Comments on: Opinion: Park Deserves Fifth Starter

By: Spring Cleaning in Clearwater

Spring Cleaning in Clearwater — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:46:47 +0000

[...] Chan Ho Park won the 5th starter’s spot over J.A. Happ, which shows you that the Phillies were wanted the best arm (right now) in the 5th starter’s spot instead of creating a little more flexibility in the bullpen. Had Happ won the job, newcomer Jack Taschner could have been the second southpaw under Ashburn Alley while Park provided a reliable arm to eat innings. Instead, the Phils will need to decide on Happ vs. Taschner. Kudos to the Phils for having the balls to go with the guy who pitched the best. Tim at Phillies Nation covered Park’s credentials pretty well. [...]

By: Phil

Phil — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:49:26 +0000

I don’t know what the league average whip was in 07, but I can bet that it was lower than 1.44 or around 1.44. Moyer has always had a high whip. Many contact pitchers do not named Brandon Webb and Roy Halladay.

By: Don M

Don M — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:48:59 +0000

1.5 Walks Plus Hits per Innings Pitched (WHIP) is not really good at all.. that means 9 baserunners in 6 innings..

Maybe that is the “average” but that sounds like trouble to me

By: Don M

Don M — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:44:54 +0000

I’m probably one of the most well-said dawgs on this jawn. holla.

By: christopher

christopher — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:44:46 +0000

ERA i’m not surprised on, but WHIP i think he was 1.44 or so in 07, which there would have had to have been some terrific pitching that year for the average to be lower than that.

By: Phil

Phil — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:40:08 +0000

Well said Don M. I like to use this one too. If a pitcher pitches 30 games and 270 innings but lets up 1 run a game and has a 0-30 record with a 1.00 ERA does that make him a bad pitcher?

By: Phil

Phil — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:38:47 +0000

League average ERA in 07 was 4.61. Moyer had a 5.01. Take ball park into account and his ERA+ is 92. League average ERA+ is 100. Moyer was worse than league average in 07. That is like a #4 or #5 starter. I’d give him the nod as a #4 starter since he did eat some innings. If Moyer can stay around his career stats this season(4.19 ERA, 106 ERA+) then he should be a good #3 or great #4 pitcher for us. If he can put up last years #s then he will be a great #3 pitcher for us.

By: Don M

Don M — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:35:18 +0000

MLB Players say that ERA is the most accurate reflection of how good a pitcher is..

The runs that score are your fault..

A guy could give up 10 runs, but if his team scores 11, he gets the win.. so that is a bad stat. But if the guy give up 10 runs, his ERA will be sky high.. a more accurate reflection of how well/poorly he pitched

By: Geoff

Geoff — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:33:53 +0000

he had an era close to 5 in 07….tahts below average….cant recall whip

By: Geoff

Geoff — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:32:52 +0000

Im a big supporter of QS for the majority of the starting pitchers in MLB. A guy with a lot of Quality Starts really gives his team a good chance to win and keeps them in the game. So many analysts always say “he gives you a good chance to win when talking about good starting pitchers” – well tahts what theyre talking about. Can you go deep into games without giving up too many runs along the way – THUS giving your offense a chance to be ahead with what work the pitcher did put it AND not having to put too much stress on your bullpen by only relying on them for two ro three innings. Thats so key to me, tahts what I try and look at. QS is the best measure of that, as is ERA & WHIP. (ERA+ is cool too)

By: christopher

christopher — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:28:54 +0000

also i doubt that moyer’s 07 ERA and WHIP were in fact “below average” in terms of the MLB averages for the season. i’d like to see the stats on that.

By: christopher

christopher — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:27:01 +0000

any pitcher will back up what i just said about contact pitching. do you think it’s some crazy coincidence that moyer would get run support last year and hamels wouldn’t? and that kendrick won as many games as he has in his MLB career?

i agree that wins can be more misleading than ERA and WHIP, but i also maintain that discounting them as a stat is stupid.

By: Phil

Phil — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:25:39 +0000

I personally like ERA+ to rate a pitcher more than anything. It shows how well a pitcher’s ERA is compared to the rest of the league and also factors in the ballpark they pitch in. Cole Hamels ERA last season was a 3.09. If you threw him in PETCO park that probably would have been a 2.70. ERA+ helps to show what a ballpark can do for a pitcher.

By: Geoff

Geoff — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:18:29 +0000

ERA & WHIP arent misleading for starters that play an entire season, wins & losses can be misleading – absolutely – but ERA & WHIP (& Quality Starts above all) are the best measures of a starting pitcher. For a relief pitcher you want to look at K/BB & WHIP or ERA too.

By: Phil

Phil — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:09:00 +0000

I do discount wins. A pitcher is not paid to win a ball game. A pitcher is paid to prevent runs so his offense can score runs. It takes a team effort to win a ball game, not a pitcher.

By: christopher

christopher — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:06:06 +0000

ERA and WHIP are a bit misleading for contact hitters like moyer too though, as he often gets better run support BECAUSE he keeps his defense more active, which has their adrenaline pumping when they’re at the plate. you can’t just discount wins, after all they’re the most important thing when all is said and done.

By: Geoff

Geoff — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:04:33 +0000

Well the point is hes a bigger question mark than the average starter…thats all…

ALSO: DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THEYRE BRINGING BACK THE GRAND SLAM 4 GAME PACKAGES THIS YEAR? I got a few 6 packs already and Im waiting for 4 packs to go on sale…usually its around this time when they start with the 4 packs…

By: Don M

Don M — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:58:48 +0000

Since he was paid way way way below value for what he produced last year.. Lets call it even.. he helped us win the World Series, while getting paid peanuts.

I forget the exact numbers, but I think that Moyer allowed 3 ERs or less in something like 25 of his starts last year.. and I posted earlier that he threw 6.0 IP or more 21 times last year.

Do I expect the same? No, not at all… but did I expect him to have one of the best season in his long career at age 45 or 46 or whatever. No.

So he probably won’t be as good this year as he was last year, but he was arguably the 2nd best SP on the WS champs.. so he’s still good in my book

By: Phil

Phil — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:52:36 +0000

Bruce, Hamels led in ip(227). Hamels tied him in starts 33. I don’t know how many quality starts Hamels had, but I’d venture to say it was as many or more than Moyer. Wins is a useless stat. Hamels got no run support in so many games he lost last year.

By: Geoff

Geoff — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:51:40 +0000

in 07 he had a bad whip and an era of nearly 5…that is BELOW AVERAGE…..Of those 14 wins moyer also had 12 losses…i consider that a below average season for someone like him…

in 08 he was outstanding – truly – i didnt forget – but look at his last few years…i mean other than 08 theres nothing to really celebrate. the point is who shows up? they also gave him an above market contract for someone his age…way way way above both in years and in money.