Phillies Nation

Getting Cantu to ground into a double play was huge in the game.

I like the christmas references purely because “Coal” hamels was pitching. Please… sweet win… but can we be a little more creative on such a huge evening.

Looking ahead in the schedule, we really need to play strong the coming week, because the Mets play the Nationals, and the fish play the Padres.

Listen I do not mean to sound harsh but this article just annoyed me. I agree with rob, it was such a huge night but the christmas references were just not needed in my opinion. Poor article for a great win.

Lidge is real shaking …no confidence when he is called in there…they all know how he is and he looks like he’s scared as well..I think Charlie is just giving him time to either hang himself or fix his terrible pitching.

Good morning Phillies Nation. I post on another message board that is all mlb not just Phillies and there was a discussion about current players that have a HoF chance. I mentioned Utley, and of course people were disputing me. Someone asked me to compare him to Sandberg, Morgan, and Kent so I did just that. I thought you guys might like it. I know the stats may seem weird so I’ll explain them at the end. Anyway without further ado let’s see how our prized second baseman compares to some of the greats at his position.

I’m doing the careers of each player. The 1st 5 full seasons of each player and then their careers between the ages of 26 and 30(Utley’s 1st 5 full seasons) to properly compare them. I’m just going to do Utley’s career since there’s not much to it yet.

Utley Career: PA 3504 OPS+ 131 BA+ 110 OBP+ 110 SLG+ 121 ISO .231 BTWins 13.8

Utley is coming into his prime now, and barring injury could see at least 2-3 years of play like he’s had thus far in his career. Now this is completely biased and homer speculation, but Utley is a gamer and I can totally foresee him putting up comparable numbers to his career numbers for another 6-8 years, but I fully expect 3 at minimum. Some players put up great numbers at the age of 36-38 ie Manny and Bonds. Let’s see what he can do. It’s too early to tell. Comparing him to other players is tough to do because his career has been short. He needs another 5000 or so PA’s to get into the discussion for real. All I can do is time line.

Morgan career: PA 11329 OPS+ 132 BA+ 104 OBP+ 120 SLG+ 111 ISO .156 BTWins 50.4
Morgan first full 6 seasons: PA 3158 OPS+ BA+104 OBP+ 119 SLG+ 104 ISO .132 BTWins 10.7
(doing 6 seasons since Morgan was on the DL one year)
Morgan 26-30: PA 3366 OPS+ 138 BA+ 109 OBP+ 121 SLG+ 117 ISO .165 BTWins 17.2

The thing about Joe Morgan is that he played at an insane level from the ages of 28-33. His peak wasn’t that great only 5 years, but his longevity was. He also had a small peak from 21-23. Utley could surpass Morgan if he plays on an insane level for another 6 years or so, but I don’t think he will. Utley hits for more power as you can see from ISO and SLG, but ballparks could play a factor in that. Morgan’s on base skills were much better.

Sandberg career: PA 9282 OPS+ 114 BA+ 106 OBP+ 102 SLG+ 112 ISO .167 BTWins 15.4
Sandberg 1st 5 full seasons: PA 3441 OPS+ 104 BA+ 105 OBP+ 99 SLG+ 105 ISO.132 BTWins2.8
Sandberg 26-30: PA 3295 OPS+ 118 BA+ 107 OBP+ 103 SLG+ 116 ISO .179 BTWins 6.9

As you can see from looking at Sandberg’s career compared to Utley’s that Utley is clearly better.

Kent career: PA 9537 OPS+ 123 BA+ 109 OBP+ 105 SLG+ 118 ISO .210 BTWins 27.2
Kent first 6 full seasons: PA 3232 OPS+ 113 BA+ 103 OBP+ 99 SLG+ 114 ISO .199 BTWins 4.8
Kent 30-34: PA 3252 OPS+ 142 BA+ 117 OBP+ 113 SLG+ 125 ISO .241 BTWins 17.2

I just did Kent’s first full 6 seasons since that was ages 25-30 and it’s less PA’s than Utley has career wise. Kent was a late bloomer so I also did his peak years of 30-34 which is 5 years like Utley’s career since it was kind of unfair to show his early years since he was in fact a late bloomer. Kent hit for more power during his peak with slightly better on base skills. If Utley plays at Kent’s level from 30-34 then he’ll end up with the better career. Utley is 30 now and off to a much better start than Kent. 33-34 is usually an age when players start their decline, so I fully expect that Utley will put up good numbers until that age.

As you can see as of right now offensively Utley is off to a good start. He’s on pace to be much better than Sandberg and most likely will be better than Kent. If he can play at a ridiculous level until the age of 36 or 37 or so(the level he’s been playing at since 2006) then it’s conceivable that he might end up better than Morgan, but I doubt it. Let’s see where his career ends up when it is all said and done.

PA are plate appearances. I like that better than ABs because ABs don’t include walks or HBP.
OPS+ is the players OPS divided by the league average OPS times 100. It also takes ball park into account. 100 is average.
BA+, SLG+, OBP+ is the same thing as OPS+ but it doesn’t take ballpark into account.
ISO is isolated power. It is better than slugging because someone can have a high slugging just from hitting a ton of singles and having a ridiculously high batting average…see Ichirio Suzuki. His power is basically non-existent, but he still puts up a good slugging %.
BTWins is a formula used(not sure the formula) that shows the contribution a player has to help his team win with his bat.

metsmanslam you angry little boy. The Marlins are over .500 if I’m not mistaken. Oh that’s right…they are. The Reds were over .500 until they played us. Then there’s the Mets…they s*ck.

I don’t understand doesn’t anything make a mets fan feel embarrased . It’s unbelievable they stink. Have a ass for a G.m. and still they talk.

I love how this team is playing right now, but a closer with an ERA above 7 is horrendous. When is Lidge going to learn he needs to start locating his fastball before he throws that slider? Oh yeah thats right he can’t locate his fastball for sh*t and then when he has to throw that slider over the plate is hangs up there to get slammed or he’ll think people are going to chase it and no one bites because they know he can’t throw the fastball for a strike and he just walks everybody.

I’m convinced that this is a total confidence issue. His slider has bite, his fastball is up near 94-95 most of the time. It’s like the minute he doesn’t get ahead he starts pressing and trying to aim his pitches. Dubee better start doing a better job of getting him in line because he needs to get his act together. Good thing there is plenty of the season left, but I keep thinking Lidge is a few good outings away from getting himself together and then he goes out there and sucks again and its back to square one. Thats another reason why I’m convinced its a confidence issue.

Is nobody going to comment on my Utley post? :( I put a lot of work into that.

Utley is the best defensive infielder in baseball.

fieldingbible.com

He has the best +/- out of any defensive player in all of baseball over the past 3 years. I don’t know how good Sandberg or Morgan were because there aren’t the same stats out there like UZR and +/-, but Utley is the best of his time by far. I bet he cracks top 10 of all time defensively when all is said and done. He’s on pace to crack top 5 offensively…definitely a top 5 2B of all time assuming he stays healthy.

“I am a HUGE Utley fan and have often argued that utley is just as good as Sandberg, but Sandeberg has won a MVP award.’

Irrelevant. So did Pedroia…is he better than Utley? So did Rollins, is he better than Utley? So did Howard, is he better than Utley? I could name a large list of players that have won MVP awards that aren’t better than Utley.

“Utley needs to play till at least 37 if not 39 and be good at the end not mediocre. He needs to be in MVP contention the next 3-4 yrs after this yr and needs to stay healthy. It’s not impossible for him to end up as good if not better but it’s no slam dunk.”

Did you read anything I wrote?

“The one thing Utley has going for him over Kent and Sandberg…WFC!!!!! The others were not.”

I also find this to be irrelevant.

“Utley is by far and away the best at his position currently in baseball. I think a MVP/WS MVP/battinmg title will help alot. He needs something else.”

All irrelevant. Ted Williams doesn’t have a ring. Is he worse than David Eckstein?

Wow what a site so many no it all’s on here but then again it’s a Philly thing where men are men and women are fat and coyote ugly…oh and the Eagles are gonna win the Super Bowl….! The NL East is weak this year and the phillies better win it they should be a shoe with all the others are either hurt like the “mutts” or would rather stay out of the post season fun do to thinking they have a team….marlins …braves nope its all Philly…I’m a fan of the game not team..not any team actually….it looks like a lot of people on here are really fans or just have no-life other then to write their thoughts of what it is to be a philly fan….and you guys sell out every night at home but it is a small stadium so you should…I’m here on vacation from Detroit…..to visit a friend who is pretty high up at WIP….he told me check this blog out….he was right it is laughable..and yet true Philly fans some only a few do know what they are talking about as far as the game is played…good luck in the Playoffs your gonna need it…oh one other thing Halladay is going to the Cards..according to my sources…gotta run now going blue fishing with some guys from WIP tonite should be pretty cool.

Phil, what is your opinion on Roberto Alomar? Personally, one have to look at the total package, offensively AND defensively to give a fair evaluation of a player’s greatness.

Alomar has the most gold glove awards (10) of any 2nd baseman since the awards were first established.

Alomar won five as a member of the Toronto Blue Jays, two with the Baltimore Orioles and three more with the Cleveland Indians.

Offensively, he is a lifetime .300 hitter and winner of four silver slugger awards. He finished in the top 6 voting for MVP five times. The 12 time all-star has 474 stolen bases, a statistic that Utley will never seriously threaten.

I’m glad the Phillies won and that Cole had a better game minus the rain delay. I’m happy that Chase hit a homerun. Hopefully the extra innings don’t put a toll on them tonight.

The thing about Alomar that tarnishes his image is the spitting incident. Makes “WFC’s” seem very insignificant and tame by comparison. Nice post, though…..you have WAY too much time on your hands, Phil.

I agree…..Alomar WAS a very good player. I saw him many times. Unbelievable. And it IS irrelevant to how good he was. BUT…..when it comes time for HOF voting, if it’s close, then that incident COULD…not saying it will….but COULD play into the voting decision.

Agreed…it shouldn’t. It’s not even anywhere close to Pete Rose’s issues or the steroid players like McGwire or Palmeiro that have virtually no chance at election. And they were great players, too. Too bad.