Pedro in his prime against anyone, anywhere, anytime.