100 Greatest Phillies: 8 – Chuck Klein
Posted by Tim Malcolm, Thu, March 19, 2009 02:00 PM | Comments: 68
100 Greatest Phillies, Posts
Chuck Klein
Outfielder
1928-1933, 1936-1939, 1940-1944
Career w/Phillies: .326 AVG / 243 HR / 983 RBI / 71 SB
Born in Indianapolis in 1904, Chuck Klein earned the nickname “The Hoosier Hammer.” And boy, was he a ballplayer.
The Phillies luckily received Klein. Bashing the ball in 1928 for the Cardinals’ Fort Wayne, Ind., farm team, Klein was about to reach Saint Louis. But Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis ordered the Cards to relinquish the Fort Wayne team because they had two teams in the same minor league; Klein was out for bidding. Somehow, someway, the Phillies actually outbid the Yankees for Klein; instead of joining Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig in the Bronx, Klein would become a Phillie legend.
Klein finished 1928 by hitting 11 home runs for the Phillies, and in 1929 he broke out. He slammed 43 homers, drove in 145 and hit .356. In 1930 he hit .386 with 40 bombs and 170 RBI. Consistently among top performers hitting the ball, Klein came down to Earth a little in 1931, merely hitting 31 homers and driving in 121, but both totals led the National League. His .337 average wasn’t good enough to win a Triple Crown. He came close again in a spectacular 1932 season, hitting .348 (3rd), homering 38 times (1st) and driving in 137 runs (2nd), but it would all come together in 1933. (Still, he led the league in steals that year with 20, earning himself a NL MVP award).
In 1933 Klein hit .368 with 28 home runs and 120 runs batted in, all leading the league and earning himself a Triple Crown (but not the MVP award). It would show that Klein benefited greatly from the Baker Bowl’s short right field, as Klein’s numbers decreased considerably upon arrival in Chicago in 1934.
Klein would return to the Phils twice. Between 1936 and ’39 he had a few nice seasons (104 RBI in ’36, .325 in ’37) but nothing near his totals of his glory years. The Phils would release Klein in ’39, but he’d return again in 1940 as a sporadic pinch hitter and platoon player. After a seven-home run campaign in ’40, Klein dwindled to a shell of his former self. He remained in Philadelphia after retiring, running a bar but drinking heavily. He died in 1958 and was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1980.
And for all the offense Klein exhibited, he was also a strong defensive player, regularly achieving more than 20 assists per season in left field. As far as all-around ballplayers are concerned, Klein was one of the best early ones.
Comment: I wrestled with the ordering of Klein and No. 7 on the list, so they could go either way. I took points off Klein for evaporating so quickly upon his first return to Philadelphia; he truly got help from his ballpark. Still, he was a prodigious player and deserves a top 10 ranking.
Posts: 0 Michael Stubel
Pat Burrell is better than Chuck Klein?
No matter the ballpark, that’s just not right
Posted: 02:31 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 53 R.C. Cowie
Your kidding me right? Burrell > Klien? Right.
Posted: 02:50 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Josh
Wasn’t Pat Burrell already on the list a while ago?
Posted: 02:51 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Albert
Burrell wasn’t on this list already? I think he was??? If he is higher then Klein shame on you. No, that can’t be right, Burrell was definitely already mentioned.
Posted: 02:52 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Justin
Let’s weigh this option Chuck Klein? HOFer!!!!! Pat Burrell? MEDIOCRE AT BEST!!!! His career average is nowhere near the same ballpark as Kleins. I don’t know how Klein falls so far since he’s one of only a few Phillies actually in the Hall he has to be higher than this.
Posted: 02:53 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Josh
Pat was #22. Chill out guys.
Posted: 02:54 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Justin
Yea I apologize I just looked it up after the fact, sorry Tim. Still don’t know who’s better on this list that isn’t a hall of famer, cuz there aren’t very many of them.
Posted: 02:56 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Albert
Ugh thank God. I got really scared for a second!
Posted: 02:56 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Michael Stubel
SORRY! I have been so devoted to this list, but made a mistake this time! Sorry Tim!
Posted: 03:03 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Jim
Guys, Kleins induction to the hall of fame has long been argued about. He He was elected in 1980, over 30 years after he retired, its not like he was a shoe-in or anything. If you look at his numbers and compare them to other hall of famers, youll see he cant really stack up. He hit well in the time in the league when hitting came easy to most batters.
Hes good, i DONT have a hard time believeing there are 7 players better than him.
Posted: 03:09 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Ed R.
Don’t forget, he holds the modern record for assists with 44 in 1930.
Also, in a feat which I doubt will ever be surpassed by a Phillie, he wore six different numbers (1, 3, 8, 26, 29, 36) during his Phillies career.
Those were some days in Philadelphia. Imagine being able to choose whether to go see Chuck Klein or Jimmie Foxx?
Posted: 04:03 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Jim
Ed. R. – alas, seeing jimmie foxx or chuck klein might have been nice but the phils commonly lost 100 games a year and after 1931, the as didnt do much.
Posted: 04:10 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
i think i had klein at 8 on my list. too bad i had schilling at 10 and jroll at 9
Posted: 04:53 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
btw my prediction for the last 7 in this order:
7. Dick Allen
6. Robin Roberts
5. Ed Delahanty
4. Grover Cleveland Alexander
3. Richie Ashburn
2. Steve Carlton
1. Mike Schmidt
Posted: 04:57 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
My prediction for the last 7 in this order:
7. Richie Allen(won’t let me write D*ck)
6. Robin Roberts
5. Richie Ashburn
4. Ed Delahanty
3. Grover Cleveland Alexander
2. Steve Carlton
1. Michael Jack Schmidt
Posted: 04:58 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Statman
Hey guys, by my count the top 7 contains 6 Hall-of-Famers and another player that many think should be there, so placing Klein here isn’t unreasonable. However, I had him higher, because I tend to place greater weight on short-term brilliance over long-term excellence. Is it kosher to speculate on who’s left?
Posted: 05:00 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
This lost also made me think of an all time Phillies team:
C: Darren Daulton
1B: Richie Allen
2B: Chase Utley
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Jimmy Rollins
LF: Ed Delahanty
CF: Richie Asburn
RF: Chuck Klein
Staring Rotation
1: Grover Cleveland Alexander
2: Steve Carlton
3: Robin Roberts
4: Curt Schilling
5: Curt Simmons
Closer: Tug McGraw
Posted: 05:02 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
Statman read my post…it may not be that order I was trying to judge by what Tim might do. Those 7 I named are the last 7 remaining without a doubt. My personal order for them would be:
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Grover Cleveland Alexander
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Steve Carlton
5. Robin Roberts
6. Richie Asburn
7. Richie Allen
Posted: 05:04 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Manny
Tim or Amanda: Some of us are following the WBC and it would be cool to see some news clips or mini analysis for Team USA (after or before the two remaining games), J-Roll and Vic are playing key roles… and they are now in the semifinals.
Posted: 05:04 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Tim Malcolm
I’ll probably do a little on the US in the semis cause of J-Roll and Vic. I’ve alluded to them a little up to this point.
Posted: 05:13 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 ashmidt
chuck klein, what an all american name, would have loved to have seen him play, does anyone know where his bar was ?
Posted: 05:19 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 ashmidt
in the picture, which one is chuck ? and who is the other guy ?
Posted: 05:23 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Statman
Phil: your post at 4:58 came in while I was writing mine. I agree with your top 7, would think your predicted order will be closer than your personal order. For someone like me who likes stats, Ed Delahanty was the leader of the truly legendary 1894 Phils, who averaged nearly 9 runs a game behind a team batting avg. of .349 and still only finished 4th.
Posted: 05:24 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Mike Cardone
Am I the only long time Phillies’ follower who thinks Schmidt was great, but is still overrated?
Look at it this way – Steve Rogers or Bruce Sutter is on the mound with the game on the line. Would you rather have Schmidt batting? Or, Bake McBride?
Posted: 05:24 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Tim Malcolm
Chuck is on the right. I believe it’s Cy Williams on the left.
Posted: 06:37 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Manny
Watching the pregame show of the Korea vs Japan game… they just showed a group of Korean fans, one of them shouted “PHILLIES” —he was wearing a brand new Phillies jersey, he turned around, it said PARK.
Posted: 07:02 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
mike cardone…there is nothing overrated about mike schmidt at all. he has a career ops+ of 147 which is the best of his gene
Posted: 07:17 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
generation* sorry bout that. cell phones suck
Posted: 07:17 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Jim
Mike, if its less than 2 outs, id take schmidt, cause he can atleast hit the ball far enough to sacrifice
548 home runs, 1500 rbis, 150 ops + (50 % better than anyone he ever played with). Not to mention 11 gold gloves and 12 all star selections
In face schmidt is the only position player ever to be considered the best all around player evver, he was solid offensivly and also had stellar defense. brooks robinson may have been a better defensive player but he had nary the offense to back it up.
anyways, well get to schmidt more later when he comes
Posted: 07:35 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Jim
i shoudl ahve said the best all around player AT HIS POSITION (3B)
Posted: 07:36 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 James Kay
That haunting photo of Steel Mill Chuck Klein in his classy Old English P Phillies uniform is timeless. His power and average numbers during his prime Philadelphia years are stellar. He helped define the depression era Phillies offense in much the same fashion as Dick Allen did for the mid-60’s Phillies and Mike Schmidt for the early 80’s teams. No ifs, ands, or buts, Klein is a top 10 Phillie. Even with his bad years factored in, he still finished with a lifetime OPS+ of 137. He was also the first NL player in the 20th century to hit four homers in one game at Pittsburgh’s spacious Forbes Field (not the Bowl). I think he should have finished ahead of the singles hitter Ashburn.
I would love to obtain one of those Old English P Phillies shirts from Klein’s era.
Mike Cardone & Phil, With the game on the line, Shake and Bake McBride or even Downtown Ollie Brown. Not everyone shares Schmidt’s self opinion.
Posted: 07:42 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
Jim, he is the best 3B of all time, but he isn’t the only person to be looked at as the best at his position of all time. Honus Wagner is looked at as the best SS, Ted Williams best LF, Babe Ruth best RF, Lou Gehrig best 1B, and Rogers Hornsby best 2B. Only C and CF ever have multiple people considered best of all time. C you can’t go wrong with Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra and CF you have Mays, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle, etc. to choose from.
Posted: 07:44 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 James Kay
That haunting photo of Steel Mill Chuck Klein in his classy Old English P Phillies uniform is timeless. His power and average numbers during his prime Philadelphia years are stellar. He helped define the depression era Phillies offense in much the same fashion as D. Allen did for the mid-60’s Phillies and Mike Schmidt for the early 80’s teams. No ifs, ands, or buts, Klein is a top 10 Phillie. Even with his bad years factored in, he still finished with a lifetime OPS+ of 137. He was also the first NL player in the 20th century to hit four homers in one game at Pittsburgh’s spacious Forbes Field (not the Bowl). I think he should have finished ahead of the singles hitter Ashburn.
I would love to obtain one of those Old English P Phillies shirts from Klein’s era.
Mike Cardone & Phil, With the game on the line, Shake and Bake McBride or even Downtown Ollie Brown. Not everyone shares Schmidt’s self opinion.
Posted: 07:45 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Greg B
hey, I dig this list, but its hard to keep up with who’s been named and in what order (see Burrell better than Chuck Klien controversy above) is there anywhere you can easily access the list without a ton of backsearching?
Posted: 07:57 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Tim Malcolm
Click the 100 Greatest Phillies tag on the bottom of this page.
Posted: 08:08 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Tim Malcolm
Those uniforms are boss. Easily the best in franchise history. I’d advocate for the Phils to go back to the old-English “P,” but I don’t mind the new alternates at all.
Posted: 08:10 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Mike Cardone
OPS is a nice stat, indeed, especially for Schmidt – and Burrell. Anyone here know what either or both of them hit with men on base? Or, perhaps with men on base and 2 outs? Better still, with men in scoring position? I’ll bet anyone here a cheesesteak that Schmidt is 20 points lower than – say Kurk or Dalton – with men in scoring position and 2 outs. I follow the Phils, but I also played a bit. And I always thought Schmidt was overrated. As I said – a great player. But, not all-time great. Not George Brett great, for instance.
Posted: 08:20 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
hahahahahahahahahahahha Mike Cardone you’re an idiot.
1st of all I didn’t say OPS I said OPS+. Big difference. 2nd of all George Brett isn’t even close to as good as Schmidt was. Mike Schmidt is the best 3B of all time. He was the best hitter of his generation(same generation as George Brett.) He was a way better defensive 3B than Brett was. Yeah, George Brett had a better batting average, so what?
Batting average is a terrible stat to rate a player considering OBP is so much better. Here you go though.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=schmimi01&year=00
Might not have had the best batting average but he had a large sample size and a long career. He may not have gotten a single but he would draw a walk and keep the inning going or hit a big hit like a double or home run instead of slapping a single. His high slugging and OBP in clutch situations shows how clutch he really was. Mike Schmidt is the best Phillie and in the top 20 best players of all time. He’s not overrated at all.
Posted: 08:47 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Georgie
Phil, for those of us old enough to have watched Schmidt play, it did seem like he hit alot of HRs when the game was already won, not when tied or extra innings. I did check those stats you linked, and admittedly I didn’t digest them all because I would be at it until the wee hours, but it looks to me like his stats in extreme clutch situations were not quite as good. I am not saying he doesn’t deserve to be #1 or 2 on Tim’s list, or that he wasn’t a great player, it’s just that on reflection he was not the MOST clutch guy in the world, and some may feel he is overrated for that reason.
Posted: 09:11 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
There’s no way to measure clutch though, Georgie. I agree players can get empty stats but bottom line at the end of the day stats are stats. The guy was an offensive beast. One of the best of all time.
Posted: 09:20 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 James Kay
Schmidt is number one on my and probably everyone else’s lists. And deservedly so. But he had his flaws such as the .196 BA in 1973 confirms. And don’t forget his pathetic display of self pity when he announced his retirement. He should of done jail time for that one. View this and cringe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOPLJQuVm_I
Posted: 09:21 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Georgie
Not denying that Phil, and he was awesome playing 3rd base, especially in his younger years. He would throw himself all over the place to snag the ball, I am a big fan of defense and one of the few people, I think, who would rather see a good pitcher’s duel than the football score games we see today. I liked it when a HR was rare and really appreciated, too many longballs these days, imo. That’s what I love about Feliz, Rollins, Utley, those infield plays rock my world!
Posted: 09:28 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Mike Cardone
Phil, I may be an idiot – hell, let’s just come out and say it – I AM an idiot. But, I’m not dumb enough about baseball to think that Mike Schmidt was a better hitter than George Brett. As for your usage of OPS +, all that does is demonstrate that you’ve never played or coached the game, let alone done the research. If OPS + is so important to your defense of Schmidt, then why is he only FOURTH all time on his OWN team by that stat? http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml ?
Schmidt’s only 10 points ahead of Brett in that obscure stat, while 38 points behind in career batting average (roughly a hit a week over the fullness of a season, big fella).
My point is that they were both great players. But, I have always thought that Schmidt’s gift was his grace more than it was his pure performance. To many Phillies’ fans, he’s Mickey Mantle. To me, he’s more David Wright.
Posted: 09:30 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Georgie
James, that clip is definitely cringe-worthy, yikes! The guy hardly ever showed emotion, that’s what makes it so creepy.
Posted: 09:33 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
I played baseball my whole life until I shattered my wrist and couldn’t anymore. OPS+ compares a player to the rest of the league at the time. It’s not an obscure stat and as a matter of fact even the MLB network is recognizing it when they evaluate players now.
When you compare Mike Schmidt to guys like Ed Delahanty and Richie Allen(I’m not counting Thome or Lajoie because they played a couple of seasons with the Phillies each) you have to take into account that Delahanty died before he could decline and rack up bad seasons towards the end of his career to make his OPS+ plummet and Richie Allen retired before that could happen. You also have to remember that both Allen and Delahanty played weaker defensive positions. 1B and LF are the easiest positions and they are supposed to have the games best sluggers. Thome is in the same boat, and by the time his career is over he’ll slip below Schmidt’s anyway. Nap Lajoie is a freak of nature, and I agree that he is a better player than Schmidt. The other 3 aren’t either.
George Brett might beat Schmidt in BA but Schmidt destroys him in every other offense statistic. Brett had a higher batting average but Schmidt still got on base 11 points more. Schmidt also outslugged him by 50 points. Schmidt was also a way better defender.
Comparing Schmidt to Write might be a fair comparison. I don’t know how Wright’s career might end up, but as of right now Schmidt’s is slightly better offensively(for their years of 23-25). I can’t believe you will say Brett is better because of 1 offensive statistic. That is complete lunacy.
Posted: 09:49 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Jim
Phil you mentioned all those players, like ruth, hornsby, and wagner and williams, who are indeed the best players at there position OFFENSIVELY, but defensivley, even for their time, they were considered poor.
Schmidt is the only guy who has arguable claim to being the best on offense, and defense and therefore the best overall
Posted: 10:31 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Jim
JAMES- the .196 in 1973… his first “full” year in the majors with 132 games, still managed to slug 18 homers and get 60 rbis. he also hit for an ops + of 92 that year, which is by no means a terrible stat for someone in their first full year, he hit just 8 points below the league average, not terrible at all
When you consider he never hit below 122 OPS + for the rest of his career until 1988 (the year before he retired) you start to see what a terror at the plate he really was
Posted: 10:36 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
Oh, okay…I get that, but Wagner is one of the best defensive SS of all time so I won’t back down from him. I don’t know how good Hornsby was defensively though. The CF I named…Mays is probably the best all around player of all time. Best 5 tool player to ever exist. Lou Gehrig was an amazing defensive 1B and offensively was the best. Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra were also both great with the bat and glove.
Posted: 10:37 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Jim
See again you name guys who are average to even good but not great on both sides of the ball.
best example, piazza was way better offensivly than berra and a bit better than bench but he was no where near them on defense so none of them can be said to be the best all around catch until someone comes along that is
Posted: 10:46 PM on March 19, 2009
Posts: 0 Phil
And who did I mention? Wagner? He’s one of the best offensive and defensive SS of all time. Mays…best 5 tool player of all time. Lou Gehrig was great both offensively and defensively as were Bench and Berra.
Posted: 10:54 PM on March 19, 2009