What Does Pedro Martinez Bring to the Table?
Posted by Corey Seidman, Wed, July 15, 2009 10:25 AM | Comments: 173
Analysis, Posts
While the ink dries on Pedro Martinez’ one-year/$1M contract with the Phillies, the time has come to look at just how much value the Hall-of-Fame bound right-hander will have at this point in his career.
Opinions vary – some think Martinez is no better than the team’s other fifth starter candidates, some believe he is a vast improvement, while others are caught up in the big-name status he comes with. Personally, I’m a mixture of all three.
But since this is Philadelphia, let’s first look at the negatives.
Financial
Before the season started, Pedro was looking for a deal that paid him roughly $5M in 2009. Needless to say, none of the the thirty teams bit. The contract he has received from the Phillies is worth $1M, and, with incentives, could reach $1.5M. All in all, it’s a low-risk, high reward situation that is less expensive than many originally believed.
GM Ruben Amaro has stated that the addition of Pedro Martinez would not quell the team’s pursuit of Roy Halladay, but one would imagine that the spending has to stop somewhere. The Phillies are already paying more in player salary this season than they ever have, and if they were to trade for Halladay, they would have to pay a portion of his large 2009 salary.
Fans rarely, if ever, concern themselves with the pockets of their respective team’s ownership group, but let’s think logically about the Phillies financial situation for a second. They are already selling out nearly every night, and the stadium is poised to set new attendance records by seasons end. Adding Martinez and Halladay would not do much for attendance, because there is not much more to be done! Of course, the addition of these two pitchers would heighten the Phillies’ chances of a playoff berth, but in a weak, injury-riddled NL East, the postseason is already a large possibility. At what point does the player payroll shrink the team’s profit enough to make a move for Halladay…unessential?
I doubt that any of you want to hear about that. You, like me, want the Phillies to do what is necessary to bolster the starting rotation in order to increase the chances of winning a first round playoff series. Imagine that the Phillies end up playing the San Francisco Giants in the NLDS and are faced with the 1-2-3 of Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, and Jonathan Sanchez/Randy Johnson/Barry Zito. Being able to match that with Halladay-Hamels-Blanton/Happ would almost guarantee a series win against a weak offensive squad. But Hamels-Blanton-Happ? Tough to tell.
Quick aside: it is unrealistic to think the Blue Jays would accept a deal that does not include either Kyle Drabek or J.A. Happ, so no more time should be wasted on fantasies. It WILL take Drabek/Happ, Michael Taylor, Jason Donald, and an Andrew Carpenter-type to snag Halladay. We’re talking about a top-five pitcher in the game. While this may sound like a lot to give up, recognize that Taylor is blocked for at least two more years, Donald has been nothing special this year, and as good as J.A. Happ has been, his production will never come close to Halladay’s. He is cheaper and younger, but should not be “untouchable.” Drabek’s stock seems to rise every day, and it would be tough to see him go, but there are no guarantees that he will be a successful major league pitcher. This reminds me of the Yankees commitment to Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the Johan Santana trade talks. Do you think the Yankees wish they budged two years ago? I sure do. (Okay, back to Pedro.)
Velocity
My brother, Eric Seidman of Baseball Prospectus, wrote for BP and ESPN.com yesterday that “Pedro’s projection pegs him as virtually equivalent to what the Phillies could have expected from the likes of Rodrigo Lopez, Kyle Kendrick and a number of other internal options. However, if he is truly capable of hitting 91-93 mph with the heater as recent reports indicate, he carries much more upside than the revolving door of fifth starters currently employed by the defending champs.”
This is a HUGE ”if.” Reports have varied on the velocity of Pedro’s fastball. Earlier in the year when teams were scouting him, word came out that he was steadily throwing 85 mph. Now we hear 91-93.
Martinez’ average fastball has not hit 90 mph on the radar gun since 2003. Last year, it was 87. It should come to no surprise that the decrease in his fastball has led to the worst few seasons of his career.
2008 Was Dreadful to Pedro
In 2008, Martinez had the worst ERA, strikeout rate, HR rate, line drive rate, and opponent batting average of his career. His walk rate was the worst since 1993, his first full season in the majors. Batters made contact on a whopping 68% of his pitches out of the strike zone, BY FAR the worst percentage he has ever seen. His career number is 49%, and he had even lowered that in two of his three seasons with the Mets before 2008. An increase like that is astronomical, and is a direct result of less velocity and movement on the fastball.
Martinez has always relied heavily on movement and corner-painting, but a flat 87 mph fastball will not miss many bats, regardless of where it is placed. Once the velocity and movement go, it’s hard to find a different way to get guys out. Just ask Tom Glavine.
Why 2009 Will Be Better
If Pedro IS able to hit that 91-93 mph range, however, we will be looking at an inexpensive improvement to the starting rotation. Even if his fastball is in in the 89-91 range, he has the chance to be very effective, and I’ll tell you why.
From 2005-2007, Martinez was viewed as the ace of the New York Mets pitching staff. Unfortunately, he no longer had the “stuff” of an ace. The Red Sox recognized that and made the wise decision to let him become a free agent. Enormous pressure was placed on him to be the man he was in Boston, and he had relative success in his first season with the Mets. But the expectations of Pedro duplicating his success from 1997-2003, the best seven-year stretch of any pitcher in major league history, were absurd.
It wasn’t until Johan Santana arrived in New York that Pedro could be slotted into a more fitting role as a second or third starter. But he was not even THAT anymore, and he began trying to do too much. He couldn’t throw the fastball by guys anymore, no matter if it was on the black or not. And batters become more patient with Pedro, swinging at 10% fewer pitches in the strike zone than his career average. Simply put, New York was a bad place to be for Pedro Martinez.
But Philadelphia is the perfect fit. The Phillies are not expecting Martinez to be their savior, they are simply asking him to be a solid fourth or fifth starter. Little pressure is being placed upon him, and it is not hard at all to imagine him exceeding our expectations of being a six-inning, three-run, starter. I’m not saying he’ll go seven innings in his first start, but he has a good chance of being very productive at the back-end of the rotation.
There is also the unquantifiable aspect of…fun. Pedro is a very exciting, charismatic presence. Anyone who has watched baseball closely over the last ten years can attest to that. He always seems to develop a terrific rapport with young, especially those of Latin descent. With the Mets, it seemed like any time a player got a key hit while Pedro was pitching or made a nice defensive play, it carried the added bonus of “doing it for Pedro.” When things are going well, he is all smiles. The Phillies fit his personality to a tee, with a loose, friendly atmosphere and the presence of a true players manager in Charlie Manuel.
Who Does Pedro Replace?
Let’s fast forward to early August, after Pedro is signed, suited, and ready to go. He has just completed his final minor league start in preparation for the bigs, and he is called up to the Phillies. Who does he replace? In all honesty, if the Phillies are looking to be the best possible team they can be, the answer would be Jamie Moyer. Rodrigo Lopez has looked VERY good in his first two starts with the Phillies, and not just from a numbers standpoint. He has shown that he has tremendous movement on all of his pitches and uses the corners wisely. He is fully capable of inducing double plays, as he showed in his second start, and has worked well out of jams.
Moyer, on the other hand, has been very, very bad this season. Sure, he has the occasional solid outing, but the 8-6 record is completely a product of good run support. His 5.99 ERA is terrible, as is his 1.50 WHIP and .303 opponent batting average. In addition to the plethora of hits he is giving up, he has already given up more homers this year (21) than all of last year (20.) His ground ball/fly ball ratio is also getting worse. This is likely a result of Moyer inexplicably throwing so, so many more fastballs. In his time with the Phillies, he has thrown fastballs roughly 40% of the time. This season? Try 65%. That’s a 25% increase! For a guy whose fastball tops out at 82 mph. Hmm…
I’m sure I will draw the wrath of many fans, but these are all signs that it is time to call it a career. Moyer had a tremendous year in 2008, but he is showing his age in ’09 and it is no longer acceptable to justify his bad outings, especially if better options become available.
Posts: 0 Miles
I still don’t see Pedro being a big help for this team but I would love for him to prove me wrong. I just have nightmares of his first start coming against the Mets and them bashing him.
Secondly, if the reports are true and his fastball has jumped back up to 91-93, then I wouldn’t be surprised if A-Roid* or his cousin were hooking him up with some juice down in the DR. I mean 85 to 93 in a couple months. Haha.
Posted: 10:34 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Big Dipper
You my friend are a re-tard. No chance in hell the Phillies replace Moyer with Pedro considering he has come back start after a rough start. No way the would replace a fan favorite (Moyer) and leave in scrubs and minor leaguers in the 5th spot. Keep dreaming buddy. I understand this is your opinon but if your going to post on the site and not just comment try being semi realistic.
O and BTW nice name drop about your brother, NO ONE CARES.
Brian, what’s the deal? The talent of the writers has severely dropped since Tim left. Please find some new writers who can give some solid insight instead of just bashing the players they don’t like.
The Big Dipper
Posted: 10:45 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Miles
Also, I understand the proposal of kicking Jamie out of the rotation, but since May 19th his ERA is actually percentage points better than Cole’s (4.71 compared to Cole’s 4.78, I believe).
Obviously Cole is the better pitcher, but I think the main thing that I am trying to point out is that his ERA is 4.71 since May 19. That isn’t all that bad, and certainly good enough as our number 4 or 5, which he is at this point. That certainly is all I’m hoping for with Pedro.
Posted: 10:47 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
I think Pedro is definitely worth the risk and…I agree….Moyer should finish the year and a long relief guy or occasional spot starter.
Lopez could be the real surprise here…he’s relatively young (33, I think?) compared to Moyer and Pedro and seems to be rebounding nicely. He’s a crafty pitcher and a battler and seems genuinely happy to be back in the bigs and on this team.
Potentially, I like a rotation of Hamels, Blanton, Happ, Pedro and Lopez…. for now….(assuming that Halladay doesn’t join the team which I’m not convinced will happen). The Phillies still need to pursue either Halladay or someone else because this rotation probably won’t get it done in the long run.
For that rotation to go deep into the postseason Hamels needs to right his ship (not convinced he has the mental ability this year….something’s off).
Blanton needs to continue his “bulldog” ways. Probable.
Happ just needs to keep doing what he’s doing. Probable.
Pedro needs to quiet all the critics. We’ll see.
And Lopez needs to show that he’s fully recovered and capable of winning like he did 5 years ago. Maybe.
That’s A LOT to ask.
Posted: 10:56 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 psujoe
Any way you guys could pin a thread on “trade talk” or whatever near the top so we don’t have to go surfing to find our discussions as we approach the deadline?
Posted: 11:07 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 psujoe
I know there’s a reason, but I can’t remember. Why is Martinez on the Dl in stead of just on assignment in the minors?
Posted: 11:12 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
Theyre also going to make a trade. So one way or another, Moyer is gone.
Posted: 11:16 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
Dipper, Jamie Moyer is the worst starter in major league baseball who started the season and has made every start. Look at the numbers.
Posted: 11:19 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Jeff
Why would you call him a retard. First dont ever use that word dipsy. There are many children and adults in this world with special needs so dont use a word like that. He is allowed to base an opinion on this team. He is right about Moyer. If not for this offense you could take four wins off the board. Its like batting practice when he pitches. Moyer has a very high ERA. Once they make a deal for a pitcher he is gone and thank god for that.
Posted: 11:21 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Richie Allen
Everybody knows he wont be a #1 or a #2 guy.
To be honest ,Pedro hasnt pitched with the Pedro Quality of past years for about 3 years now.
So,while I agree we have nothing to lose except about $1 million,I still think we need that big dog premier pitcher if we want to win it all.
I think we would all agree that in the playoffs and series ,if we get there,we will need 2 horses to pitch the majority of the innings.
Now is the time,get Halladay now.While we have the team core here.
Hey we’re filling the stands with 42,000 fans every game,I’m sure we have the money.
Posted: 11:23 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
Oh yeah, like last week when he allowed SIX RUNS but still got the win because the Phillies scored 8 runs.
Posted: 11:23 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Big Dipper
I love how everyone assumes that Pedro is going to be in the rotation soon. This is exactly like the Kris Benson deal from last year. Sign an aging pitcher to a small deal and offer incentives, if they succeeded and can pitch at the big league it’s a plus, if they can’t get outta the minors it’s a wash. Only $1 mil lost and it was worth the chance. The only difference is that Pedro is a much bigger name than Benson. Everyone needs to calm down.
And no Moyer is not going anywhere. First off no one is going to trade for him and secondly as someone else pointed out has been pretty good since May 19th when he turned his struggles around and is a serviceable 4th or 5th starter. For every win he got from strong run support he also has a loss from weak run support.
The Big Dipper
Posted: 11:23 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
Thats actually not true, look at the numbers. You clearly have not done that. They will start Pedro on the DL because they want him to work a few rehab assignnments to tune up, thats all. Plus, WHEN they trade for another starter – whoever it is – who would you take out of the rotation then if Moyer isnt already gone?
Lets see: Pedro in, starter in trade deadline. Lopez out, Moyer out.
Are you telling me youd rather keep Jamie Moyer in the rotation over JA Happ, Cole Hamels, or Joe Blanton.
If yorue trying to say that, then this conversation is over because it would be a joke to even acknowledge that idea.
Posted: 11:28 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
or the game before that when he went 6.1 and gave up only 1 ER against the Mets..
He’s been alternating good starts with bad for about two months now..
and along with his “WIN” when he went 5 innings, and gave up 6 Earned Runs…
he also had back-to-back No Decision Quality Starts..
7 innings, 2 Earned Runs at LA Dodgers
followed by
6 innings, 3 Earned Runs at NY Mets
adding anyone significant enough to replace Jamie Moyer is possibily going to cost us JA HAPP .. in which case we would still need Moyer.. everyone is so sure we want to keep Kyle Drabek.. well if we want to keep Drabek and Happ, we might not be getting the #1 or #2 starter we’re looking for..
if we want to trade Carrasco, Kendrick, and something else.. maybe we can get a nice #3, #4 .. and that guy moves into Moyer’s spot?
Posted: 11:30 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Big Dipper
Hey Jeff calm down buddy it’s a line from a movie (The Hangover) take your beef up with them and every other movie and TV show that uses the R word.
Pedro is on the DL so that he does not take up a spot on our 40 man roster while he does his rehab starts in the minors.
Show me a better 4th or 5th starter on a team that is not the Red Sox or Dodgers? His ERA has stayed high because of his rough start but every Phillies pitcher had a rough start. Remember when Geoff and everyone else was calling for Blanton’s head during his struggles? Fact is our “ace” has an ERA approaching 5, lets package him in the trade deal.
The Big Dipper
Posted: 11:31 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Miles
Geoff, I know you don’t like Moyer but there is no need to waste your breath about how he should be out of the rotation. Tons of people agree with you but it’s very unlikely that it’s going to happen. You have to know that.
The ONLY ways he exits the rotation are if 1) he has a complete meltdown, something like 3 straight starts of not being able to get out of the third or something and 2) We make a trade for a stud and Pedro comes up from the minors and makes three really productive starts by the end of August. Those are the only two scenarios where Moyer gets booted from the rotation.
If ERA remains unchanged from around 6, the Phillies are NOT going to do anything.
Posted: 11:32 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Big Dipper
Thanks Don M. someone else with common sense is on the boards today.
What makes you think Pedro will be better than Moyer? Is it the scouts who watched him pitch a simulated game against Dominican prospects? Or is the the stats from 2008 with the Mets? Or the stats from the good old days of 2003 and 2004.
Pedro is Kris Benson part deux with additional media coverage. You heard it here first.
The Big Dipper
Posted: 11:35 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 rob5000
Big dipper, while I slightly disagree with your view on moyers longevity in the rotation… I unfortunately have to agree with you about the writing on this site. Brian, philliesnation used to be a place where I had my brain picked with Tims insight and thoughtful articles. Lately I feel like I’m reading extensive comments instead of articles. I can read headlines anywhere… I’m really disappointed please get better.
Posted: 11:36 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
except its not going to cost us JA Happ. WHERE ARE YOU GETTING ALL THIS FROM? If a team asks for JA Happ then the deal is off. The GM has REPEATEDLY said that. Same for Drabek. Dont you listen or read or watch what they repeatedly say? Theyre not just posturing. You can tell when Ruben is posturing.
If we end up having to settle for a 3/4 guy then so be it. This team is NOT trading either of those guys. Theyre not stupid, theyre not desperate, so why do you think theyre going to act like a stupid, desperate team? You have this idea stuck in your head that we HAVE TO TRADE JA HAPP or Kyle Drabek for someone good. WHy? Just because Toronto said thats what they want? They know theyre not getting that. They know that if they want the Phillies to deal with them they have to play on the Amaro’s terms because there are no other options for Halladay right now.
Hamels, Happ, and Blanton will be on the team the rest of the year and next year too. So enough of this.
Posted: 11:37 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Jeff
Great there dipsy why dont jump off a bridge. I heard that line in a movie last week. You are a ahole dude. First off are you Moyers long lost son. This guy is a horrible pitcher. I have to hear my buddy who is a mets fan say i cant wait to face batting pratice. look at the runs he has given up in the first two innings alone. If he was on the mets he would be 2-8 this season. He is a product of our offense. He is plain aweful as a pitcher. lets see him face some good teams.
Posted: 11:39 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Big Dipper
I’m with rob5000, I used to love reading what Tim and others had to write because it dug deeper than what I could read in the paper or from other sites. Now I follow the Phillies beat writers on Twitter and I get the same information in less than 140 words. I come here hours later and see a larger post giving me no new information or insightful opinion. Every blogger chooses a side but I would at least like to see some explanation and some actual digging into the numbers and not just random slander.
Not bashing the site just hoping to offer some constructive criticism.
The Big Dipper
Posted: 11:41 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Big Dipper
Hey Jeff, your buddy whose a mets fan must have really enjoyed the July 4th game when Moyer shut down the mets giving up 1 run and 5 hits over 6 1/3 innings. Just like batting practice out there I guess.
He’s played the Mets 4 times this year the team went 3-1 in those games. Check your facts and don’t believe everything your buddy tells you.
The Big Dipper
Posted: 11:47 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 rob5000
So I don’t think we’re getting Halladay if RAJ really chooses not to budge with Happ and Drabek… That’s not to say the Jays don’t change up their price for the guy in which case who knows. Personally I think it’s all bull. He isn’t their main issue and I think the BJs are just blowin smoke.
But I’m telling you the Phillies won’t win a WFC with their rotation, even if Pedro exceeds expectations.
So who does that leave for the Phillies to realistically acquire. Frankly, the Halladay rumors seem to be a convenient distraction for the Phillies. I say they definitely make a move, but that won’t be on our radar more than a week before the deal gets done, so I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
Posted: 11:51 AM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
I don’t think any of us would have thought LAST July 15th that the Phillies would win a WFC with the rotation they had at the time, either. Hamels and Moyer were better than this year, but Blanton wasn’t here yet and Myers hadn’t proven yet that his stint in the minors actually helped him. Of course, that’s last year and this year has a whole new set of variables. But I think if everything falls into place (and that’s a BIG IF) this rotation CAN win. And that’s the rotation I listed earlier…one WITHOUT Moyer. WE need to keep exploring all available options, though.
Posted: 12:04 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Dipsy
Some things that make me wonder about why the Halladay rumours MIGHT be true: Why does J.P. Ricciardi keep talking about trading Halladay? Rosenthal (yeah, I know) reported during the game last night that the Jays would not rule out trading Halladay within their own division if that was where they could get their best deal. Good strategy, JP. And why do you keep talking? He also said that no one would be permitted to talk extension with Halladay before a deal is made. J.P……stop talking. And Halladay keeps talking about how he wants to win. IMO, Halladay told the Jays he wants out and wants out now and Ricciardi is trying to jack his value by putting the Red Sox and Yankees in play. If he were to trade Halladay to one of those two, I actually think Toronto fans should pull themselves away from their lattes and art galleries and burn their GM at the stake.
The Dipsy
Posted: 12:10 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 rob5000
So it doesn’t seem like anyone is against a trade for a starter. In fact I would go out on a limb and say that most people would hope the Phillies pursue a starter via trade. In that case, if not Halladay, then who do you think?
Posted: 12:12 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Carrasco isn’t good enough to bring back a TOP PITCHER in return..
the pitchers that we have.. with high values.. are Happ and Drabek.
If we want to get Halladay, his cost is high, so we would need to trade guys we might not want to. Of course Ruben is saying that they aren’t available.. that way it looks like more of a compromise if he agrees to deal “player X”
if he went around saying that Happ, Drabek, Knapp, Brown, etc.. were all available, then teams (example: Blue Jays) would demand most of those players.
But if Ruben says they guys available are Carrasco, Donald, Marson.. and the Blue Jays insist that .. Kyle Drabek is included to make a deal happen then it looks more like a win-win, because Ruben is giving up something he doesn’t want to.
…
Kinda the same way Ruben just took a $1 Million gamble with Pedro Martinez.. he “raised” .. now if they Blue Jays want to call his bluff and they still think he’s desperate, they can keep trying to demand more of our great players.. but the way Ruben played it was that he added a Wild Card in Pedro Martinez.. who won’t be here until the trade deadline anyway (so the Blue Jays think we upgraded, but aren’t really sure because they won’t see him at the Major League level) ..
its all a chess match right now.. I would rather give up prospects (who might be the next Joe Mauer, Tim Lincecum.. but might be the next Lastings Milledge, Homer Bailey) .. for Roy Halladay then be too stubburn to go get some more World Series titles while we are one of the best teams in all of baseball.
Ibanez, Utley, Howard, Rollins, Victorino aren’t going to be together much longer.. we have the most talented team maybe in Phillies history .. and we lack TOP PITCHING. … so lets go get it!
I’m not saying trade up the whole farm system.. but lets get a fair deal.. give up some top prospects, and bring in arguably the best pitcher in baseball !
Posted: 12:12 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Jessep
“There is also the unquantifiable aspect of…fun. Pedro is a very exciting, charismatic presence. Anyone who has watched baseball closely over the last ten years can attest to that. He always seems to develop a terrific rapport with young, especially those of Latin descent. With the Mets, it seemed like any time a player got a key hit while Pedro was pitching or made a nice defensive play, it carried the added bonus of “doing it for Pedro.” When things are going well, he is all smiles. The Phillies fit his personality to a tee, with a loose, friendly atmosphere and the presence of a true players manager in Charlie Manuel.”
— I thought Phillies players/fans/management hate that about the Mets? Did I sleep past the last 3 years where the Phillies constantly try to prove they are nothing like the Mets in their antics of having fun etc?
Posted: 12:16 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Jessep
Oh & By the Way. Halladay will hate Philly if he comes… and Toronto isn’t allowing teams to negotiate with him prior to the trade. Halladay hasn’t pitched a big game in his life. He stays in Toronto or heads to Anaheim that’s my call.
Posted: 12:18 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
When Pedro Martinez does a dance on the dugout steps after scoring a run… then we can compare him to Mets superstars like Jose Reyes and his buddies
Posted: 12:18 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
rob5000..I still think Erik Bedard is an option…and a cheaper one than Halladay.
Posted: 12:19 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Jessep
I guess you haven’t really watched any Pedro games or Pedro’s non-games with him on the bench then huh?
Posted: 12:20 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Ben
great post don m, i agree completely.
Posted: 12:22 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Halladay looks pretty damn good as the starter in the All-Star game last night..
Why will Halladay hate Philly ?? The weather is nice here in October, when we have playoff baseball … New York fans should remember the playoffs.. it wasn’t THAT long ago the Mets were there. Didn’t they win the NL East in 2007?
Posted: 12:22 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
All I know about Pedro Martinez at this point.. is that he MIGHT be better than our other options.. so I’m all for him wearing pinstripes.
The funny difference between the Mets and Phillies.. is that even if Pedro sucks.. we didn’t overpay for him like the Mets would have.
Also, Omar Minaya is the worst GM in baseball. That is all.
Posted: 12:27 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 psujoe
Ok, No laughing. Just trying to think outside the box.
Three team deal. Colorado, Toronto and Philly.
Colorado sends Marquis to the Phils. Chacin and Fowler to the Jays.
Jays send Halladay to the to the Rockies.
Phils send Donald and a pitcher to the Jays.
Rockies upgrade their #1 and get another year. Jays get to top prospects and two mid-level prospects. Phils get a #2/3.
Thoughts, modifications?
Posted: 12:29 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
Here’s one thought to that…..Why in the hell would Roy Halladay ever agree to go to Colorado?
Posted: 12:50 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Jessep
Halladay even though he’s from CO would reject that deal in a flash. That deal does nothing for his career. The only reason he has to leave Toronto NOW is if he A) has a shot at a ring within 2 years B) Can prove he’s a big game pitcher C) Doesn’t have to deal with a lot of crap from local fans and media. C is an opinion, A and B are fact.
BTW Toronto wouldn’t do that deal either.
Pedro’s ERA at Citizen’s bank is something over 7.00.
How is Omar the worst GM in baseball? Do you have facts to prove that or just everything and anything about the Mets is wrong?
Where would the Phils be right now if Howard & Rollins were hurt since May and Victorino since mid June? They’d be looking up at the Marlins… 6.5 back, shoulda been more but the Phils let the Mets stay in the game and once healthy, you’ll be reminded of the days you were in 1st and blew it probably.
Posted: 12:53 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
yea the Rockies have little chance of winning the NL WEST … and they would want to add to their team with another pitcher if they wanted to make a playoff run. trading away their current best pitcher in Marquis would kinda defeat that purpose
Halladay is form Colorado is the reason he would give it any thought at all.. but he wants to have a chance to win this year or next..
If im him..
Phillies, Dodgers, Cardinals, Angles, Yankees, RedSox are the only places I would consider
Posted: 12:56 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Jessep
this oughta be good. If you’re him why would you NOT consider the Mets?
Posted: 12:59 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 David, the Mets fan from Queens
A Couple of Interesting points…
Pedro spoke more about the Mets organization during his introductory press conference than he did for his supposed alacrity to be a “Phillie.”
Pedro Martinez has loved and continues to love the New York Mets. He can do his old ball club a favor by lobbing balls over the plate so that his old mates can catch up in the NL East.
Keep in mind that New York City is a culturally diverse city. In terms of the Hispanic community, there is a high percentage of Dominicans living in the city – he felt a close connection with the Latino fan base and his fellow Latino teammates. Pedro does not have that commodity in Philadelphia. He’s pitching in front of a mostly Caucasian audience that, arguably, will never understand him culturally like the fans in New York City did. I’m almost certain that he had the perspicacity to know about the cultural differences between the two mentioned cities before he signed with the Phillies.
I miss Pedro Martinez as an individual – he’s a genuine humanist and philanthropist. Yo lo admiro mucho.
Oh, Pedro! I hope that you like cheese steaks because you’ll be eating a lot of them!
Posted: 01:01 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
Mets really have LESS of a chance of winning this year than the other 6 teams Don mentions, that’s why.
Posted: 01:02 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
thats not a bad deal with colorado pending tweaks.
Guys, ROY HALLADAY HAS NEVER PITCHED IN THE PLAYOFFS BEFORE IN HIS CAREER. Thats a stone cold lock, though Id appreciate a check on it.
The point is, hed probably be fine, but you really dont know how hell react to a foreign environment like this with massive pressure heaped upon his shoulders.
Posted: 01:02 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Miles
Not bad PSUJoe, except I don’t think Colorado would take the salary. I’m not sure what Marquis is making. Fowler is a big time prospect and could definitely headline a deal. I think we would have to cough up someone like a Savery instead of Chacin though. If we could do Savery/Chacin, Donald, and a low level prospect for Marquis I would take it in a heartbeat. I don’t think Donald has a future with this team.
Posted: 01:03 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Miles
And please can we stop mentioning Eric Bedard….I vomit violently every time I hear his overpaid, underperforming name. Jamie has a better chance to throw more innings in a game than Bedard does. Sure, he strikes guys out and occasionally has a nice performance, but what good is a number 2 if he can’t work out of the 5th. The guy is a chump.
Posted: 01:06 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
David…that has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on this site. True, Pedro is Pedro. Sort of like Manny being Manny. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter where he pitches. He’s a competitor and will try as hard as he can for whatever team he is on. Pedro loves a crowd and I ‘m sure that if he does well he can very easily endear himself to the fans….”mostly Caucasian”….of Philly.
Posted: 01:07 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
Im not against trading good prospects, I just happen to think that you cant afford to trade Drabek or Taylor. And Happ is NOT a prospect, hes a known quantity now and is even more untouchable than a prospect.
For a top line pitcher, not necessarily Halladay, Id offer
Pick ONE of: Dominic Brown, Jason Knapp
Pick TWO of: Jason Donald, Joe Savery, Lou Marson, Carlos Carraso (guys in taht category)
Pick THREE of: Anthony Gose, Kyle Kendrick, Andrew Carpenter, Freddy Galvis, Michael Schwimmer, Vance Worley, Michael Stutes, Pat Overholt, etc (guys of that category)
That formula
One Great A prospect
two solid B prospects
three C/filler/sweetener prospects
is the same formula that got Dan Haren from Oakland to Arizona and the same one that got Sabathia to the Brewers last year. Now, mayve thats not enough for Halladay – in that case Ill pass on Halladay – but that should land you Cliff Lee or Dan Haren, or someone in that category (frontline pitcher not named Halladay)
Posted: 01:10 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
thats a fair deal basically. its based in precedent and history. So its doable. If they want more tahn that for Halalday then Ill pass.
Posted: 01:12 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 David, the Mets fan from Queens
Don’t get upset, Chuck – the truth can be controversial. What I’ve said is objectively true. Pedro is a Dominican man and will feel most comfortable with people from his native country or that at least speak his preferred language – just look at the demographics of New York City and Philadelphia. He’ll acclimate himself to Philadelphia rather easily, but I’d bet that he’d feel more comfortable in New York City due to my aforementioned reasoning.
Posted: 01:13 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Erik Bedard is still pretty nasty.. a 2.63 over 75 Innings isn’t an accident..
his last couple starts that you mentioned:
5.2 innings (so two outs in the 6th).. he was at 93 pitches, he had given up only 3 hits, 2 Earned Runs, 4 walks hurt his pitch count, 5 K’s … he left the game as he had just given up 2 runs.. and with two outs, they brought in a RHP to face Nelson Cruz, who then hit his 22 HR of the year!
the start before that he was coming back from shoulder inflammation, and was on a 75-pitch count. He went 4.0 Innings, 2 Hits, 2 Earned Runs, 1 walk, 8 Strikeouts! (against a dangerous Orioles lineup that went on to score 12 in the game)
The start before THAT.. was a month ago, early June etc..
So he’s not the world’s greatest pitcher, but I would DEFINITELY be glad to have him in our rotation.
Posted: 01:17 PM on July 15, 2009