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A Look at What the Phillies Gave Up

Posted by Ben Seal, Thu, July 30, 2009 11:46 AM | Comments: 97
Minor Leagues, Posts

The rumors began flying weeks ago. If the Phillies were going to pick up a frontline starter at the trade deadline it would ravage the farm system, picking off all the top prospects in one fell swoop and leaving the club’s future uncertain. While it did take a quartet of minor leaguers to bring Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco into the fold yesterday, it wasn’t exactly the four players that had the Delaware Valley split on whether a trade was necessary. Top pitching prospect Kyle Drabek will still be wearing red pinstripes in the near future. Top position prospect Dominic Brown can still look forward to a career in the Phillies outfield, as can the man with the monster stats, Michael Taylor. And J.A. Happ, the potential NL Rookie of the Year, still has a comfortable spot in the rotation – at least for now.

So what did the Phillies give up to acquire the reigning AL Cy Young winner? According to Baseball America, they sent their 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 10th-ranked prospects to the Midwest. The package they gave up is considerable, primarily because three of those players – Carlos Carrasco, Lou Marson and Jason Donald – were playing at triple-A Lehigh Valley, just a call-up away from joining the big club. But the actual impact on the Phils minor league system is not as big as it might seem. Here’s a look at what Philly is losing with each of these prospects.

Carlos Carrasco, RHP – At age 22, it is still far too early to say whether Carrasco is a disappointment, but it is fair to say that his progression through the ranks was not smooth. He boasted the best fastball and changeup in the system, two pitches that made Cole Hamels a World Series MVP. There was plenty to like about the stuff Carrasco brought onto the mound for each of his starts. But with that fantastic arm came a lack of composure, the one characteristic that almost always defines quality major league pitchers. He was infamous in the minors for letting one bad pitch snowball into a disastrous inning, allowing his great ability to get lost in the fray. Though he made three trips to the Futures Game before this year, Carrasco’s performance with the Iron Pigs was inconsistent. He left Lehigh Valley with a 6-9 record and a 5.18 ERA.

There is plenty of reason to believe that Carrasco will settle down, mature as a pitcher and harness his skills. If he can, he could very well be a solid No. 3 or No. 4 starter with a slightly higher ceiling. But after 5 years of ups and downs in the Phillies organization, he became expendable when a consistent ace came calling.

Lou Marson, C – There will always be high demand around baseball for a catcher that can hit the ball, and Marson was just that. Last season he hit .314 in a full season at double-A Reading and in his first taste of triple-A this year he was hitting .294 in 63 games. Marson even showed glimmers of his offensive prowess in brief call-ups to Philadelphia, hitting .286 in 21 AB. Defensively he was more than capable, earning praise from scouts and coaches alike for his ability behind the plate. It was very likely that he would be competing with Carlos Ruiz to be the starting catcher for the Phillies on Opening Day 2010. But while Marson was a prized prospect, rated No. 3 by Baseball America, projecting his talent to the major league level was not easy. In 1609 career AB in the minors he hit just 26 home runs and slugged just .388. He also did not have much doubles power, which often translates into home run power once a player reaches his physical peak.

It looked like Marson would be a light-hitting major league catcher with a decent average and little to no pop. He could have competed with Ruiz, but not necessarily stolen the job away from the Phils’ current catcher. The Phillies need not worry about losing their top catching prospect, as Travis d’Arnaud is rising through the system. At age 20 in single-A Lakewood he has already slugged 12 homers and 56 RBI with a .419 slugging percentage. Many scouts had him rated as the best catcher in the system even with Marson still involved. By the time d’Arnaud is ready, the Phillies might be glad they don’t have Marson blocking his path to the bigs.

Jason Donald, SS – For many reasons, Donald was the easiest of these four prospects to let slip away. There was no need for his services at shortstop in the immediate future, with mainstay Jimmy Rollins still dazzling with his glove even when his bat goes silent. Donald was a bit old for a prospect at 24, meaning he has likely gone through almost all of his development already. He is a smooth fielder at short, but had no experience shifting over to third base where the Phillies could have used him. This season has been a difficult one for Donald, after missing time due to injury and struggling with just a .236 average. Scouts have raved about his overall game, saying that he profiles as a starter for several years in the majors with good offensive potential.

That potential would never be reached in Philadelphia, where applicants for middle infield positions need not apply. He could very well be up with the Indians in the near future, but fans won’t miss his services. Much like 2B Adrian Cardenas, who was shipped to the Athletics last season for Joe Blanton, two All-Star roadblocks in the Phillies’ infield made Donald expendable.

Jason Knapp, RHP – A fireballer at age 18, Knapp is the type of high-ceiling prospect that the Indians were clamoring for, hoping to hit it big years down the road. They’ll have a good chance, but projecting any pitcher’s effectiveness in three or four years is a difficult process, especially such a young pitcher. A quick breeze through Knapp’s stats with Lakewood this season make it clear why Cleveland fancied him as the best pitching prospect the Phillies could offer, even above Kyle Drabek, according to some reports. In 85.1 innings he struck out 111 batters and allowed just 63 hits. For an inexperienced pitcher with such a power arm, his 39 walks were not high at all. Somehow he left Lakewood with an ERA of 4.01 and a 2-7 record despite such impressive peripheral numbers. He checked in at 6-foot-5, 235 pounds with some more growing to do, so the dominant arm is very real.

Knapp could turn out to be a frontline starter, as his 11.5 K/9 is already elite. Or he could be sidetracked by injury along the way, as he is right now and as Kyle Drabek was in 2007. Either way, he is far from his pro debut and likely won’t be ready until the Phillies current nucleus has already dissipated.

Final Thoughts – The four players going to Cleveland all have the potential to become solid major leaguers. There is always a hefty price tag on Cy Young winners. By holding onto J.A. Happ and Kyle Drabek, the Phillies managed to keep the homegrown talent for their rotation intact. And with Taylor and Brown – and Anthony Gose – still in the system, the future of the Phils’ outfield looks very bright. They lost plenty of talent in this deal, but they could afford to. The farm system takes a hit, but not one from which it can’t bounce back quickly.

 
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  • Posts: 0 Jason Grier

    Good Article! Haven’t read the whole thing yet, but so far so good!

    And hey, does anyone know any details about a press conference for Lee and Francisco?

     
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    The guy I most hated to give up, believe it or not, was Marson. If I told you knew he was a good defensive catcher, would go 4 /47/ .280 /OBP =..365, how would you feel about that? I’d love to have that for the next ten years.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    I think those were the preseason prospect rankings.. because at the All-Star break … Brown, Drabek, and Taylor were ranked in the TOP 25 … and Jason Knapp was ranked in the TOP 50 in all of baseball..

     
  • Posts: 0 jim d

    lee and happ for halladay

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Think its a great shame Indians fans didn’t know more about the prospects they received in the deal, Knapp could be every bit the future ace they expected to receive but I can understand how they’d feel like they’ve been short-changed with guys like Drabek, Brown, Taylor plastered over the baseball media. I have a lot of respect for Mark Shapiro for even entertaining getting this deal done in the shadow of the Halladay/Riccardi saga surely knowing there would be a backlash from Cleveland fans.

     
  • Posts: 0 joedad

    Rankings dont mean much. The Phils viewed Donald as a utility player, Carrasco as a head case with plus stuff, Marson as a defensive liability not good enough to overtake Paul Bako and Knapp as a 18 year old kid with a tired arm. The Phils feel they got a steal and will probably be proven correct 5 years from now.

     
  • Posts: 8 Ben Seal

    They are the preseason organizational rankings, you’re right. Carrasco was No. 2, Marson was No. 3, Donald was No. 4 and Knapp was No. 10. Those are the most logical rankings to use considering they come from scouts who have followed the whole organization closely, and take all four players into account. Knapp was listed in the Top 50 of BA’s midseason rankings, while the other three in the deal were not. Needless to say, with three guys in the Top 25, the Phillies did a great job to keep all of them.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    joedad – I don’t think Marson is regarded as a liability as a catcher.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Marson has the bat to play in the Majors.. and be more productive than Ruiz.. but he most definitely IS a defensive liability

    A lot of errors, and from scouting reports.. actually has below-average throwing arm ..

    He’ll be good.. but I didn’t see him challanging Ruiz until at least 2011 … I would have liked to keep Marson, but this trade is a steal (on paper)

     
  • Posts: 0 Terrence

    Still alot of talent in Phillies farm system. I know people think Phillies have a 3 year window to win but I think its a 4 or 5 year. After that I think the Phillies will be what they were in 04, 05,06. Winning around 85 games and competing with the young talent. when that talent will peak phillies will once again be around the top. Drabek, Taylor, Brown, Happ, Gose etc

     
  • Posts: 0 Terrence

    6 early games today including mets and rockies which has started. day night doubleheader for mets and rocks.

     
  • Posts: 0 Terrence

    i know its A-ball but anthony gose has 57 steals already for lakewood.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Original Chuck P

    The Indians got some good MLB-ready talent… Carrasco, Marson and Donald should have a chance to contribute immediately and Knapp is clearly the guy that they wanted. He’s a horse… and he has great potential. No one is saying that Drabek is going to have a better career than Jason Knapp and Indians fans should feel good about adding him to their farm. Three years down the road, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s cut from the same mold as Josh Beckett or even Roy Halladay… Rube knew that he wasn’t going to get Cliff Lee for nothing but his timetable is less than three years and Drabek is closer to that call up with a lot of upside. I’m shocked that we were able to keep both Taylor and Brown…

     
  • Posts: 0 Manny

    Great piece, Ben! Just a small typo: Under the Donald part, it says “made Marson expendable.”

    I agree with Terrence that actually this move has extended what many thought was a 2-3 yr window to a 4-5 yr window… Now you have very promising, cheap options to keep rejuvenating our core. And that’s the whole point: keep the core fresh, never let it die.

     
  • Posts: 0 Terrence

    looks like ben francisco could start in RF tonight and Werth in CF with vic sore. and mayberry jr. probably back to triple A and kyle kendrick likely.

     
  • Posts: 0 Brett

    I saw Gose play awhile back. He looked pretty good. If he can keep his average up as he progresses, he’ll be a solid major league leadoff man. Interesting side note: instead of showing his picture at Lakewood games, they show a picture of Willy Mays Hayes from Major League.

     
  • Posts: 0 Terrence

    From NY Times:

    Ortiz and Ramirez Said to Be on 2003 Doping List

    Ortiz and Ramirez Said to Be on 2003 Doping List

    Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, the sluggers who propelled the Boston Red Sox to end an 86-year World Series championship drought and to capture another title three years later, were among the roughly 100 Major League Baseball players to test positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003 according to lawyers with knowledge of the results. Now, players with Boston’s championship teams of 2004 and 2007 have also been linked to doping.

    Asked about the 2003 drug test on Thursday in Boston, Ortiz shrugged. “I’m not talking about that anymore,” he said. “I have no comment.”

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Didn’t Ortiz just make a huge deal about that.. commenting that players who test positive should be banned from baseball for life??

     
  • Posts: 0 Burt Lavallo, friend to all

    “he became expendable when a consistent ace came calling”

    you’re getting caught up in the cliff lee hype here. i’m glad they got him and everything, but by no stretch of the imagination can he be called “a consistent ace.” the man was scuffling around in the minor leagues less than two years ago! he turned things around, sure, but let’s see three or four more very good years from him before we start raving about his consistency.

     
  • Posts: 0 joedad

    Dipsy – I’ve heard Marson was a decent defensive catcher from some and a below average by others, inmcluding Mitch Williams. Snce i have no first hand knowledge, I would tend to lean towards the below average since he was passed over by Paul Bako.

     
  • Posts: 0 Geoff

    Of course David Ortiz has been on steroids, his body is already breaking down. That him and Ramirez – two guys who I think are BOTH absolute trash – were on steroids was about as obvious as A-Rod being on steroids.

     
  • Posts: 0 ryan

    haha. Cleveland fans are KILLING their GM. Shapiro got fleeced man. I tell you. I have been hearing for a while about how the Indians loved Marson and Donald. And personally, I don’t know what they saw. Those guys are marginal prospects. Prospects in general are so overrated. It’s ridiculous.

    Now I know how it felt to be a D’Backs fan in 2000 when they traded four nobodies for an Ace named Curt Schilling.

     
  • Posts: 0 Geoff

    N0ow the media is hyping like the Dodgers are going to land Halladay. I doubt that will happen. If they did they still wouldnt win because that team is saddled with bad karma because Manny Ramirez is on it.

     
  • Shocker about Manny, and you gotta love the Ortiz hypocrisy. If it wouldn’t help the Red Sox this year, I’d say he should be suspended.

     
  • Posts: 0 Geoff

    The package the Phillies gave up projects to be decent. I mean the 3 AAA guys will be major leaguers tahts for sure. Good enough to make it but who knows how effective theyll be. Carrasco could be a 3/4 type still, Marson a decent platoon catcher maybe a light hitting everyday catcher. Donald could be a utility man – and those are valuable. He can work in at 2nd and short.

     
  • Posts: 0 Lewisauce

    Did anyone actually believe that Big Pappi was NOT on the juice?

     
  • Posts: 0 Geoff

    Yeah if they believed those two guys were clean thats pretty Naive…Ive got some property to sell them

     
  • Posts: 0 Terrence

    Rosenthal says that the Dodgers have an offer of 5-6 prospects which does not include Kemp, Billingsley, Kershaw or loney but of solid decent and two great but not outstanding prospects which could tempt the jays to trade for them because they don’t have much depth in the organization in the postions the dodgers are offering. of course ain’t done yet. but still a little less than 26 hours still left. you never know but the same was said with halladay and phils. we’ll see.

     
  • Posts: 0 Gavin

    We have one glaring hole to fill. Someone to take Eric Bruntletts job. Besides Scutaro, who are possibilities to get in a trade? Before or after the trade deadline.

    Cairo is the only guy in Lehigh that is a possible upgrade.

     
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    terrence, any names on the 5-6 prospects? I doubt the Jays do it because they turned down a young Major league Starter in happ, a top 25 prospect i taylor and two very good but not outstanding prospects. The Jays would look silly for not counter the Phillies offer and taking this one. IMO of course.

     
  • Posts: 1376 Pat Gallen

    Great work by Ben on this breakdown. The person I hate to see go the most here is Knapp. Donald is marginal, Marson may or may not be a decent everyday player and Carrasco, while still young, hasnt yet figured it out.

    Knapp is enticing. 18 years old and has a cannon for an arm. Throwing 97 regularly right now. They just need to make sure that kid doesnt overthrow for chance of hurting that arm. You cant teach MPH on the gun like that, so Knapp could be huge down the road, just as long as he doesnt go hurt himself like Wood/Prior.

    How about that Gose kid…wow. 57 steals. Bring him up for pinch running after Sept 1.

     
  • Posts: 0 Gavin

    I’d like to see a deal with SD for Heath Bell and David Eckstein. I think the Pads want alot for Bell though. It wouldnt take much to get Eckstein.

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    JP RIccardi better take whatever offer the Dodgers give… unless he really, really, really wants to be fired for keeping Halladay

     
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    Gavin, I’ve been looking for a Bruntlett replacement as well. A little too expensive, but Izturis and Sherrill in a package sure would round out the roster in a nice way. Izturiz is hitting .369 against Lefties. A little on the expensive side in 2010 at 2.6 mil for an infield utility player. He doesn’t play OF either.

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    What is the deal with SEPT CALLUPS .. i think they have to be on the 40-man roster??

    So we can’t just bring whoever up for one specific role, because it takes away from “roster” spots..

    As always, there is a chance Im wrong though

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Bruntlett obviously isn’t on the team for his bat… lets take him for what he is.. a utility guy, with some playoff experience, and a pretty good beard

     
  • Posts: 0 Manny

    That’s actually a pretty good idea, Pat… I also read somewhere that the Jays wanted Gose ON TOP of the Happ, Drabek, Brown offer they made.

     
  • Posts: 0 Manny

    I love how everything has backfired on that joke of a GM…

     
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    If Halladay goes all indications are it’ll be the RedSox. Bucholtz is a nice start to a deal. mlbtraderumors says the only major leaguer being offerred in the Dodgers deal is McDonald. Jays will pass, IMO.

    Riccardi gets fired and ends up working for the Sox and an investigation ensues, LOL.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bruce

    Pat, as they say, the future is now. Knapp being only 18 years old in single A level is a 50-50 shot at making the Big Leagues several years down the road. Already showing signs of arm soreness throwing that hard and put on the shelf for rest. Remember, a “thrower” with one pitch, overpowering as it may be, won’t last long in the majors until he develops other pitches and become a “pitcher”.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bruce

    Don M says~ “JP RIccardi better take whatever offer the Dodgers give…”

    Better be careful what you wish for. LA Dodgers with Halliday in the playoffs is scary.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    I really doubt your going to see Toronto come down on their demands irrelevant of them being offered 5 or 6 prospects, the Phils could have easily given them that but unless a package includes elite prospects the Jays will stand Pat, their an arrogant ball-club who believe they can mount a challenge which is why they haven’t dealt a single player, their not going to sell low on Halladay and carve up their major league roster now with everyone’s eyes on them. Trading Halladay was something everyone other than the Jays wanted, for their sins this is a situation the front office will go down with the ship as and when but that’ll be in the win loss column as they look up and see the Orioles and not the Yankees in front of them.

    Quintin Berry will probably be our rabbit off the bench in September.

     
  • Posts: 1376 Pat Gallen

    Bruce, agreed. But its always so intriguing when a guy can throw that hard. Not many come along. Now, in now way am I saying Id rather have Knapp than Lee. This was a hell of a deal for the Phillies.

    Now, how do we keep LA from getting Doc?

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Pat we just have to hope the Jays vanity continues so they don’t come down from demanding guys like Bucholz, Kershaw, Porcello PLUS additional highly talented prospects.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Big Dipper

    Phillies offer Happ, Drabek and Taylor for Halladay. Mortage the farm now to win these next two years then build the farm up by dealing pieces later.

    A roto of Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Blanton, Happ will make us front runners for the next wo years.

    The Big Dipper

     
  • Posts: 1376 Pat Gallen

    NJ, youre right. Doesnt it seem like the Red Sox were offering more than the Phillies and if Kershaw was involved, that the Dodgers would have gotten him?

    Ricciardi is playing games with everyone, I’m not sure he was ever going to trade him.

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Well that’s a risk we took by getting Lee “cheaper” .. is that Toronto still wants to move Halladay.. and he’ll be going to one of the teams we could possibly meet in the playoffs

    I thought.. and i’ve read from NON-OFFICIAL pages that a Sept-Callup must be on the 40 man roster

    Drabek, Berry, Gose, Taylor, etc.. all are not currently on that roster.

    Not sure how you get them there.. or how fast that makes their MLB arrival clock start ticking, etc.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bob

    Phillies are better than the Dodgers whether they get Halladay or not. ]

    Mark my words: The Dodgers are this year’s version of the Cubs. The biggest 1st round flame out

     
  • Posts: 0 SRL

    I know he’s young and only in single A, but you forgot to mention that D’Arnaud is hitting .245, including a stint where he hit under .200 into June. I don’t think he’ll ever be the catcher Ruiz is.

     
  • Posts: 0 Havoc

    You can’t have Happ for the future and trade him for Drabek.

    It’s a nice thought, but I think we’re getting a little greedy now. Let’s be happy that the Jays seem content to hold onto Halladay and that we’ve got a great rotation now, a better one next year, and as long as merchandising and ticket sales keep going up who knows what will happen when Halladay hits free agency… The phils ownership has proven this year they are willing to spend money to win as long as it’s spent intelligently.

     
 
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