Comments on: Raul Ibanez: Pat Burrell in Disguise?

By: Randy Seidman

Randy Seidman — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:09:26 +0000

hey phils_ftw – hate to break the bad news to ya, but our beloved phils will not get past round one this year, and will only win the game hamels starts – well at least we dont live in chicago and have to root for the cubbies

By: I Think...

I Think... — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 15:17:09 +0000

In reality, Ibanez played a huge part in our early season games. Remember, most of his numbers were compiled early on. So Ibanez is actually worth a lot more than the #s you provided can actually tell. Had this #s been spread as thin as Burrells, who knows how much of an impact they really had?

Plus, had Ibanez not have been hurt, who know’s where his #s might be…His slump was a direct result of his DL stint. That is where you can truly see the difference. It is obvious that Raul’s injury really plagued him physically and mentally for several months, yet he was still able to produce what Pat did, and the season isn’t over yet.

By: cxl72

cxl72 — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:53:02 +0000

I went back and forth with your brother on fangraphs (and about everyone else there) defending the Phillies, the process and Raul as a FA. He’s been a great pickup and heaven-sent. btw, Eric is missed on Fangraphs, take care.

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 22:15:49 +0000

Funny how B.A. doesn’t make it into your comparison, Bruce. And there are a couple reasons why Burrell had a high walk rate, one of which was that he was almost no threat on the basepaths.
Don’t want to bash Burrell, but let’s keep that in mind for the Ibanez-Burrell comparison

By: Gregger

Gregger — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 22:02:17 +0000

Raul seems like a definite upgrade but let us not forget Burrell’s last at-bat as a phillie. Biggest moment of his life and one of mine too. Always love the man for that hit and his time here so I cannot bring myself to insult him.

By: Bruce

Bruce — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:32:51 +0000

A few select “Burrell Bashers” from past years will continue their tired carping when given the chance as in comparing him with Ibanez on this thread. That’s expected.

Since there is a comparison made between the two here, I thought I searched their records for 2008.

Burrell Ibanez
OBP 0.367 OBP 0.358
SLG 0.507 SLG 0.479
HR 33 HR 23
RBI 86 RBI 110
Career OBP 0.367 0.346
Career SLG 0.485 0.472
Career HR/162 31 21
Career RBI/162 103 93
2008 OBP v. lefties 0.406 0.368
2008 SLG v. lefties 0.545 0.497
2008 OBP v. righties 0.351 0.353
2008 SLG v. righties 0.492 0.470
Career OBP v. lefties 0.410 0.322
Career SLG v. lefties 0.540 0.411
Career OBP v. righties 0.352 0.355
Career SLG v. righties 0.467 0.494

Fielding
Burrell .991 (2 errors in 216 chances); 12 Assists
Ibanez .984 (5 errors in 316 chances); 9 assists

Overall, one can see Burrell having the edge especially in OBP and SLG. We know Burrell has a strong and accurate arm and can make catches in the OF (that he can get to). We know Burrell is a very patient hitter with a good eye and a reason for his 100 plus walks and a high OBP. We know he is fundamentally sound and intelligent and makes up for his lack of speed with instinctive ability as both baserunner and fielder.
We know he has those intangible qualities that are most desirable as a clubhouse leader. We know that once Burrell is fully healthy he will duplicate his career offensive averages for Tempa Bay next year. And he will be doing it long after Ibanez retires from baseball.

By: George

George — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:05:43 +0000

I’m not sure who’s the slowest now, but I do know that Wes Covington was the slowest man I’ve ever seen. He made Pat Burrell look like Speedy Gonzalez. Other people could walk faster than he could run. I saw him hit one off the right center field wall at Dodger Stadium once, the kind of thing that would be a double for anyone else, and possibly a triple for someone as fast as Victorino. The Dodgers’ right fielder, though, almost threw out Covington at first base.

By: ryan

ryan — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:12:50 +0000

Raul is a much better all around baseball player than Pat Burrell. Pat is a one tool player with a huge hole in his big long swing. He is one of the slowest players in the game, can’t play defense and runs the bases like my grandma. Raul hits for average, plays much better D, more clutch, more heady, can consistently hit balls in the gap the other way, hits way more singles, more homeruns even. There is no way you can compare the two.

By: Don M

Don M — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:39:33 +0000

The guy in charge of the Rockies this year should get some credit.. Cards GM… and the Rangers GM too

By: joedad

joedad — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:36:34 +0000

The clincher for me last was when the Phils won the World Series and Burrell avoided the pile and jumped away from whomever was running towards him. I felt it was either because he was hurt or wanted to avoid injury. Either way, it was an old man thing to do.

I don’t know who votes for GM of the year or even if it exists. Amaro should be in the conversation but they did not have a serious challenge within the division all year and had all of the major pieces return from last year. He was also able to release some high paid players (Jenkins and Eaton) that other, smaller market teams cannot afford to do. However it is impressive that the team did not melt down the year after being WFC like others have done.

By: Chuck

Chuck — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:33:28 +0000

I wonder if Prince Fielder is slower than Burrell…..he a pretty hefty fella. BUT…..HE hits for MORE power than Burrell…..AND if I’m an infielder covering second on a double play and Fielder is barrelling towards me…..I’m MORE intimidated by him than I am Pat.

Trying to think of others that are as slow or slower….not too many come to mind.

By: ChuckS

ChuckS — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:28:11 +0000

Raul has been better then I expected this year. I too though the signing was going to cause the phillies harm. My biggest worry was that all the lefties were going to be easy to contain. Aside from Ryan the lefties have been consistent. But there is one thing Pat has one huge advantage—Elvis.

Raul go get yourself a bulldog already.

By: Corey Seidman

Corey Seidman — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:26:53 +0000

To Pat and everyone else talking about Burrell’s conditioning:

I can’t give a specific reason why Burrell looks like the older player, or if slow starts were due to his nightlife, etc…but what I can say is that Burrell ENTERED the league with old-man skills (slow, bad fielder, hits for power, good eye.)

When you enter the league in your early, mid-20′s already possessing those old-man skills, you naturally deteriorate faster. I could give you a list of dozens of major leaguers with these “old-man skills” whose careers took a downward spiral FAST once their health started deteriorating. Maybe that is what happened to Burrell.

And if it did, let’s all be very glad his contract was up just in time.

By: Don M

Don M — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:20:21 +0000

Can anyone name players in MLB slower than Pat Burrell … Howard, THome, etc are WAY faster than him .. and Raul Ibanez isn’t anywhere near as slow as Burrell was ..

Again, I’m not trying to knock Burrell.. but the more people talk him up, the more reality needs to set in and show that he’s a below-average hitter for contract, below-average defender, below-average baserunner, below-average arm.. but he does hit for power .

so he’s got ONE of the FIVE tools..

By: George

George — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:06:52 +0000

Pat, have you ever had serious foot problems? If you had, you’d know that no matter what kind of conditioning you try, sometimes there’s nothing you can do to improve. Without decent feet, you can’t run, you can’t plant your feet to take a good swing, you can’t push off to throw. I always saw Pat Burrell as a serious player, not a playboy, and a smart defender who many times used positioning to compensate for lack of speed. He also played the wall very well. As Duffie_D put it, Ibanez just has marginally better foot speed.

Also, how well conditioned is a man who suffers a serious groin injury half way through the season? Sometimes injuries just happen, whether a man’s in shape or not. You can’t blame Raul for his groin any more than you should blame Burrell for his feet.

I’m not saying here that I think Burrell is the better player. I am simply saying, give the man a break. Give him a break for his injury-ridden season, too. He may help the Rays tremendously next year.

By: Chuck

Chuck — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:15:33 +0000

Speaking of Raul’s defensive contributions…..how about that catch last night at the fence, near the line?? I somehow don’t see Pat Burrell making that play.

By: karen

karen — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:13:45 +0000

Burrell was a great Philly…but that isnt translating much into another team. I would have liked Burrell to have stayed but Raul is great too…its just a different element to the team that adds a bit of something new

By: Don M

Don M — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:05:50 +0000

I dont think Burrell will have a job in the majors after next season …

By: Pat Gallen

Pat Gallen — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:01:59 +0000

DUffie, I just have a hard time believing that Burrell went the extra mile in the offseason. I always like Pat, dont get me wrong, but when you have foot or leg problems, you have to go that extra mile to make sure your as quick as can be. Maybe im wrong here.

Raul is a physical specimen and really seems to go that extra mile. Maybe Amaro saw that. Anyway, it’s moot now because everyone is enjoying the production from Raul, even if it isnt as even keeled as we’d like.

By: Don M

Don M — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:01:48 +0000

Except for maybe Base-on-Balls … I can’t think of a single aspect of his game that Burrell is/was better than Ibanez ..

Pat did some great things here.. and was the clubhouse leader of the team that PHINALLY won us a championship .. he’ll go down as a hero in Philadelphia sports lure .. but he couldn’t contribute ON THE FIELD the ways that Ibanez can..

Great pickup by Ruben Amaro…