Phillies Nation

erm, no. what will it take to make philly phans understand that Happ is at worst a great number two in the rotation? 7-0 this year? done. fantastic. consideration for rookie of the year for the nl? down to the voters, but his name is at least on their minds and poised on their lips. admin would do a disservice to this team to trade him. sell the farm for doc, whole-heartedly. but a young, left-handed, and now proven young pitcher? hell no. he’s not trade-bait. you keep him, let him rack up the w’s and ride him as a 3 or 4 while he develops and grows into his place as the number 2 in the rotation.
He is still learning the game at the major league level. and i must say, he is doing so quite wonderfully this year. if he had been put into the rotation earlier he might be leading the league in wins. happ’s a winner. like it, love it, win with it phils.

I think you keep Happ. *If* he’s the real deal, and the organization think it’s realistic that he could be in the Phillies rotation for 5 years or more, then don’t trade him for 1.5 years of Halladay. I mean, people, we won the World Series. I want another too, but this club does not have to take out second mortgages anymore i.e. overpay and deplete the system. Now instead they can restock and rebuild while remaining highly competitive. Think down the road: besides Hamels, who will be in the rotation 2 years from now? Not Moyer. You’re thinking Brett Myers? They need some fresh arms. Now, if they can sign Halladay to a longer-term deal, I’m all ears.

I see no similarity between Happ and Kendricks. Happ is a better quality pitcher by far.

The Phillies also only have to pay Happ a rookie’s salary, which is about two orders of magnitude smaller the Roy Halladay’s. If they sign Halladay to a long term deal, it will drain a lot more money out of the Phil’s bankroll than keeping J.A. Happ over the same term. Now, if they could acquire Halladay on his current contract while keeping Happ, I’d say go for it.

I don’t agree with the Phils emptying out the piggy bank on just one player for a year & 1/2, unless we can lock him up long term early, and still be able to keep Happ in Red stripes. Haven’t we learned anything from the Garcia deal? Gonzalez, and Floyd? Come on now Amaro! We are ”EIGHT” games ahead in the NL East…Nothing needs attention right now. Were good enough already to win another W.S back to back to back to back…Go Phils!

Happ just got more expensive too. In no way can he be in a deal now.

“Miami Marlins” just sounds awful. they’re going to have to change their logo now too

we’re 7 games ahead, not 8. but that’s not really that important at all because right now the nl east is a very lousy division. the marlins are scrappy but they don’t have what it takes yet. the mets are a shell of a team, the braves are mediocre, and the nationals are the worst team in baseball history. you can’t base our chances of making it deep into the playoffs from our division lead in the middle of july, and the bottom line is that we need an ace right now if we want another world series, period.

He meant the Phils are 8 ahead in the loss column.

From listening to all the analysts, you’d think the Phils are in the worst bargaining position ever in regards to Halladay, but in reality the Jays position is deceptively weak. Frankly the decision to put Halladay up on the trade block is a desperation move, especially from a team that was in the race for most of the first half in the toughest division in baseball.

I’m not sure if they’re desperate because they can’t win their division or more likely that they can’t meet their payroll with two monstrous and untradeable contracts Rios & Wells. Either way when your opponent in a deal is desperate you don’t make a deal in their favor. Do the Phils want to have Halladay on the team, of course, but do they NEED to have him on the team. Honestly the answer there is no. He certainly improves the odds of going back to the world series, but it’s not impossible for the Phils to do that without him. The Jays don’t just want to unload Halladay by the deadline they need to. If they wait until the offseason his value will continue to drop and they’ll continue to spend more and more money. So far every other team that is supposed to be in the Halladay sweepstakes has been eliminated because they don’t have the prospects, can’t handle the salary, or are in the same division as the Jays. It honestly seems like the Phils are the only team in this thing.

This is the point where you have to play hardball with the Jays. Make a feeler offer and then closer to the deadline come to them with a 5 or 6 for 1.

1. Brown
2. Knapp
3. Taylor
4. Donald
5. Marson

A solid offer of cheap young talent with two prospects in the top 50. Unless other teams get involved there is no reason to believe that this isn’t the best offer. With a 7 game lead in the division the Phils don’t have to panic and give up Drabek & Happ as some people are suggesting. The lack of competition in the division has given us the entire second half to try and work out our rotation problems. If you can’t get Halladay done for the offer above, you make trade offers for Doug Davis, Aaron Harang or the slew of other pitchers who are going to become available in the last few days of the month. Who knows maybe Pedro will even summon up some more magic. The bottom line is in this trade the Jays need the Phillies not the other way around.

Yes, Happ is young and a relatively new major league pitcher but he also has some degree of team loyalty. He fits in with the club and is able to improve upon his pitching each start. That may not win us a championship each and every year we have him but we can feel comfortable in him being the 2, 3 or 4 starter. It is when the club starts to seek out championships year after year that they have problems…..The Yankees and the Mets and the Red Sox have all been focused on winning that world series again and they haven’t. Santana was not the magic key for the mets to win it all. Anyway, who has the best record/average on the phillies? do you really want to gamble on losing the most consistent pitcher for 1.5 years with halladay and his huge salary….I am a JA Happ fan so I guess I am biased but he is something special that I dont want to lose right now

Havoc – I agree with your strategy, but honestly, right now I wouldn’t offer the Blue Jays that much. In addition, if there is one thing the Jays have, its outfielders. Out the Wazoo. They’te gonna want a picther. At this point, who do you wanna keep more, Happ or Drabek?

The Dipsy

True The Dipsy, but the Jays would love to lose the two outfielders they have. If you include both it gives them the option. They’d have to eat a ton of those contracts but they’d have cheap replacements to save them a little money. Even though it’s quite a few players I don’t think 5 or 6 to 1 is too much for Halladay. The key is just what 5 or 6 do we offer.

I can oly think of a few examples of guys like this coming to Philly. Dr. J and Moses coming to the Sixers. Pete Rose going to the Phils, And Eric Lindros going to the Flyers. Now, I don’t follow hockey but I understand that last one didn’t work out too well. It is so infrequent that a guy is out there that can be said to “put you over the top”. I think Halladay may be the guy.

The Dipsy

Happ or Drabek?

The Dipsy

As to the mets falling quickly…what about a trade to pick up Shef for a right handed bat of the bench? Prolly wouldnt take much to get him

They were talking about Halladay’s contract the other day on DNL, said there is a clause included that gives him the right to be traded after this season if he doesn’t like it where he is. So that would mean giving up who knows what for a half year rental. That would be INSANE! I don’t know if anyone can verify this, but if it is in fact part of his contract and he can demand to be traded after this season, Rub and Co. need to think long and hard before giving up Happ or Drabek.

Halladay’s most likely gonna end up with either Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox or Yankees if the Phillies don’t get him. At some point in the postseason the Phillies are gonna have to face the guy….a couple of times. And, odds are, the team that he’s on is most likely going to advance. Sure, we can compare him to C.C. all we want and the fact that the big guy choked last year with the Brewers in the playoffs. But Halladay is better than C.C. (look at C.C. numbers this year……not bad but not even close to Halladay’s). I agree with Dipsy when he says, “I think Halladay may be the guy.”

All being said…there are no guarantees….but I think it’s close to the time when RAJ needs to pull the trigger. They want Drabek, apparently, so trade the guy. Maybe he’s the next Cy Young or Walter Johnson or Pedro when he was a Red Sox……or……maybe he’s the next Adam Eaton (probably not…but you get the point). I think we have to take the chance here. An opportunity like this may not come along again for a long time.

If you think about this whole trade and the prospects that we would be giving up, you have to look to our past prospects. The key parts to our team that won it all last year, Utley, Victo, Hoaward, Hamels, Burrell, Rollins etc, came up through the minor leagues. The question is: is taking the chance of Drabek, who can potentially be a Hamels or better, when Hamels was ptiching well, worth giving up for Hallday. Look at Gavin Flloyd or Randy Wolf who came up and we traded and how they turned out to be decent pitchers. However, I think at this point our farm system is so deep, it is worth it to trade one of the best prospects, Drabek OR Taylor. Not both. Taylor will be the next coming of Howard if you compare there stats. In order to contend again this year we need a top of the line pitcher, like Halladay. We need to close this deal.

I’m willing to part with Dravek, butnot Dravek and Taylor. I’m not giving up two top prospects for a rental.

I’d go Dravek, Marson, Donald and a pitcher not named Knapp.

Happ is much different than Kendrick. In 2007, Kendrick was able to work out of a lot of jams, while using basically one pitch. In 2008, the word was out and Kendrick is now back in the Minors trying to develop some consistency and confidence with secondary pitches. At this point, I am still not counting out Kendrick making it back to the Show, although it may not be in a Phils uniform. Happ, on the other hand, knows how to “pitch” and already has the ability to use his secondary pitches. Happ doesn’t get into many jams, although yesterday’s 6th inning was a beautiful one to wriggle out of with no damage. Call Me Jay is left-handed, is not afraid to throw inside to righties (unlike Kendrick with lefties), and is deceptively fast, which is a big plus. Pitchers are tabbed as being “deceptively fast” for a reason. It’s usually something in either their delivery and/or their physical stature that causes the deception. It’s not something that hitters EVER “catch up to” as so many think will happen to Happ. He is a keeper. Including him in a trade for Halladay doesn’t make sense, as it will hurt the Phils almost as much as Halladay will help.

Frank, it looks like the Jays want both Taylor and Drabek. I say go. Let’s do it. At first, when I thought about it, I was not in favor of dealing both. But I think it’s time to get this done…..NOW. Taylor’s numbers ARE impressive and he certainly has that potential. But power hitting outfielders can always be had either via trade or free agency and, while it would hurt losing him, I think you have to take that chance in order to get a pitcher like Halladay. Drabek could be great as well but, again, he’s not at all proven at this level and there are no guarantees that he’ll succeed.

Chuck, dravek, taylor and what else would you be willing to give up?

Honestly why is there a Kendrick vs Happ comparison being made, their two totally different pitchers. Kendrick was a young, underdeveloped under-seasoned prospect with very little ‘stuff’ to speak of who came up contributed incredibly well and then couldn’t build on that. Happ is a totally different pitcher, he is a big guy with stuff and command who has as much minor league seasoning as anyone. He’s not going to be a front of the rotation guy by design but he can anchor the middle of the Phillies rotation for a half decade plus.

The Jays want Drabek, they want Brown and Knapp, Riccardi wants to be spoilt with ‘top prospects’ so he wont want a deal built around Happ.

So, Dravek, Taylor, Donald and Carrasco. If I thought I’d get him for more than 1.33 years I’d probably do it, but reluctantly.

I guess the question is do we stand a better chance at winning a WS over the next 5 years with Halladay in 2009, 2010 or Dravek, Taylor and another starter(someone else we trade for this year) and an extra 15 million to get other players in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013. if the answer is yes, make the deal.