Offense, Moyer, Struggle in Loss
Posted by Amanda Orr, Tue, August 04, 2009 10:52 PM | Comments: 48
2009 Recaps, Posts
Only 13 pitches were thrown by Jamie Moyer in an easy 1-2-3 first inning. However, it took one pitch for the Rockies to take a 2-0 lead on Garrett Atkins’ home run.
In the third, the Phillies had a perfect opportunity to take the lead. Ryan Howard, the franchise leader in grand slams, had a chance for another. Instead, he chased a pitch in the dirt, striking out to end the threat. Howard is struggling mightily. He is 2-for-his-last-18 with nine strikeouts. To succeed against Howard, the pitcher needs to throw an offspeed pitch out of the zone and he will swing and miss.
In the meantime, Ryan Spilborghs drove in a run and Moyer walked Chris Iannetta with the bases loaded. The Rockies led, 4-0. There was life when Jimmy Rollins hit a two-run home run to make it 4-2. But the Rockies are known for their offense, and they had no trouble piling runs on Moyer and the Phillies.
Moyer lasted five innings, giving up six earned runs on six hits and four walks. Rodrigo Lopez wasn’t much better out of the bullpen. In two innings, he allowed two runs, in addition to allowing both of Moyer’s inherited runners to score.
The Rockies embarrassed the Phillies in their 8-3 victory. In order to be a successful team, the Phillies need their offense to pick up the pace and they can not have Moyer pitching like this.
Posts: 0 Jonathan Atwood
Moyer really looked like he was cruising along there at the beginning, but it seems as though his age is finally catching up with him. That being said, more often than not, the Phillies win when Moyer is on the mound.
Lopez certainly did not make much of a case for his staying in the rotation, or even in the bullpen, with his outing, although he did settle down in his second inning.
A tough game all around for the Phils.
Posted: 10:58 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 Manny
The Phillies lost this one because they rather face the Rockies, not the Giants, in the NLDS
/sarcasm
Posted: 11:06 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 NJ
Just a disgraceful game and not one to put down to Moyer. When the offense doesn’t even show up for the first half of the game you might as well be sending Sidney Ponson to the mound. Then to add what can only be considered a very questionable move by Charlie, sending a guy to the mound who hasn’t pitched in relief in 3 years when the Phils get a foothold back in the game is just baffling. It’s not like there weren’t other options at that point in the game in that situation than sending a guy who hasn’t adjusted from being bumped from the rotation.
At the end of the day this is no more than just another tick in the loss column but the Phils have got to stop giving teams they might see in October easy wins they don’t really have to work for.
Posted: 11:12 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 NJ
Manny- They’d never admit it but I don’t think there’s a player on the Phils roster who wouldn’t rather face the Rockies than the Cardinals, Cubs or Giants.
Posted: 11:15 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 Jeff
NJ you are a moron. Not one to put on Moyer. Yes our offense is slumping but come on man. 6 runs destroys your offense. After Jimmy made it a 4-2 game Moyer goes right back out and gives them more which kills our offense. You and the fans are sticking up for this waste. Get him off a major league team. He gives no chance. He is the worst pitcher in baseball. FACT
Posted: 11:21 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 NJ
And Jeff your an asshole, go crawl back in your cesspool of hate and if you want to comment on someone’s post you don’t agree with go ahead but don’t insult, you have no right.
Posted: 11:24 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 Phils Phan
I feel the love.
Posted: 11:26 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 Harold
moyer sucked, the offense sucked. and you know what, I love charlie but he sucked in this one as well.
Posted: 11:35 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 CZ
At least the Nats gave the Phils a pass tonight by coming back on the Fish…
Posted: 11:47 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 PGD
who even cares what moyer’s record is, he is extremely lucky to have won 10 games, the more important stat is that he has the 2nd worst era in the National Leauge among starters, he needs to leave the rotation when Pedro is ready
Posted: 11:55 PM on August 4, 2009
Posts: 0 Jeff
NJ are you drinking the kool-aid. Yes I am an asshole..Thank you. How can you blame an offense for Moyer. Before you blink its 2-0. Then 4-0. What kind of message are you sending your offense. Then Jimmy hits a bomb and its 4-2. Yes the offense has some life then he goes back out and destroys it. ITS ALL ON MOYER. Get him off this team already. You can pitch for this team and win 10 with that offense.
Posted: 12:24 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Philly Texan
Can someone please explain to me why the Phils are parting the waters for Pedro Martinez?
The guy was a great pitcher once, but he’s been washed up for more than a year.
There’s a reason not a single major league team had any interest in him.
You simply can’t take Happ out of the rotation for this guy. Happ’s been one of our most consistent starters all year. And come playoff time, I’d much rather have Happ starting than Pedro, who can’t pitch more than 5 innings anymore.
As for Moyer, this guy’s been a leader on theis team and is the winningest pitcher on the team the past two years with 26 wins. I know it’s not pretty, but the guy wins. He’s a perfectly serviceable 5th starter. And it would be a real slap in the face to take him out of the rotation for Pedro — who gave up like five runs in five innings at triple A!
Leave Pedro in the minors (or stash him in the bullpen). If Happ or Moyer really start to struggle, then bring him up. Otherwise, he’s $1 million insurance in case one of the starters gets hurt. If he complains, release him.
We don’t need him. And we certainly don’t need to re-arrange our rotation to fit him in.
Posted: 12:30 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Mike
I was once a bug fan of moyer but I think we need to accept the fact that he has not had the kind of year that justifies his role in the rotation, especially if the offense continues to be streaky
Posted: 12:57 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Mike
I was a big fan not a bug fan
Posted: 12:59 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 steve
it all depends on which jaime moyer shows up. jaime on the road is 6-2 with a 3.88 ERA and here at the cozy ol’ bank he is 4-5 and 6.83 ERA at home. either jaime shows up, gets his corners and stike zone and works a gem. OR he doesn’t get the zone, gives up nothing but extra base hits and gets worked through 5 (only went 7 twice) . terrible day/ night splits as well (5-1 DAY and 5-7 Night) Past his bedtime?. getting the sense the phillies think he is owed this privilege cause of his performance last year and how he “mentors” the younger pitchers. wouldn’t be surprised to see him retired or on another team next year. but honestly, is he any worse than escalona, lopez and others, get whats left out of him
Posted: 01:07 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Dave
Moyer doesn’t win those games, Philly Texan, the team wins them, as a team. Adam Eaton had a .500 record in 2007, but that didn’t mean he didn’t suck monkey dong.
And no one’s parting the waters for Pedro. They’re merely giving him a shot. It’s no guarantee that he makes it up to the starting lineup. Although, if they are “parting the waters,” as you say, perhaps it’s because they have a slightly more realistic idea about Moyer’s capabilities.
Posted: 03:20 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 » Rockies Pound Moyer, Phillies in Series Opener | Blogging-Baseball.com
[...] Phillies Nations’ Amanda Orr adds these comments on Howard’s flubbed bases loaded opport… In the third, the Phillies had a perfect opportunity to take the lead. Howard, the franchise leader in grand slams, had a chance for another. Instead, he chased a pitch in the dirt, striking out to end the threat. Howard is struggling mightily. He is 2-for-his-last-18 with nine strikeouts. To succeed against Howard, the pitcher needs to throw an offspeed pitch out of the zone and he will swing and miss. [...]
Posted: 03:38 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Jeff Y.
Moyer was horrible. Let him pitch to the fish only.
Posted: 07:06 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Bob
Moyer was awful….the offense was awful…..where was Chan Ho Park at? A 4-2 game in the 6th seems like a good time to use him out of the pen??
BTW, giving Martinez a shot is ok in my book especially if Moyer keeps going like he did last night. It seems as Happ with be the one in the pen if Pedro gets worked out and ready to go.
Moyer is not going to the pen, Charlie said it himself last night.
Just an all around annoying game last night. Down 8-3 Rollins tries to stretch a single into a double beats it and gets called out. Where was Charlie? Maybe that is a sign of how annoyed he was last night. Teams like the Rockies and Giants (While good teams) should not be handing you your asses in a game.
With all that said, still a 5 game lead. Time to pick it up, get back to basics and unleash hell.
Posted: 07:34 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Papa Thompson
Discouraging to see Lopez beaten around in his first bullpen outing. If he keeps that up, he’ll steal Durbin’s job.
Posted: 07:37 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Dhall
This whole “dance with the gal that brung ya” crap gets old. If Moyer continues to suck and Pedro is pitching decent, you pull Moyer out of the rotation and give him a chance. Do you want to win the division or keep guys happy? This team is maddeningly inconsistent. They’re either red hot or ice cold. They don’t seem to be motivated unless they’re fighting for their playoff lives…which they will be in another week or so if they keep playing like this.
I heard Cliff Lee asked to be traded back to Cleveland.
Posted: 07:52 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Papa Thompson
Who’s talking about moving Happ to the pen?
No Phillies starter has gone deeper into games than Happ. He’s gone nearly 6 2/3 an outing. Blanton is the only other Phillie starter (Cliff Lee excluded) who, on average, has pitched into the sixth inning. Here’s the innings per start numbers:
Happ: 6.46
Blanton: 6.266
Hamels: 5.857
Moyer: 5.635
Lopez: 5.466
Posted: 07:56 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 JR
It’s disappointing to hear Charlie’s “Stay the Course” mentality with Moyer, and even Lidge to a certain extent.
Everyone’s been talking about our wealth of pitching, but not working in Pedro in Moyer’s place is the equivalent of having $1,000 dollars in your savings but overdrafting your checking account.
Posted: 07:59 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Stuart
Yeah I agree Moyer has to be gone. He is not one of our future arms and want him to pull through and get experience. He is someone who will be retired in a little over a year and hes not going to get any better. only worse. Why keep him in the rotation? Maybe move him into the bullpen and give us a lefty out there, he just cant pitch a full game anymore, he can only handle a few innings, and that will put some experience into the bullpen and maybe he can help the pitchers out there.
Posted: 08:20 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Bob
Process of elimation:
-Here who is NOT going to the pen anytime soon: Lee, Hamels, Blanton, Moyer (no matter what his numbers are).
-This leaves Happ and Martinez. JR said on DNL last night that they see Pedro as a starter. He will get that shot very soon.
I agree that Happ has been our best starter and should stay. But the pen is missing 3 key pieces (Durbin, Romero, Condrey). Someone has to fill the void. All signs point to Happ being the guy that fills the role for a bit.
Posted: 08:26 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
This is funny, I called this when Hamels gave up 6 runs in 5 innings when he was on the mound. “what did Ryan Howard do to “earn” the Steve Jeltz, instead of Cole Hamels only pitching 5 innings and 6 ER’s? Really?” People just look at a box score and react. Has anyone ever heard of a win streak, or a team being hot? i.e. Im not sure I would classify the Giants as being hot when Cole (the FORMER Ace) got rocked by the Giants. Especially seeing how Cole Hamels gave up more runs in 5 innings then the other two games combined. Now Look at Moyer, same bottom line, but Moyer sucks and shouldnt be on a Major League team when he has 6 ER’s charged, against a hot Rockies team. Did you know that the Rockies since firing manager a few months ago actually have close to the 3rd best winning percentage, and have been a very good team? Did you know that they had won 4 in a row? So tell me, what is the difference between Hamels (who WAS the Ace before we went to get a REAL one) and Moyer, who is #4/#5 giving up the same amount against a better offensive team? You can say all you want that Moyer sucks, and he lucky to have won 10 games, but really, if you say that, then if you want to be fair, and speak the truth Hamels shouldnt be this year either. I dont understand the complete inability of people to speak the truth against Hamels, and always bash Moyer even if he gives up 1 hit 0 runs.
Posted: 08:49 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 beta sigma shag
Moyer is your #5 starter and he is going to get hit sometimes, he has had 4 out of his last 5 starts where he has given up 3 runs or less, he has given up 24 runs in his last 7 starts, or just over 3 runs a start over 7 starts, yes he only pitches 6 innings, but that is what he is, 6 maybe 7 innings 3 runs, that keeps you in the game, that is what a #5 starter is, and he is going to get shelled sometime, so 1 game in 8 starts he gives up 6 runs and only goes 5 innings, the guy has won more games than he has lost, he is not going to get removed from the rotation so get over it. If Howard would swing at strikes and not strike out with bases loaded in the 3 or 4th inning this game would have been entirly different. And sometimes Charlie is too much of a long run guy for my taste. In a curcial time of the game you bring in Lopez, who has not pitched in reief in a long time, just to see what he has out of the pen. As if to say this one is over, lets see what this kid can do in this tight situation. Why not Chan HO, or even Tyler Walker when it is 4-2
Posted: 09:35 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Fatalotti
Yes, Hamels has struggled this year, but he’s a young pitcher, and there is a history of pitchers (most notably Josh Beckett) who have struggled the year after being the WS MVP (or even a long playoff run) and then came back to fnish the year strongly, and went on to become great pitchers. Hamels should be booed and criticized, but the above facts should be kept in mind.
Moyer, on the other hand, has the second worst ERA in the majors among starters, and is not going to get better. He is 46 years old, and gets hit extremely badly by good hitting teams. I love the man, appreciate everything he’s done for this team, and wish him well, but he shouldn’t be in this starting rotation, especially if it means sending J.A. Happ to the pen.
Posted: 09:36 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 cas
I turned the game off when Ryan Howard struck out swinging at a ridiculous pitch with the bases loaded—-AGAIN!!!!!! This guy should stop doing commercials and be locked in a room with a batting coach and video. It’s not like he’s a rookie getting used to big league pitching. Why can’t he learn when NOT to swing after all this time?
Posted: 09:38 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 CZ
From Yahoo! Sports via Fangraphs information. Blieve me I was as suprised as I’m sure all of you will be to hear this.
“16) Pitchers should stop throwing Ryan Howard(notes) sliders. Like, yesterday.
The book on Howard is the same as ever: throw breaking balls, watch him chase. This year, he’s seeing more than ever. Only 45.2 percent of pitches thrown to him are fastballs, and 26.7 percent are sliders, more than seven percent over his career average. Newsflash: Howard is hitting 8.1 runs above average off of sliders, second in the major leagues to Shin-Soo Choo(notes). Want more evidence? Howard’s 1.7 runs above per 100 sliders seen is better than his 1.25 per 100 fastballs.”
The article ( http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AuH9P4h6bCerU029o7mhwmk5nYcB?slug=jp-fangraphs080509&prov=yhoo&type=lgns ) has a lot of cool info. I figure the Howard numbers have something to do with the high number of sliders that he sees. Basically given that number pitchers are going to make some mistakes and he is probably looking for sliders much more – therefore, he is bound to hit some of them.
Posted: 10:05 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 The Original Chuck P
cas… when Howard struck out on ball four with the bases loaded, I couldn’t have been more frustrated. I think that he needs to spend a little extra time in the batting cages to nip this funk in the butt. I feel like he has definitely been struggling a little bit lately. He has been striking out more (15 strikeouts in his last 10 games) and has only 3 RBI’s/1HR in the ARI, SF and COL series (so far). Numbers don’t always tell the story and I just don’t think he’s confident up there right now.
Moyer was bad… Rodrigo Lopez was bad… I think that it’s pretty clear that neither of those guys will be in our 4 man playoff rotation. I still think that it’s too early to close the book on Moyer as a starter but if it comes down to Moyer or Happ, Happ deserves to stay in this rotation.
What’s up next for Pedro?
Posted: 10:33 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 LH
I’ve attended a lot of games this year and the futility of continuing to watch almost broke my creed of always staying to game’s end. The crowd was excited for the return home of our boys and standing in the aisles heartily clapping after Moyer’s first inning pace of three up and three down. The Phils were anxious to prove themselves in the bottom of the first and started swinging fast and furious. Hammels has a WHIP (walks & hits per inning) of 1.5, yet our boys of summer ignored logic and chip at his offerings during short counts of balls and strikes. Jamie threw a two run homer in the second but the fan attitude was that we would overtake such a small lead. There was chagrin after the fourth inning, especially following Howard’s third inning swoon, but hope was not lost since it was still early. The top of the sixth inning arrived and the Rockies run feast reduce the game to an activity of watching water boil on the stove. Jamie missed pitch points and Rockies advances made him pay with a strong assist by Lopez who put the game out of reach. I know we can always pick up from a bad game but Hammels is the type of pitcher our offense should have capitalized. Bad pitching and offense is a terrible combination to sit and watch during a warm summer evening of anticipation. It’s best left forgotten progressing down the escalator to the exits and looking forward to another night where a better field of dreams is destined.
Posted: 10:36 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
I think the blame has to fall squarely on Moyer for this loss if for no other reason than coming out and giving up 3 more runs after J-Roll pulls the team ….and the crowd…. back into the game. Up to that point the game was manageable.
You can blame Ryan Howard for striking out or Rodrigo Lopez for sucking in a role that was foreign to him or whatever you want…..but Moyer putting those runners on base right away after the Phillies got on the board was completely worthy of the Jeltz.
Posted: 11:05 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Jeff
Bob hit it on the nose. I said it last night. Charlie does kill this team. You pinch hit Jaime in that innning. He should of never come back out. Charlie hurts this team more then he helps it. I wish we had Joe Torre. I understand he wont it all last year. He also had the best offense in baseball.
Posted: 11:07 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
Jeff…..seriously??? If you want Joe Torre, go root for the Dodgers. Anyone could question ANY manager for moves he makes. I admit, some of Charlie’s moves are puzzling. But to say that he “hurts this team more than he helps it” is ridiculous.
He won it all last year for a variety of reasons…..great offense, bullpen that came together, Cole Hamels, Joe Blanton coming here, Eric Bruntlett coming in to replace Burrell late in games, Brad Lidge, Chooch being great behind the plate, etc., etc., etc.,…..
Posted: 11:27 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Jeff… look at the team’s Joe Torre has had.. he should have 15 World Series titles. and Charlie Manuel outmanaged him last year..
…
Moyer had just gone 1-2-3 in the 5th..
Ruiz was on 3rd, with nobody out.. so even if Moyer gets out, you still have a guy on 3rd with ONE out. and the top of your order up.. Rollins got the run home..
and Moyer struggled in the 6th, walking two more before he was replaced with Lopez (who looked terrible last night out of the pen).. so pinch-hitting for Moyer wasn’t the move .. they were trying to get more out of him, not waste a pinch hitter early in the game.. and trying to save the bullpen after he just worked a perfect 5th inning
Posted: 11:33 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Bob
For the record I like Charlie, I don’t think he kills this team. I think the Lopez move with Park rested was questionable in a 4-2 game in the 6th, needing to stop the bleeding.
For his faults, he typically pushes the right buttons.
Posted: 11:38 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Holly
Thanks Don. I hope your post helps to quite Jeff…
Posted: 11:38 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Bob
And Charlie certainly pulled Moyer at the correct time, he was finding a groove going into the 6th. Then lost it. My issue was going to Lopez instead of Park.
Regardless, Charlie did not throw balls down the heart of the plate or strike out with RISP.
Posted: 11:50 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
I wondered where Chan Ho was as well. That’s typically HIS role and he WAS rested. Charlie probably figured that Lopez was up to the task or that he wanted to see if he fit that particular role. It probably wasn’t the best time to experiment, facing a playoff-caliber team.
Posted: 11:57 AM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
Don M brought up another point. as I recall 2 of those “Earned runs” happened when Moyer was pulled. Blame moyer all you want, but if Lopez had done his job as well everyone would be harping on Moyer giving up 4 ER’s. Go back to Hamels. 6 earned runs BEFORE getting pulled. Also do you really want to compare Hamels to Beckett? Come on.
Posted: 12:17 PM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
I just think blaming the Manager is a joke..
Moyer should have pitched better… Lopez should have pitched better… Hamels and Lidge need to pitch better.
Everyone outside of Rollins and Werth is slumping at the plate the past 6 games
Posted: 12:23 PM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
Lopez couldn’t do his job effectively because that… relief… hasn’t been his role before. He’s been a starter. Granted, he DID look awful. But I’m willing to give him a pass for last night because of the situation with his new role.
I will blame Moyer. The Phillies got 2 of the runs back, got the crowd into the game, only for Moyer to WALK to first two batters in the 6th. I’m not really sure who else you can blame.
Posted: 12:24 PM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Don M
Brian.. I think that Earned Runs.. and ERA mean so much more than WINS … so that fact that Kendrick had x amount of wins when he was here in 2007.. or that Moyer currently leads this team in wins, shows how much of a joke it is..
Meanwhile, Blanton has been incredible since about the begining of June, but only has 7 wins to show for it
Posted: 12:29 PM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
It would be interesting to examine each of Moyer’s 250+ wins to see if he’s HOF worthy. My guess, without researching it, would be no.
Posted: 12:41 PM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
Chuck I agree that This one was on Moyer, but not for the walks. Honestly what I am getting tired of is when Hamels gives up 6 runs in 5 innings BEFORE being pulled “he had an off day” or “the loss rests with Howard”. When Moyer comes out regardless of 4 of the last 5 outings hw has given up 3 OR LESS runs, “the loss rests with Moyer alone”. Honestly I am more concerned about a pitcher who USED to be the Ace of the staff pitching as HORRIBLE as Hamels. I am tired of the absolute hatred regardless of how Moyer Pitches. 1 hit shutout, and “he got lucky” Hamels can go out and give up 3 runs in 6 innings, and alot of people say “WOW hes awesome”. I have felt more comfortable having Happ and Blanton going to the Mound than watching Hamels. Is Moyer great, no, but prior to picking up Lee who was (supposed to be) the Ace of the staff? Hamels, not Moyer. So why is this Moyers fault for giving up 4 runs in 5 Innings putting 2 on, and having the bullpen give them up just to be charged to Moyer, but it wasnt Hamels fault for giving up 6 BEFORE being pulled? That is the main question. Also Fatalloti, Moyer is 88 out of 90 of starting pitchers, thats not ALL the starting pitchers in MLB though.
Posted: 12:44 PM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Chuck
I, for one, am not giving Cole Hamels free passes for his poor pitching. Sunday’s loss was his fault, for becoming totally unglued.
And I’m not going to blame Ryan Howard alone when, like Don M says, the whole offense besides Rollins and Werth have shut down.
Posted: 01:00 PM on August 5, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian of CO
I agree with those points chuck.
Posted: 01:03 PM on August 5, 2009