Phillies Nation

200 for ryan

It’d be interesting to compare the games Moyer and Werth have when Moyer is starting. Werth takes a lot of pitches, so it’s my bet that when Moyer has a good day, usually Werth will have a bad one and vice versa.

its sickening that a team can be this bad against a guy whos done against most other teams

NICE catch!

Geoff you can put your Moyer voo doo doll away now…

I am pretty sure that the person posting as Geoff is in fact not the real Geoff. While he would say things like that it does not seem to be the same kind of writing. Along with that fact that Moyer has also had great games vs the Mets and Dodgers and Geoff usually doesn’t post when someone he hates so much is proving once again he is worth his spot in the rotation.

The Big Dipper

Oh, good job, put two men on base for the guy who already hit two homers today. Law of averages says he probably won’t hit another, after all.

When will people get it, wins don’t mean anything. Proof of my point. Last year Matt Cain had an era of 3.76, the year before that 3.65. His record in those two years? 8-14 and 7-16. 15-30 combined. Even with those numbers you can not be a fan of baseball and say with any sense of seriousness that Matt Cain is not a good pitcher. Because it simply isn’t true. A pitcher’s job is not to win games. A team win’s games, not one guy. A pitcher’s job is to give his team a chance to win by pitching well. That has what Cain has always done and what Moyer, his starts against Florida aside, has not done is give his chance a win. His record is a product of the Phillies bats, nothing more.

congrats Ryan Howard on HR # 200!

Why is not Florida’s Dan Uggla playing tonight?

Did they just claim that the Win and Loss should be phased out of baseball?

How will we know which team is better than another or who should be in the playoffs? Should it be team ERA and BA?

Wins are what they play the games for. When it comes to looking at a pitchers stats wins are less important that other stats like ERA, QS, WHIP, IP but it is still something to look at. Cain has had a hell of a time winning games up until this year, you can call it a bad team but they put Ws up for Lincecum.

They made the QS stat as a way to identify if a pitcher puts his team in a position to win. They believed if a pitcher could pitch 6 innings and only give up 3 runs he has given his team a chance to win. Moyer will give his team a chance to win better than most other 4th or 5th starters in the league. He is not our ace and should not be considered in the top 3 in the rotation he is here to give the team a chance to win and it seems since since he leads the team in wins he has been doing his job.

The Big Dipper

ONE HIT SHUTOUT!

I hear ya Manny I was disgusted when I saw that. I was at the 22-1 game versus the Reds up in the top deck in RF. In the late innings some jerks starting doing Eagles chants and the real Phillies fans in the section started giving them shit. The Phillies are the team who brought a championship back to this city and are first in their division.

The Big Dipper

Yeah Wins mean something! I think what should be said is that wins are deceiving. Moyer has been on the last several starts he was a in a funk before that. He won games where we scored boat loads and lost games where we scored little.

In Matt Cains situation he had no run support if he was on the Phillies he would have won 20 each year.

NJ you exemplified my point for me. I said that a team wins games. You are right that there is a huge difference between 90 wins and 70 wins, but a pitcher doesn’t win 90 or 70 games, a team does. It is very possible and it may happen this year that Moyer may in fact win 15 games in spite of his own efforts. If Moyer finishes the year with an era around 4.50 then I will be happy with that because as a 4th or 5th starter that is about what you can expect from any 4th or 5th starter.

To answer your question, wins have validity from a team stand point but from a pitcher’s stand point they mean nothing. How many games have pitchers gotta a no decision on because their bull pen failed them? How many games has a guy like Zach Duke lost because his team could not hit? I hate to even use this example because I despise the guy but look at Roger Clemens record in 2005. He was 13-8…which, 13 wins from your ace is not very good. But if you look further, his era that year was a RIDICULOUS 1.87…in 32 starts. Think about that for a second. You might never see an era like that at the end of a full season ever again. It just doesn’t happen. His team’s bullpen failed him time and time again, his teams offense was even worse and because of those two factors his record was not near what it should be.

It amazes me how much people use statistics in a sport that absolutely should not utalize them as a measure of a players worth. In football it makes sense, in basketball it makes sense, even hockey. The fields/rinks/courts are all the same dimensions. In baseball it is different from sport to sport. You look at a guy like Ibanez. Before coming to Philly he was nothing more than a solid contributor, a guy who was dependable at the plate for a 280 average, 100 rbi or so and solid play in the field. Imagine what he would have done if he played at CBP his whole career? His numbers would possibly be out of this world. The ball park can make or break a player just as easily as their own performance. Can’t say that in football, Heinze Field is no different than the Linc. The Wachovia Center is no different than Staples Center. Everything is equal in respect to the two sports that are played there.

Well done Moyer! Man, the Phils should keep him around just to pitch against the Marlins…

I’ll route for the Braves over the Mets any night of the week. I want the Mets buried before they can get healthy.

5-3 Atlanta. lets hope for 7.5 games back tonight.

NJ- a statistic that doesn’t correspond to it’s data isn’t really that good. If you have to explain its relevance then it lacks clarity and elegance.

I’m so tired of listening to the Moyer haters. It’s like Geoff just hopes and prays for Moyer to get rocked so he can be right and he can say told ya so. He had a fantastic start tonight and you just complain.

I can forgive Moyer for some of his rough outings, because you can’t argue that Hamels wouldn’t be the pitcher he is without Moyer there, and the same goes for all of the pitchers. Happ, Blanton, etc. Sure, Moyer doesn’t put up the flashy numbers, but he gets wins and straight dominates the Fish every time we play them. He gets rocked and has some short outings from time to time, but a lot of games, he still gives the Phils a chance to win and that’s all you can ask for.

Ed R.-I don’t think that CBP has much at all to do with Ibanez. Just take a look at the split stats. Ibanez has had 32 games at home and 32 games on the road this year. Away, his numbers are .314 avg 13 hr 35 rbi 1.011 OPS, while at home he is at .303 avg 8 hr 25 rbi 1.019 OPS. I think it has more to do with him having more protection in the Phillies lineup. Being sandwiched in between Ryan Howard and Jayson Werth certainly can’t hurt.

Ed R- I can appreciate your viewpoint but if wins are solely on the team then why do wins affect managers?

This is a results business and if a team wins behind a pitcher there’s value to that, player wins aren’t meaningless if the team gets better results when a guys pitching. When your holding a guy up against his competitors peripheral stats become important but when it comes to a Moyer your not holding him up against the creme of the league, your looking at him against pitchers in a similar role. If he’s getting better results he’s the move valuable pitcher on a winning team because past the stats, the weather, the scrutiny sometimes you just have to concede that baseball skills and intangibles still have a place in this game. When you watch the game sometimes you have to just appreciate a guy playing better/or worse than the stats and wins carry some relevance to how good or bad a starting pitcher has been. As good as Matt Cain has been without winning games, Moyer, in his role has won games because he’s been better than his ERA.

Stats are incredibly important, their the backbone of this game but there still has to be wiggle room for playing the game, starting pitchers wins aren’t the most important stat when judging a pitcher, but the stat carries some relevance.

Reliever wins, that’s a different story…

In my opinion, Eagles chants at opposing ballparks are awesome.

Great game Phils!

Matt I agree with everything you said. As a pitcher Moyer is at the very best a 5th starter, who honestly, probably should have retired but chose not too. The Phillies brought him back and we have to accept what he will give us for as long as he is on the team. Hopefully he reevaluates things at the end of the season and retires so the team does not have to make a decision as to whether or not they should release him.

What Moyer has brought to this team as a teacher and mentor is in fact invaluable. Every pitcher on that roster has probably learned a thing or two from Moyer, especially Hamels. It is not unfair to say that the Phillies would have never won the World Series last year if it weren’t for Moyer, maybe not Moyer the pitcher but Moyer the teacher. A lot of what Hamels gives us is God given talent mixed with training mixed with teacher and Moyer clearly is one of the best teachers in the game and why not? He has played two decades in the majors while not being the most talented guy out there but by being one of the smartest and sometimes, even in sports, brains is just as good as brawn.

I also agree that Ibanez may not have been the best example as you are absolutely right, the line up he is in is clearly a huge factor in his spiked production. But I think you get my point nonetheless. A ball park can absolutely play to a players strengths and that can lead to their statistics looking much better than the player actually is.

Wins is bottom line the MOST important stat for pitchers. And goalies in hockey. Used to be back in the day a good pitcher would experiment when they had a big lead. It was a smart thing to do to give up 4 runs in a game you are winning 10-0. You try something and maybe yuo develop something positive to use in a game you are winning 1-0 that can help you get another win. Just win baby.

Had to play golf just finished watching the game on DVR . And after reading the last few days post I had to come here and see what all the Moyer haters would be saying. The guy pitches 7 innings and probably could have come out in the 8th if the pen really needed the rest, ZERO runs, ONE HITgot out of a fist and second one out after giving up his ONLY HIT, wait I said that already. And all people can talk about is his stats, the guy just won his 9th game wheather that stat means anything or not. The Pitched great, give him his props and be happy for the win to start the second half of the season.
Is he going to do this every time out, no, would I like him to yes. Is he going to get ripped once in a while yes, every time out no. He is going to give you a chance to win games 3 out of 4 starts, he is as good a #5 starter as half the teams out there.
And he is going to be in the rotation for the rest of the year unless he has 3 or 4 starts where he just gets bombed, but that will not happen because he is a good pitcher. So Geoff and you following who like to bash a guy with 9 wins and what 7 or 8 quality starts go f yourself