What Does Pedro Martinez Bring to the Table?
Posted by Corey Seidman, Wed, July 15, 2009 10:25 AM | Comments: 173
Analysis, Posts
While the ink dries on Pedro Martinez’ one-year/$1M contract with the Phillies, the time has come to look at just how much value the Hall-of-Fame bound right-hander will have at this point in his career.
Opinions vary – some think Martinez is no better than the team’s other fifth starter candidates, some believe he is a vast improvement, while others are caught up in the big-name status he comes with. Personally, I’m a mixture of all three.
But since this is Philadelphia, let’s first look at the negatives.
Financial
Before the season started, Pedro was looking for a deal that paid him roughly $5M in 2009. Needless to say, none of the the thirty teams bit. The contract he has received from the Phillies is worth $1M, and, with incentives, could reach $1.5M. All in all, it’s a low-risk, high reward situation that is less expensive than many originally believed.
GM Ruben Amaro has stated that the addition of Pedro Martinez would not quell the team’s pursuit of Roy Halladay, but one would imagine that the spending has to stop somewhere. The Phillies are already paying more in player salary this season than they ever have, and if they were to trade for Halladay, they would have to pay a portion of his large 2009 salary.
Fans rarely, if ever, concern themselves with the pockets of their respective team’s ownership group, but let’s think logically about the Phillies financial situation for a second. They are already selling out nearly every night, and the stadium is poised to set new attendance records by seasons end. Adding Martinez and Halladay would not do much for attendance, because there is not much more to be done! Of course, the addition of these two pitchers would heighten the Phillies’ chances of a playoff berth, but in a weak, injury-riddled NL East, the postseason is already a large possibility. At what point does the player payroll shrink the team’s profit enough to make a move for Halladay…unessential?
I doubt that any of you want to hear about that. You, like me, want the Phillies to do what is necessary to bolster the starting rotation in order to increase the chances of winning a first round playoff series. Imagine that the Phillies end up playing the San Francisco Giants in the NLDS and are faced with the 1-2-3 of Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, and Jonathan Sanchez/Randy Johnson/Barry Zito. Being able to match that with Halladay-Hamels-Blanton/Happ would almost guarantee a series win against a weak offensive squad. But Hamels-Blanton-Happ? Tough to tell.
Quick aside: it is unrealistic to think the Blue Jays would accept a deal that does not include either Kyle Drabek or J.A. Happ, so no more time should be wasted on fantasies. It WILL take Drabek/Happ, Michael Taylor, Jason Donald, and an Andrew Carpenter-type to snag Halladay. We’re talking about a top-five pitcher in the game. While this may sound like a lot to give up, recognize that Taylor is blocked for at least two more years, Donald has been nothing special this year, and as good as J.A. Happ has been, his production will never come close to Halladay’s. He is cheaper and younger, but should not be “untouchable.” Drabek’s stock seems to rise every day, and it would be tough to see him go, but there are no guarantees that he will be a successful major league pitcher. This reminds me of the Yankees commitment to Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy in the Johan Santana trade talks. Do you think the Yankees wish they budged two years ago? I sure do. (Okay, back to Pedro.)
Velocity
My brother, Eric Seidman of Baseball Prospectus, wrote for BP and ESPN.com yesterday that “Pedro’s projection pegs him as virtually equivalent to what the Phillies could have expected from the likes of Rodrigo Lopez, Kyle Kendrick and a number of other internal options. However, if he is truly capable of hitting 91-93 mph with the heater as recent reports indicate, he carries much more upside than the revolving door of fifth starters currently employed by the defending champs.”
This is a HUGE ”if.” Reports have varied on the velocity of Pedro’s fastball. Earlier in the year when teams were scouting him, word came out that he was steadily throwing 85 mph. Now we hear 91-93.
Martinez’ average fastball has not hit 90 mph on the radar gun since 2003. Last year, it was 87. It should come to no surprise that the decrease in his fastball has led to the worst few seasons of his career.
2008 Was Dreadful to Pedro
In 2008, Martinez had the worst ERA, strikeout rate, HR rate, line drive rate, and opponent batting average of his career. His walk rate was the worst since 1993, his first full season in the majors. Batters made contact on a whopping 68% of his pitches out of the strike zone, BY FAR the worst percentage he has ever seen. His career number is 49%, and he had even lowered that in two of his three seasons with the Mets before 2008. An increase like that is astronomical, and is a direct result of less velocity and movement on the fastball.
Martinez has always relied heavily on movement and corner-painting, but a flat 87 mph fastball will not miss many bats, regardless of where it is placed. Once the velocity and movement go, it’s hard to find a different way to get guys out. Just ask Tom Glavine.
Why 2009 Will Be Better
If Pedro IS able to hit that 91-93 mph range, however, we will be looking at an inexpensive improvement to the starting rotation. Even if his fastball is in in the 89-91 range, he has the chance to be very effective, and I’ll tell you why.
From 2005-2007, Martinez was viewed as the ace of the New York Mets pitching staff. Unfortunately, he no longer had the “stuff” of an ace. The Red Sox recognized that and made the wise decision to let him become a free agent. Enormous pressure was placed on him to be the man he was in Boston, and he had relative success in his first season with the Mets. But the expectations of Pedro duplicating his success from 1997-2003, the best seven-year stretch of any pitcher in major league history, were absurd.
It wasn’t until Johan Santana arrived in New York that Pedro could be slotted into a more fitting role as a second or third starter. But he was not even THAT anymore, and he began trying to do too much. He couldn’t throw the fastball by guys anymore, no matter if it was on the black or not. And batters become more patient with Pedro, swinging at 10% fewer pitches in the strike zone than his career average. Simply put, New York was a bad place to be for Pedro Martinez.
But Philadelphia is the perfect fit. The Phillies are not expecting Martinez to be their savior, they are simply asking him to be a solid fourth or fifth starter. Little pressure is being placed upon him, and it is not hard at all to imagine him exceeding our expectations of being a six-inning, three-run, starter. I’m not saying he’ll go seven innings in his first start, but he has a good chance of being very productive at the back-end of the rotation.
There is also the unquantifiable aspect of…fun. Pedro is a very exciting, charismatic presence. Anyone who has watched baseball closely over the last ten years can attest to that. He always seems to develop a terrific rapport with young, especially those of Latin descent. With the Mets, it seemed like any time a player got a key hit while Pedro was pitching or made a nice defensive play, it carried the added bonus of “doing it for Pedro.” When things are going well, he is all smiles. The Phillies fit his personality to a tee, with a loose, friendly atmosphere and the presence of a true players manager in Charlie Manuel.
Who Does Pedro Replace?
Let’s fast forward to early August, after Pedro is signed, suited, and ready to go. He has just completed his final minor league start in preparation for the bigs, and he is called up to the Phillies. Who does he replace? In all honesty, if the Phillies are looking to be the best possible team they can be, the answer would be Jamie Moyer. Rodrigo Lopez has looked VERY good in his first two starts with the Phillies, and not just from a numbers standpoint. He has shown that he has tremendous movement on all of his pitches and uses the corners wisely. He is fully capable of inducing double plays, as he showed in his second start, and has worked well out of jams.
Moyer, on the other hand, has been very, very bad this season. Sure, he has the occasional solid outing, but the 8-6 record is completely a product of good run support. His 5.99 ERA is terrible, as is his 1.50 WHIP and .303 opponent batting average. In addition to the plethora of hits he is giving up, he has already given up more homers this year (21) than all of last year (20.) His ground ball/fly ball ratio is also getting worse. This is likely a result of Moyer inexplicably throwing so, so many more fastballs. In his time with the Phillies, he has thrown fastballs roughly 40% of the time. This season? Try 65%. That’s a 25% increase! For a guy whose fastball tops out at 82 mph. Hmm…
I’m sure I will draw the wrath of many fans, but these are all signs that it is time to call it a career. Moyer had a tremendous year in 2008, but he is showing his age in ’09 and it is no longer acceptable to justify his bad outings, especially if better options become available.
















Posts: 0 Aviad
stupid ass era
Posted: 05:47 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Big Dipper
So what your saying is that of the 150 starting pitchers in the major leagues (30 teams x 5 man rotation) he ranks around 70th in ERA.
In other words he is right around where a 4th or 5th starter on all teams are performing. So I’d rather hedge my bets with a guy who has shown to get it done, over Rodrigo Lopez who is unproven and Pedro who may or may not get it done or ruin the clubhouse. There is a reason he hasn’t missed a start and that is because he is durable and is not an injury risk. To fault him for being the worst pitcher to not miss a start just speaks to the fact that he had an extremely rough start but he didn’t miss any time and he was able to get back on track. In 7 of his last 10 starts he has given up less than 3 ERs in at least 6 IP.
Someone please show me a team other than the Red Sox or Dodgers that has a more reliable 4th or 5th starter.
The Big Dipper
Posted: 05:51 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Dave
No, what it tells me is that if Moyer had pulled that crap on any other team, he would have earned himself a benching, a phantom DL listing, or a demotion awhile ago, Dipper.
San Fran has 4 starters with lower ERA’s, Arizona’s top starting 4 have era’s from 2.01 to 4.53, Atlanta’s top 4 all have ERA’s of under 4.4, the Twins have 4 starters on the list with better ERAs. Heck, Colorado (Colorado!) has all 5 starters on the list with better ERAs than Jamie. There’s probably more, but I got bored looking. And I’m sure that of the 60+ pitchers who didn’t make the list, most of them have a much better ERA than Jamie, but have managers more willing to yank them, preventing them from getting enough innings to qualify. The fact that he logged enough innings to qualify for the list says more about Charlie’s bullheadedness and the problems with the rest of our pitching than it does about how good Moyer is.
Posted: 06:14 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 304 Corey Seidman
The Big Dipper – No, Moyer is not 70th or middle of the pack in ERA.
In the NL, Moyer is DEAD LAST (51st) out of all starting pitchers who qualify in ERA.
In major league baseball, Moyer is also DEAD LAST (92nd) out of all starting pitchers who qualify in ERA.
He is not middle of the pack. Where is anybody getting their information?
Posted: 06:19 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 The Little Guy
Corey and Dave keep proving everyone wrong on the Moyer front haha, its pretty funny
Posted: 06:24 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Manny
His ERA is the worst one, fine. That’s a very strong argument against keeping him in the rotation… but all we are saying is: in his past 10 starts, he’s giving us a chance to win (even by allowing 4ER in 6innings on avg). So keep him in there AS LONG AS HE KEEPS WINNING, even though we all agree that Ws is not a meaningful stat. Plus, with LOTS of games left vs the Marlins this season, keeping Moyer in the rotation is the right call for now.
Obviously, if he gets shelled and can’t make it past the 3rd inning in his next few starts, THAT’S when you reconsider and decide to take him out. But for now, he’s good there.
Posted: 06:58 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Dave
My point from going from the 4.72 ERA that Moyer apologists proposed (based on his last 10 starts) was that even during his “good” stretch,” he was average to below-average at best. And I don’t think it’s safe to assume that he won’t have another bad stretch.
And it hurts to do this, too, because I’m a big fan of Moyer. But that doesn’t keep me from thinking that maybe the magic has run out.
Posted: 06:58 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
Honeslty I am more concerned about the “Ace” of the staff giving up 5 ER’s than I am of Moyer giving up 6 ER’s. I am VERY concerned about hamels having a 4.97 ERA than Moyer with a 5.99. Hamels i currently 3rd on the team with ERA. Happ sits at a VERY nice 2.90 and Blanton is even at 4.44. like it or not Happ IS our best pithcher this year.
Posted: 07:16 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 mets88
phillies fans after having pedro martinez for 4 seasons all i can say is you can have him. after the first couple of starts youll see y. dont listen to reports that he feels better than he has in years he has said that for 3 years and he was either hurt or healthy throwing 86 mph nothing fastballs. so as a baseball fan please expect NOTHING from this guy.
Posted: 07:24 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Whack8888
Moyer has definately had his problems, and I think the team should be open to moving him to the bull pen or something if Pedro and Lopez work out well, but a few things:
1) 4.5 ERA is not that bad so long as the pitcher gives you that consistently. Moyer does have really bad games, but he seems to be hovering recently at around 3-5 runs. That is probably better than having a guy give up 7 runs and 1 run alternatively (I dont know Moyers exact stats so hopefully this is not what he has actually been doing recently).
2) 150 Starting Pitchers in MLB can be divided into 5 groups — if Moyer is our 4th starter or worse, than an ERA at about the 90th place is about what you would expect. I believe that would make him (simplistically) the best #4 pitcher in baseball. His ERA is not as bad as it sounds. Of course, teams like the Nationals etc. mess up this analysis, but at the same time, Moyer is 70 and not 90 so he still might be around where a good #4 would be.
3) Phillies offense is really good, such that a consistent 4-5 runs given up per game will allow them to win a lot of those games. This goes back to what I was saying about the 7 run vs 1 run alternating. Unless Moyer does really bad and gives up 6-8 runs etc. the team should have a good chance to win, even though ERA wise it looks bad. Also, a lot of the Phillies potential playoff competitors have much much inferior line ups, and that is one of the reasons they have better starting pitching. If the Phillies traded away Utley, Howard, and Victorino, for example, I am sure their pitching would look a lot better in comparison, but obviously that would be stupid.
Moyer shouldnt be stuck in the rotation if other guys are doing well, but he hasnt been as bad for the team as his numbers might suggest.
Posted: 07:30 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 304 Corey Seidman
If Pedro was throwing 86 mph nothing fastballs, the Phillies would not have been impressed when they watched him in the Dominican Republic and would not have signed him.
Posted: 07:58 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Dave
Since all the Moyer apologists want to use the 90th stat as a way to defend him, I’ll point out that there’s only 1 pitcher with 15 or more starts that has a worse ERA than he does (and 10 that have 10 or more starts that stink worse than him). That means that out of all the pitchers who’ve started for the whole season, he’s 2nd worst. That’s out of maybe 150 pitchers. I didn’t bother to count.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/count/441/qualified/false/order/false
Posted: 08:00 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 baseballfan
@ Dave, Not that I think the Mets have a chance in hell of landing Halladay, but a package would include Fmart,Flores,Niece,Holt,Parnell. The difference being is that the Phills can make this trade and still have a farm.hah. The Mets would be screwed for the next 10 years.
Posted: 08:06 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Dave
And doesn’t the thought of the Mets being screwed for the next 10 years make you chuckle? I told you it would be good for a laugh.
Also, to quantify what I just said re: Moyer, out of pitchers who have thrown 60 or more innings, he’s 129/135 and for those who have thrown 40 or more innings, he’s 196th out of 212.
Posted: 08:17 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Bebin
Whack8888- Who cares who the nationals throw out as their friggin 4th starter. You are really comparing the person who we need to throw out as our fourth starter(Moyer) to the nationals 4th starter. Seriuosly, I’m flabbergasted by that comment. I could throw in a couple of expletive’s but let me just stay calm and say that there is a reason why the nationals have been the laughing stock of the NL east since they came into the league. They suck. Moyer has been lucky enough to get run support doesnt mean that he will get it as the season continues on. I might piss off a alot of people but I dont even know why we signed him. I didnt like that signing at all sure give him a yr at 5 mill or something but not 2yrs. I know he was one of the regular season workhorses but please refresh my memory and tell me what the hell he did in the playoffs. So the phillies shouls have given him the obligatory 5-7 mill one yr contract instead of giving the guy a 2yr contract. is there anyway to turn him into a pitching coach helper or something cause I would love to see him in that position. I’m not a baseball cap guy but how much hit would we take if we cut him? all of it and are there buyouts in baseball?
Posted: 10:16 PM on July 15, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
Dave, Looking at all your posts, you really don’t seem to be the “a big fan of Moyer.” honestly. Prior to both Hamels and Moyers last outings, one of them had a 3.5 ERA for the prior 5 starts, and 4.72 for 10 starts, wanna guess which pitcher it was? Ill give you a hint, it wasnt the “Ace”. Enough with your absolute hatred of Moyer. He is, and is supposed to be the #4 or 5 starter. The Ace of the staff should NOT, I repeat NOT have an ERA over 4.0. Hamels had GREAT games, Ace like, against the Dodgers in LA, and Reds in Philly, thats why his ERA is so “low”. Hamels gave up 5 runs in the first 2 innings his last outing. My point is NOT in any way shape or form that Moyer is better, I am not dumb enough to believe that, However, my point is, as much as you want to believe that Moyer is the only reason we are “Only” 10 games over .500, he is NOT the only reason. The ENTIRE pitching staff has had there problems. EVERYONE. Lidge, Romero, Madson, Hamels, Eyre, Myers. So enough with this single point of hatred and point out real facts that ALL of the Phillies Pitching staff have had a piss poor year overall this year. Something has to give, and it is not just Moyer. Maybe fire the Pitching coach. Last year, they kept us in games, this year the offense keeps us in games. We can not and will not repeat if everyone from the Ace on down gives up 3-5 runs consistently. Hamels has what it takes, and has shown that for 07 and 08 honestly. Why is he pitching so poorly this year? Im not sure anyone really knows. Maybe the pay day got to his head, maybe the pitching coach isnt preparing his pitchers for pitching in a hitter park like Citizens Bank Park. But the fact that JA Happ who wasnt slated to be a starter at all this season has a 2.90 ERA, and is 6-0 and is pitching the best this year is kind of sad. Im very grateful for having Happ at this point, even Blanton has been looking better and better. I dont have the exact numbers on each of Blantons starts, but take away Blantons first 2 starts, his ERA I believe would be below 3.00, not 100% sure of that. There needs to be a change of mentality and preparation of ALL the Pitchers, not just Moyer.
Posted: 03:52 AM on July 16, 2009
Posts: 0 beta sigma shag
I know this is a few days late, and nobody will ever read this rant but, You are way off base calling Moyer really bad this season, I would say the opposite, his numbers are not so good because of a few bad outtings, I really think that if you look at it he has been a solid 5th starter, and I do not care where he really started in the rotation, he has been our fifth starter all year six inning guy 3-5 runs, is this great by no means but he is what the real baseball fans expected him to be.
Every once in a while he would get lit ;up but most of the time he would pitch 6 innings and give up 3 runs. And that is what he has done, so Corey you really need to get off your numbers kick, Pedro came in to stop the revolving door at the back end of the rotation not to replace moyer.
Posted: 10:45 AM on July 16, 2009
Posts: 304 Corey Seidman
Beta Sigma Shag – Numbers reflect what happens in a baseball game. I didn’t throw out a bunch of 2′s and 6′s and 12′s and such for the hell of it, I told the story of Jamie Moyer’s season in statistical form, which 100% accurately reflects how BAD he’s been.
It hasn’t been a “few bad outings.” For the 100th time, his ERA by month… 5.06, 8.01, 4.80, 5.56. Out of the 92 pitchers who qualify based on innings, he has been the worst. I really don’t see your point, at all.
I didn’t say Pedro was brought in to replace Moyer. I said that Moyer has been the weak link, and if he continues to be the weak link while Rodrigo Lopez proves his worth, the Phillies best interest would be to take Moyer out of the rotation. That is, if their interest is sending out the best five starters they possibly can.
Now, if Moyer pitches well against the Marlins tonight, and continues to pitch well thereafter, obviously my opinion would change.
I just really HATE when people try to make it seem as though numbers don’t reflect performance better than anything else. The stuff is quantified for a reason.
Posted: 07:00 PM on July 16, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
corey your right, Moyer sucks, how dare him give up 1 hit no runs in 7 IP. LOL. Sorry but beta sigma is “100% accuratre” you would be incorrect. 14 starts this season correct? a total of 4 or 5 outings giving up 6 or more runs, the other outings were 4 or less. All the starting pitchers are off.
Posted: 09:51 PM on July 16, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
corey is 4.99 a good or poor era? if you dont thing its very good, than you must Hamels is bad also?
Posted: 09:58 PM on July 16, 2009
Posts: 0 Aviad
i dont get why they get paid so much to swing a bat. i can swing a bat. ptuh.
Posted: 10:36 PM on July 16, 2009
Posts: 0 Salvador Martinsons
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Posts: 0 club car golf carts
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Posted: 01:15 AM on June 15, 2010