Phillies Nation

The reason they had to trade Lee and not Blanton is not because of money. It’s because of prospects. Blanton wasn’t going to bring anything in return — not if the other team is eating a $7 million contract.

But let’s look at that scenario:
We trade Blanton for a bag of bats, but now we have Halladay, Lee and Hamels….for JUST ONE YEAR.

And a great year it would be….probably. But you’re banking everything on one year. And that’s so riskly, because baseball is a fickle game, my friends. What if Ryan Howard blows out his knee? Or JRoll? Or Halladay or Hamels gets hurt? Or some other injury or slump or fluke that prevents the Phils from reaching the World Series again.

Well then it gets ugly because Lee walks in FA (no way to afford him with Halladay on the payroll.) And sure we get draft picks for Lee’s departure, but meanwhile the farm system is bare of pitching prospects. We have nothing for several years. So in 2011, our rotation is Halladay, Hamels, Happ and, um, Kendrick, and….who? We got no one.

By trading Lee, we’re not banking on just one year. The team is set up for World Series runs the next two years at least and probably three.

In the next 2-3 years, our rotation could still be Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, and Kendrick or maybe Aumont (I know he’s had arm problems, but the kids is still a ridiculous talent.

Yeah, i’m kind of lukewarm on the trade too. We gave up a lot.

But I do see the logic here. Trading Blanton gives us one year window. Trading Lee gives us 2-3 years and keeps the farm system in better shape.

This trade is all about keeping an ace in town for a 2-3 year run at another title. Simple as that.

If it weren’t for Moyers contract we’d have room for both guys financially.

I cant figure out how I feel about this trade. I’m surprised that the Phils are giving up Drabek and disappointed about that. The idea is to construct this organization to win now and to sustain winning. This trade satisfies the first, but not the latter. In 2013, it will be Halladay and Utely and no one else.

It sounds stupid to be commenting about 2013, but its the truth……

FYI, I agree with the posts that right or wrong RAJ has balls and is willing to take chances that we’ve almost never seen before out of this organization. I may not agree with this deal, but i’m impressed with RAJ’s ability to make a deal happen.

The Mariners already moved Aumont to the bullpen. His stock has declined and he is nowhere near the pitcher Drabek is.

This trade didn’t “replenish” the farm system. The 2 best prospects in the deal were Drabek and Taylor.
This was a salary dump.

Amaro made a good move by trading for Lee last summer and ruined it by overpaying for Halladay and selling low on Lee.

Excuse me SDO….I think Ruben is a little smarter when it comes to this. Why we did what we did…

Lets see Lee gave up 6 to Atlanta- Lost, 3 homers in that game
Lee gave up 6 to Houston- Lost
Leff gave up 7 to Brewers- Lost. gave up 2 homers
Lee gave up 4 to Houston, Lost
He gave up 4 to Washington in a win.

Yes he looked good against the mets, rockies, cubs, dbacks and did well in the postseason. So did hamels. Lee did not last in any of those games past the 5th inning. If not for the postseason nobody would be saying anything. Halladay will not get hit around like that.

You guys all think you could have given up like nothing for Halladay. Thats what it took to get 4 years at least of Halladay. Im fine with that because it is for FOUR YEARS.

Lee clearly was not going to re-sign here. Plain and simple, they got a decent return, Morrow would have helped, a lot, but oh well.

Also. They were hovering at or near having about 10M left to spend before this trade….now…

Lee – 8-9M. Out. Halladay 16M in. Moving Lees salary closer to 9 they are 7M short now. 6M cash they get in the deal means theyre roughle a Mil short….sooooooo. they still have around 9-10 Million or so, maybe a bit more because I cannot remember the cost of the otehr signings right now. So, at least they have PLENTY OF MONEY to add a bullpen piece or two. Maybe a good reliever and a cheap starter.

this is FINE guys. as long as he stays healthy and as durable as he has been, i have NO PROBLEM with this trade really..

I’m despising the Seattle trade more and more by the hour. There’s got to be a bettor suitor out there. Weren’t the Angel’s shopping for an ace?

The angels had a light offer for Halladay though, meaning their offer for Lee would have been lighter…

Jeff-Don’t forget he didn’t have his best stuff and was below average against the Yankees in Game 5. Not being overly critical of Lee but he wasn’t as bullet proof as people make him out to be. Halladay is the better pitcher going forward and the age argument doesn’t hold much weight either considering it’s only a 16 month difference.

They should’ve held on to Lee for next season. Halladay-Hamels-Lee-Happ would’ve been unbeatable! The Phils dealt too many good prospects for Lee, and should’ve used him to at least get another championship then let him go to free-agency, as opposed to getting prospects of limited potential for Lee and no guarantee of a championship.

Cliffs Notes: Love the Halladay move, hate the Lee trade.

excuse me but hamels gave a better then lee performance in the post season a year before and most philly fans want to get rid of him. give up on a 25 year old lefty.

SDO-what magical crystal ball do you have saying that a better pitcher(Halladay) couldn’t do what Lee did? Halladay will make them better in the post season and regular season.

Put lee on the blue jays against the yankees and the redsox. no run support.

Also, for 2010, Lee making $9 mil is better value than Halladay making $15.75 mil and yet Amaro traded Lee away for next to nothing while giving up a ton for Halladay.

BY the time Kyle Drabek was ready to be a leader on this team… he would be leading a Phillies roster with probably only Utley, and Ruiz remaining from what we have now

Phillies are taking a shot the title, because they know that their GLORY DAYS aren’t going to last forever.. they just extended or chances past 2010 only … and gave us the great chance in 2011, 2012 also

Cliff Lee was definitely testing the Free Agent market in the offseason next year.. how do people still not understand that?? That news broke about a month ago, and people just refused to see that he wants to get his $100 M payday … can’t blame him for that, and can’t blame the Phillies for letting him go

Are the prospects we got from Seattle as good as the prospects we gave to Toronto? maybe, maybe not … but we now have Halladay coming.. and staying for multiple years (something we couldn’t have done with Lee)

..
The thing that gets me is the Taylor for Brett Wallace deal… if Michael Taylor could net a legit 3b prospect.. why didn’t the Phillies look into this type of deal before? I guess they knew that Taylor was going in the eventual Halladay trade.. but shocking to me that Taylor’s value would be viewed so high by the Oakland A’s … they have to be including another player from Toronto?

Compare the prospects given for lee to the ones gotten for him. Plus the half year they got of lee. Tahts all that can be said about that deal. Drabek and Halladay arent any part of it at all. Common sense will tell you this.

Halladay is worth more because he wanted to be in philly and would tkae below market. No extension no trade.

The real question is ” are the prospects we recoeved for lee equal to the prospects we gave up 4 him?”

Do we really think the Phillies front office has not done its due diligence on the Seattle prospects of which two are meant to be the best pitchers in their system?

Also has JP Riccardi not taught us armchair fans you can easily massively misread the market and at the end of the day Lee was an impending free agent no matter how you spin it…

are people seriously bitching about this move??

Cliff Lee isn’t anywhere near as good as Roy Halladay… so now we have the better pitcher for FOUR years.. instead of the other guy, for ONE .

Drabek has ZERO experience at the Major League Level …

maybe he’ll go down as the greatest pitcher ever, but I doubt he’ll ever be better than Halladay is about to be in the next 4 seasons with the Phillies..

Lee had to go because if he stayed, our payroll was pushing $160 Million… this ain’t New York (thank god)

Matt M – The way I’m looking at it is this:

Given the opportunity, I’d gladly trade Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez for a World Championship. Keeping Lee would lose those prospects, but would likely net the Phils a third World Series victory, so they’d essentially be doing just that: trading Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez for a World Championship. So Lee walks after that to test the market, who cares! Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez aren’t bringing us a Championship, and we lose Lee either way… so stick with what gets you a Championship– Lee.

Halladay and Lee both eat innings, so a leaky bullpen becomes much less of an issue; and since the free-agent market for bullpen pitchers sucks this year, keeping Lee gives you another year to try again. Having both Doc and Lee in the same rotation will sell-out the stands all year, so you’re undoubtedly going to earn back the cash you spend on Lee’s Salary.

You said that they weren’t getting anything better for Lee in the prospect department, I’m saying that’s precisely the reason they should’ve just kept him on board and lose him to free-agency next year.

Matt M – I’m not saying at all that Halladay isn’t equally as capable as Lee. I’m saying that for the price of $9M, we could have Halladay AND Lee NOW.

Schwalmy, to be fair to those on the other side of the argument, I would say the question is really “are the prospects we received for Lee equal to the prospects we gave up for him, plus the short time we got from Lee, and is the equation adjusted for any increase or decrease in Lee’s value based on his postseason experience, 4-0 playoff record or whatever it was, and 1.5- ERA.”

As me in several years, but I am really not impressed with what Seattle is sending us, and from their blogs, they weren’t either. M fans think they dumped some garbage on us, and they may be in a far better position than we are to know.

Now with Lee off the books, does that free up mo’ money? I suck panda farts when come to the money end of things…

Great time for the website to be down… I’ve been dying to see what people were saying on here.

My opinion… sliced into two separate deals, this doesn’t look great on paper (specifically the first part) but the end result is satisfactory. Two deals analyzed…

1. Lee for prospects: Lee could have fetched more on the open market… I’m guessing that Rube went to the Mariners first and probably didn’t do much searching beyond Seattle… Gillick’s good ole boys. Lee is worth two first round picks as a free agent so he should be worth at least one top 50 prospect. He’s dominant and he’s low risk (cheap for one year)… you can’t convince me that he’s not worth more.

2. Prospects for Halladay: Toronto nabbed three of our four top prospects for Halladay… two BA midseason top 25 prospects. One of Aumont, May, Ramirez or Cosart might be able to replace the sting left from dealing the man with the best curveball in the minor leagues (Drabek) but I see no one on the farm that has the raw power of Michael Taylor now that he’s gone. Look, I’m high on Dom Brown and his potential like everyone else but Michael Taylor is going to be a legitimate MLB power hitter… we don’t have anyone that we can say that about on the farm. I guess any good deal has some sting to it but Toronto was without options… really, who else was out there bidding on Halladay’s services? I’m THRILLED that we got Halladay for a VERY good deal (4 years with 2 options years is good) and I somewhat understand that we probably had to pay a higher price just to convince Toronto to let us negotiate that extension but I think that if Rube had played his cards a little better, maybe JUST MAYBE he could have spared one of Taylor or Drabek.

As a fan, I will say that it sucks that we can’t have both… it’s a business too and I get that but I’m in the business of fanhood. I live by the credo, “Show me what you’re doing to win.”

JeffS, the questions are “Does 4+ years of Roy Halladay, 1/2 year of Lee, Ben Francisco and 3 prospects give us a better team than had we kept the 7 prospects we gave up?” Abso-freaking-lutely.

badlukk13-First off, they’re coming off of their second straight pennant they’re going to sell out even if they didn’t have Lee and Halladay.

Second, having Lee and Halladay doesn’t guaruntee a championship. As you’ve seen the last two years, the bullpen is what wins in the postseason and keeping Lee with Halladay limits any improvements the team can make in upgrading the bullpen which is the only weak spot on the team. Their rotation is good enough to get them back to the World Series as is.

Third, letting Lee walk could backfire just as much as taking these three prospects from the Mariners. Judging and drafting prospects is just as risky as trading for them. Also, keeping Lee and trading Blanton would make the farm even worse than it is now because he would have commanded less unless they threw in Happ and they would be forced to rely on Moyer Kendrick and Carpenter next year or one of the FA pitchers(none of whom are better than Blanton or Happ).