The Dip: Business is Business
Posted by The Dipsy, Tue, December 22, 2009 09:11 AM | Comments: 134
Posts, The Dip
The Dip is back. Welcome to another edition penned by our own commenter, The Dipsy. Agree or disagree with what he says? Tell us by leaving your comments.
After a six month dance comprised of equal parts fixation, stubbornness, and incompetence, Ruben Amaro finally delivered Phillies fans Roy Halladay, gift wrapped with a bow on top, just in time for Christmas. While the front office finally seemed sated, the attendant loss of Cliff Lee – in an altogether separate trade – has left many fans with a bitter taste in their mouths because most of us believe it didn’t have to happen. Fans can view the departure of Cliff Lee in a number of ways: stupid, short sighted, panic induced, and cheap spring to my mind. I view the deal as the squandering of a once in a lifetime opportunity to become one of the great teams of its era. While the fans have been told the reasons why it had to go down this way, we’re still not sure we really understand. But maybe not understanding is better, because if we knew the real reasons, we might be that much more angry.
It’s A Baseball Decision
Giving up prospects to get a really good player does serious damage to your farm system – I get it. If we were getting blue chip prospects back from Seattle I could ALMOST understand it. From all accounts they are decent prospects. To my way of thinking, you don’t trade an underpaid Cy Young winner when you’re in the middle of a string of World Series runs just so you can add players to your farm system. If the Phillies had kept Lee, the minor league talent still would have been middle of the road. But we don’t need any players from there right now, anyway.
Worried about replenishing the pipeline? If I’m not mistaken we get compensatory picks for Lee and Blanton when they leave after next season. If the plan was always to make that second trade for prospects, it would have made a helluva lot more sense to make the Halladay trade then hang on to Lee and trade him during spring training when you can get more value. Perhaps we could have even traded Blanton instead. As a baseball decision, this was a poor one. But it was more than that.
It’s a Business Decision
David Montgomery, Wharton graduate, made a statement last week that the Phillies were “already in the red”. If you’re like me, you found these remarks to be disingenuous and insulting. There are a zillion ways in accounting to measure valuation and profits and I’m sure Dave had his pick of which one he wanted to use to back up his assertion. Just for fun though, lets assume that he’s being truthful. Operating from this premise I offer the following remarks.
Baseball teams are capital assets. The money that is made goes back into the team. That is why the Skull and Bones Society that is Phiilies ownership has turned a 30 million investment into about $500 million. This is called “capital appreciation”. Montgomery thinks we have no concept of this. I have my own business and on any given day you can ask me how my revenue stream is and I can say “it sucks”. Never mind that I’ve socked away a ton into my business over the years. Yet, because of the nature of businesses and how they are set up, I can still look a guy in the eye and tell him that, at the moment, “I’m in the red”. This is what the Phillies do.
Let’s assume that the Phillies really ARE struggling financially. Given the amount of gold bullion they rake in every year on attendance, TV, concessions, advertising, merchandising, blah blah, if they can’t turn a profit, I would suggest that they are working with a flawed business model and that they need to change it. I don’t know any business (and we are talking “business” here) that would allow the guys that run it to lose them money every year…well, except the Pirates owner. As a consumer, I implore the ownership to make the appropriate personnel changes to make the club profitable so I don’t have to see another Cliff Lee fiasco in my lifetime.
At the risk of venturing into esoterica, I would call the reader’s attention to a thing in business called “branding”. It is the concept that a business utilizes, through capital expenditure, marketing, commitment to excellence in the product space, and overall product quality, to gain an additional revenue stream that can be attributed directly to its reputation – it’s what all right-thinking businesses aspire to. This revenue stream can inure to the business during poor business cycles when other competing products are more effected. Think: McDonald’s, Clorox, Gillette, iPod. In sports, think of the Cowboys, Yankees, Dodgers, Lakers, Jeff Gordon, etc. Why do you think the Cowboys have so many fans in states not named Texas and why these same fans stuck with them after the glory days of the 70′s, and when they stunk in the 80′s. Because they did everything they could to win, had great players, and did it for a long time.
If the Phillies had kept Cliff Lee and won another Series, there would be kids growing up in Nebraska as Phillies fans. Buying Phillies stuff. Flying in for Phillies games twice a year. There’s a tangible dollar value in that. Montgomery knows it yet looks elsewhere because he and his partners won’t be around in 10 years to reap that money.
When the Phillies kissed off the chance to keep Cliff Lee for another year, they sent a message to everyone that while they’d love to be in the World Series, it would have to be on their terms. That approach inspires no one. While trading Lee saves the Phillies a few bucks in the short term, they missed the opportunity to become a money-making machine in the long run that another World Series title would bring them. The chances of that happening without Lee are considerably less. And THAT’S why trading Lee is a bad business decision, too.
Posts: 0 bruno
Great, now the rumors are that the Yankees are trying to trade for Lee. Nice job Amaro! Way to hold out for the best offer.
Posted: 09:22 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Griffin
I agree with the Dip. The Mariners are close to trading Brandon Morrow to the Jays, not that the Phillies need major league ready relief help or anything.
Posted: 09:29 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 GWFightinsFan
VERY WELL SAID! My thoughts exactly! It’s great that they got Halladay, but getting there cost us nearly our entire farm system, and to top it off they were too cheap and shortsighted to see the opportunity, both on the field and business wise, they had with Lee and Halladay in the same .
Posted: 09:36 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 GWFightinsFan
* same rotation.
Posted: 09:38 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks
I am SO tired of everyone spending the Phillies money. Last summer no one would have dreamed of having both Lee and Halladay. So, if Amaro had caved and given Happ and Drabek, et al for Halladay with no contract extension in hand everyone would have been happy. But once he gets Lee he has to keep them both because we want it.
Now we are all experts in baseball business and think we can spend another $10 million because we want to. ENOUGH.
The glass is more than half full. Stop looking for the negative. The Phils will compete and by the way, there is no guarantee that Lee/Halladay would even win the division, less the WS.
Stop whining!
Posted: 09:44 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 goosebumps
typical philadelphia sports
Posted: 09:47 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 joedad
1 – Capital appreciation is useless until you sell the company. Think how valuable Enron stock was one day and then how much it was worth the next day.
2 – The Phils are doing so well that they have to share revenue to lesser teams. They could be more profitible if they received revenue share. Is that the business model they should follow?
3 – According to Harris Interactive, The New York Yankees were the most popular baseball team followed by the Boston Red Sox, Atlanta Braves, Chicago Cubs, Los Angeles Dodgers and St. Louis Cardinals. Based on your assumptions, Atlanta should outspend the Phils because they have more fans in Nebraska.
Posted: 09:47 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Keith E
Dipsy said: ” if they can’t turn a profit, I would suggest that they are working with a flawed business model and that they need to change it.”
Believe it or not those were my exact words to my wife after hearing the Phillies aren’t turning a profit!
I don’t think the trading of Lee was RAJ. I said earlier here that we let Lee go for Eaton money!!!! Sickening. If Lee had a full year of CBP energy coming at him every 5th day he would have signed an extension. No doubt!
GO PHILS!!!
Posted: 09:53 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 BS
Dip, I wanted to keep Cliff Lee as much as anyone, and while I don’t think Monty was telling the full truth, I think you’re overestimating how much the Phils make and can make.
According to the Forbes article, the Phils made $16 mil before taxes with a payroll of $128 mil. Now our payroll is up to $140 mil. Let’s just assume their profits went up by an equal amount. We keep Cliff Lee, that’s another $9 mil. We still need to get a couple more bullpen arms, so that’s another $5 mil. That alone cuts down the $16 mil to $2 mil. And also leaves us with almost no money to make any moves in season.
A World Series isn’t a spigot for a free flow of cash. The Phillies market can only be so big. Going by the USA Today figures, last year, the only teams with a higher payroll than $140 mil were the Mets and Yankees. And obviously NYC is a much bigger market than Philly. Heck, even the Red Sox didn’t hit that mark and they’re probably the 2nd most popular team in the league. Meanwhile, our payroll went up $15 mil after winning the WS, and then now it’s going up another $27 mil after losing the WS. It’s one thing if the Phils kept the same payroll and weren’t profitable. And I hated the Bill Giles pennypinching days. But it’s obvious that they’ve put money back into the team. They aint the Pirates or Marlins no more.
If I had the chance, I would’ve kept Cliff Lee, and tried to lop off money elsewhere. But the last thing I can do with a straight face is criticize the team for being cheap or criticizing their business model when they’ve clearly put a lot of money back into the team.
Posted: 09:54 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Richie
I understand the frustration, and hearing Lee’s take only made it worse. There clearly is a budget though and quite frankly there should be. My main concern here is that watching a move like that happen tells me they are pressing on salaries and what does that say for the trade deadline? Or what happens next year when everyone gets increases and Werth becomes a free agent?
Posted: 10:05 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 bfo_33
I thought the anger would have died down by now. At least three problems with your argument:
- CBP is nearly sold out. The stadium can’t bring in much more revenue, unless you increase ticket prices. Then it will be Yankee Stadium – a bunch of corporate stiffs indifferent to the game.
- Boston, NY, and LA are “sexy” cities. Cubs have that lovable loser image. Phi is going to capture some true sports fans from Nebraska, but none of casual fans. Take Pujols out of Stl, and they are out of the top. It is as much about the city as the team, and Phi will never have the same perception as some of the others (I like it, but most of the country views it as a 2nd tier blue collar city).
- The Phils are spending $140M! This isn’t the Pirates, who by the way have far more cash flow per year than the Phils due to no payroll and profit sharing.
I would have loved to have seen Lee and Halladay on the same staff for a year. We are in for a draught after 2011, when the whole team turns over. It may take another 5 or 50 years to get back to where we are. Did they make the right move? We’ll know in a few years. With that said, accusing this team of being cheap is irresponsible and uninformed.
Posted: 10:09 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 mikemike
HEY GEORGE READ THIS WELL WRITTEN ARTICLE ITS WHAT I SAID AND Y MOCKED. IDIOT .STILL PEOPLE OUT THERE DONT GET IT WE GOT NOTHING FOR LEE NOTHING, LOOK AT WHAT THE YANKESS GAVE UP FOR A PITCHER. POINT IS 9 MILLION TO A TEAM JUST COMING OFF TWO WORLD SERIES SHOULD NOT MATTER. AND TO GIVE UP LEE FOR THAT JUNK IS A INSULT TO THE FANS.AND THE CITY AND THE THREE AND HALF MILLION LOYAL FANS WHO WENT AND PAID GOOD MONEY TO SEE THEM
Posted: 10:13 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Tony G
Annnd the yankees get javy vazquez… So world series pitching match up?? CC Burnett Vazquez Pettite… vs…. halladay… hamels (ugh) blanton? happ? :/
We are still no better suited to beat the yankees in the ws
Posted: 10:15 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
You guys are so negative. You cant have it all, they made a good decision based on a BUDGET. Some of you people have no concept of a budget because youre still in college and your mommies and daddies pay for everything still, which I was like in college to a degree too, but when you work you come to appreciate a BUDGET. The Yankees are the spoiled rotten rich kid with unlmiited money who can piss it away.
The Phililes cannot afford the same luxury UNLESS you want to only go to 2 or 3 games a year BECUASE THE TICKETS ARE SO EXPENSIVE YOU CANT AFFORD IT. I would like to GO TO THE GAMES STILL. That means they adhere to a budget.
Their next TV deal will be worth MEGA money as they are the third most watched team in MLB, so they will receive a boost up neaerer to Red Sox budget territory with that, but its a ways off. Until then, they have to behave in a financially responsible manner.
Moyer was a mistake. Polanco, Ibanez were pretty good decisions, and Ibanez will give you another good year out of this deal. The Doc will hold down the fort here, and Cole Hamels will come into ST and unveil a new pitch to everyones joy…he will bounce back – too much talent there. Blanton, Happ are solid. I hope they can land a decent 5th starter. I hope the bullpen will be shored up. The bench is better, the rotation is BETTER (slightly), the lineup is BETTER.
GET OVER IT. I miss Cliff Lee too, Im a bit sore about it because I enjoyed his approach and his zen-like mentality so much. Can we just PLEASE start to figure out ways to improve the 5th starter spot and the bullpen? Can we please start to get EXCITED about the season.
You guys should lsiten to yourselves some of you, you sound like SPOILED PUNK BRAT NEW YORK FANS!
We dont do that here. Get hold of yourselves.
Posted: 10:31 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Geoff
Javy Vazquez also folds up every postseason…so dotn worry about that. Itll make the division easier to win and itll mean they will grab another game in the WS next fall..now they need to shore up the rest of the staff to ensure that 4th win…
Posted: 10:34 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 shawn qwartz
The Phillies have always made money and that is why the silent investors choose to be silent. It is money first, winning second. The Phillies are blessed with a huge market, a stadium financed largely by taxpayers and the soul of an Enron executive. They will field a solid product and we are lucky that Ruben Amaro Jr. runs things. Remember that he has to deal with the stockholders, who are the ultimate power and decision-makers behind this team. An average product will net the stockholders a fortune. A great product will eat into profits. That is the truth, swallow it whole.
Posted: 10:57 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 The Original Chuck P
I’m torn…
Dip says, “you don’t trade an underpaid Cy Young winner when you’re in the middle of a string of World Series runs just so you can add players to your farm system.” I agree with that…
Richie says “There clearly is a budget though and quite frankly there should be.” I agree with that…
I say – the end result is that we have the best pitcher in baseball at a bargain price for at least four years and if Rube had to trade Cliff Lee away to get that, I’m certainly ok with it.
We would all love to speculate but the truth is no one on this forum is responsible for running a $300 million organization… no one can relate to the pressure of reporting to multiple constituents with conflicting expectations; shareholders that are concerned with the bottom line and fans/players who maintain unrealistic expectations. Everyone would love to see Halladay/Lee but someone determined that it wasn’t feasible to keep both and Rube decided that he would rather have Halladay long-term (than Lee for one year).
Despite what Rube says, I believe that this was a business decision… if Rube had it his way, I’m pretty sure that he would sign and extend everyone but someone has to keep their hands on the reigns… someone has to set the budget. I think that the magic number is $140 million and I think that Rube probably had to do some convincing to get that number as high as it is. The economic environment isn’t exactly perfect for budgetary increases…
Sliced into two deals, trading Lee was a bad baseball move and the deal was seemingly rushed (we probably could have gotten more)… our window of opportunity is now and we traded a cheap Cy Young winner for prospects…
BUT the reality is that we don’t have an endless revenue stream and we don’t know what discussions were had behind closed doors.
Posted: 11:00 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Brian Sr. of CO
We should have traded princess (Hamels). either way, after being COMPLETELY surprised how much money they spent on several players, to be welcomed back to typical Philadelphia sports of not keeping those pieces intact. same world series, with the 1,2 as Halladay and Lee, and we would probably be looking at another WS title. But really, I dont see how Montgomery cares at all about the fans. I really dont. I say this because despite the HORRIBLE seasons we have ALL endured, we all still say PHaithful buy merchandise and go to games. They still make money even when they are horrible, UNLIKE say the Marlins, where they were theoritcally in the middle of a pennant race the last few seasons (kind of) and yet they still cant sell out games or anything. I have been to plenty of games when the Phillies were HORRIBLE, and yet the stands were still full. Not as money I understand, but out passion and how faithsul we are can hurt us sometimes. Just my opinion.
Posted: 11:02 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 George
I almost didn’t read this article. Unfortunately, I did.
I am totally sick of people with no knowledge of the actual books criticizing the financial operations of the team. They repeatedly claim the absurd $140 million payroll number, never acknowledging that this is only PLAYER PAYROLL. It doesn’t include groundskeepers, maintenance workers, ushers, security guards, ticket window operators, publicity people, etc. etc. Are these people all working for free? They criticize ownership for raising the team’s value over the years, but that’s what business is all about. Any budget has to juggle things that nobody particularly wants to juggle, must eliminate certain expenses so that others can be met.
I agree with Geoff that some fans have become spoiled.
And mikemike: yelling in whatever language you’re attempting is only calling more attention to your functional illiteracy. “DONT” I can figure out–you just don’t know what an apostrophe is –but what is “Y” supposed to mean, anyway?
Posted: 11:10 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Ed R.
Javier Vazquez is nothing special. He is the ultimate 500 pitcher. One year he is great the next year he is awful. Last year he was great, this year he will probably stink. The Yanks can have him as far as I am concerned.
Posted: 11:16 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Adam
1. About the “in the red” comment: I’m pretty sure he said that they’re in the red, but he meant based on this season’s cost vs regular season expected revenues that they would be. They calculate that number assuming they won’t make the playoffs. I still don’t believe it him… just sayin.
2. The Phillies are not a cheap team anymore. Cheap teams don’t blow up payroll to keep all of their homegrown talent: Howard, Utley, Rollins, Hamels, plus Rule 5ers Werth and Victorino, and then, on top of that, bring in above-replacement-level players to fill in the gaps: Ibanez, Polanco, Lidge (maybe). Still, it isn’t fair to compare any team with limited resources to the Yankees. The Yankees have spent over $418MM more than even the Red Sox over the last 6 years. Over the same time period, the Yankees have spent nearly $610MM more than the Phillies. These numbers hardly even account for the monster contracts given to CC, AJ, and Tex. The rules allow for a team to spend like that, so the Yankees will. As a result they will win more World Series. Inevitable. Every other team in the league is stuck trying to win the WS “on their own terms.” (BTW: periods go inside quotation marks, Wharton boy.)
3. I think your view on the Lee deal is rather myopic. First of all, the notion that there would be fans cropping up all over the country based on one more WS appearance is ludicrous. Like crazy to the point of dumb. You shouldn’t have even said that. 3 championship appearances in 3 years does not make a franchise the Yankees, Cowboys, or Lakers. Those teams are what they are based on maintaining continuous success, not three years of success over a hundred-some year period. Second, do you think it would be beneficial to the Phillies’ brand to make it to the WS this year and then not make it back for another decade and a half? If we lost Lee and all we got were comp picks, those guys wouldn’t be around to help out until…2016? 2018? The prospects we got in the Lee trade are expected to help the big league club in 2-3 years. I don’t know how many times you’ve scouted Phillippe Aumont, but I have a feeling RAJ has once or twice. Third, continuing with the Phillies’ ongoing brand, do you know who the team currently has locked up beyond the next 2 seasons? It’s a short list: Utley, Halladay, Polanco with arbitration for Ruiz (who will be 33), Kendrick, Francisco, and Hamels (last arb yr for him).
The Lee trade was made in order to sustain success. It annoys me to no end that every Phillies blogger, the people whose shitty articles I read to entertain myself every day, does not even try to see the real reason this move was made. Instead they fill the space with some rant about how cheap the Phils are or how much business acumen they possess.
While I would have LOVED to see a Lee/Halladay/Hamels rotation, and just having Lee around in general, I understand the imperative of keeping the franchise in order. This was not just a “business decision.” We’re lucky enough to have a team whose business IS baseball (i.e. not the Pirates, Padres, Rays, or even the Tigers or Marlins); for this team, a business decision is a baseball decision. Enjoy Halladay.
Posted: 11:21 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Pete
here is an excellent analysis of Halladay vs. Lee as pitchers – might make some of the angry people here a LITTLE more positive….
http://www.reclinergm.com/head-to-head-comparison-roy-halladay-vs-cliff-lee/
Posted: 11:36 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT
F@#k budget. They can recoup any losses in the future when we have a bunch of kids making no money and CBP is still drawing 3 million every year. The branding topic is brilliant. The sox did it, the skankees started it and those rich UK soccer teams have been doing it for years also. This ownership is always behind and toooooo conservative. That’s why it took 28 years to win another title. Nowwwww is the time. They are still in bed with comcast. Nowwww is the time to start their own tv network, get away from comcast and have their games available nationwide on the baseball package all of the time. Until this changes, we will always be the gutty little team from Philly trying to grab that carrot once every 30 years.
Great work Dipsy.
Posted: 11:37 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Richie
If you step back and look at the big picture we traded Drabek, D’arnaud, Marson and Donald for 6 million dollars a half year of Lee and 4 years (not the 1.5 years it was supposed to be) of Roy Halladay (arguably the best pitcher in baseball). This is assuming Aumont and Knapp are a wash, Gillies and Taylor and Ramirez and Carrasco. Let’s not forget that Benny Looper was there head scout in Seattle and is on our staff now. I am sure he had a lot to say about this trade. He drafted those guys. Anyone who wouldn’t make the trade above is a fool. Cliff Lee had two of his best years the last two and still wasn’t as good as Halladay while pitching to the Sox, yankees and Rays most of the time. So let’s please end this here!!!
Posted: 11:37 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Dannie
George-
You are 100% correct. There is a reason that only the Yankees had a payroll higher than $142 million last year.
We very well might go into 2010 with the 2nd highest payroll in the league. If we had the first, uneducated Philly fans would still complain.
There are things to complain about the Lee trade if you want (quality of prospects, etc…) – but the payroll isn’t one of them.
Posted: 11:39 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 The Dipsy
I’m a capitalist. I love to make money. But if your only goal in this world is to make money DON’T BUY A PROFESSIONAL SPORTS FRANCHISE! When you buy a sports franchise you hold it in a trust for that cities fans and the fans of the future. You are entitled to a reasonable profit while providing the city that you serve the best product you can. The Phillies didn’t do that last week.
The Dipsy
Posted: 11:50 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 joedad
The Yankees need an outfielder and they don’t want to spend the type of money it would take to sign Bay or Halladay. They must be cheap
Posted: 11:57 AM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 bfo_33
Sounds like communism, Dipsy.
Posted: 12:11 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Ed R.
So instead the Yanks will overpay for an aging Johnny Damon.
Posted: 12:11 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 joedad
Great idea on the TV network while every company in the world is cutting back on advertising. Since it isn’t my money and I don’t have to worry about competition from the new MLB network or anything else, the owners should risk millions of dollars that otherwise could be spent on the team so they can launch a TV network so that we can bitch next year when they say they can’t afford to resign Werth.
Posted: 12:12 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 The Dipsy
It kinda is. Thats why they are exempt from anti trust laws.
The Dipsy
Posted: 12:12 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 joedad
Great idea on the TV network while every company in the world is cutting back on advertising. Since it isn’t my money and I don’t have to worry about competition from the new MLB network or anything else, the owners should risk millions of dollars that otherwise could be spent on the team so they can launch a TV network so that we can bitch next year when they say they can’t afford to resign Werth because they are cheap. Brilliant.
Posted: 12:13 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 joedad
The aging Damon beat the Phils arse last year.
Posted: 12:17 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 shawn qwartz
Pete……. Thanks for the comparison between Halladay and Lee. Very interesting.
Posted: 12:25 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Ed R.
Yeah he did, but I think they could have put anyone out there last year in the playoffs and they would have beaten us. Our pitching save for Lee was just not up to par.
Posted: 12:31 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Catch 22 f/k/a H Man
To me, the most frustrating thing is that it now appears that Javier Vazquez was in play and we could have gotten him for way, way less than the package we dealt to get Halladay. I would prefer a rotation of Lee, Vazquez, Hamels, Blanton, Happ to Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ and Kendrick and we’d probably still have Drabek waiting in the wings. Oh well . . . .
Posted: 12:33 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Ben
did someone really say we should trade lee to the yankees because they are looking for a starting pitcher? the braves traded for salary relief. melky is a bum, mike dunn is a bigger bum.
this is exactly what you get for one year rentals, and the yanks are a team that can actually afford a one year rental.
as for keeping lee, they would have had to stretch their wallets to the extent that only the yankees stretch and we would have had nothing to show for it after this year other than a one time chance to win the series.
last year we stretched to 6 games against the yanks with a lost cole hamels and a sick pedro and a beat to shit bullpen. we don’t have to the budget to just fill holes with money, we have to be semi-organic.
finally, did someone also say trade cole hamels? i guess that makes sense. move the guy that had an off year after a ws win (that never happens!) who is 26, has the potential to win cy youngs and be a 20 game winner, when he’s at his lowest possible value.
the amount of negativity around this lee deal is absurd. could we have done slightly better in the deal? maybe. should we have kept him at the expense of probably being budget strapped for the next few years and having a nearly empty farm system for the chance to have one year with him? as a fan i say absolutely, but the FO made the decision that doc doesn’t come here without moving lee. if thats the case, i make this deal every-single-time.
Posted: 12:46 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 william
I am so glad none of you people run this team!! Philly has a good team that will contend. leave the decisions to the pros and just enjoy the game and the team we have. you want the perfect team you will always be disappointed cause it will never happen.
Posted: 12:48 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Ben
catch, first of all vasquez is not even close to the pitcher that doc is. second, then where are we next year when vasquez and lee walk? finally, why would the braves trade him to us without paying a premium?
so we give up a package of a few not great prospects (maybe d’arnaud or taylor and change), just take on $12.75 million for an inferior pitcher even though we don’t have budget for that, and then he walks next year in FA. thats a good idea?
Posted: 12:51 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 william
Two trips to the WS without a Lee/Hallady combo and it is still not good enough for some people.
Posted: 12:52 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 shawn qwartz
Speaking about contract mistakes….Is anyone looking at Brett Myers? Is he pretty much done?
Posted: 12:58 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 bfo_33
The baseball anti-trust exemption is only for relocation of teams, has very little to do with day to day operation.
No one should be in a position to dictate what is a reasonable profit. The owners took the risk, and are weighing short and long term profitability as they see fit. If they do it poorly, no one goes to the games, in theory reducing their profitability.
The reality is that the Phils have one of the top 5 budgets for next year. You can’t complain about them being cheap. If getting Doc well below market value means they had to dump Lee to stay in budget, I’m all for it. It is a whole lot better than going all in one year, then dumping salaries the next (Diamondbacks, Marlins), especially when it often doesn’t work out as planned (Tigers, Mets, Yanks for most of the decade). If only the Flyers and Sixers could weigh talent vs value the way the Phils and Eagles do.
Posted: 01:00 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Joe Benigno
If the revenue sharing threshold was $162 million last season, how were they “sharing revenue with other teams”?
Posted: 01:01 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 BigMiles
Dipsy, you are being a bit overdramatic here. You, like most everyone else, believe that Lee and Halladay would have guaranteed a WS win and you will take this to your graves.
Making comments about kids in Nebraska wearing more Phillies gear if we would have kept Lee is one of the more laughable things I’ve ever heard. I totally understand the branding argument, but branding is built over time with core players from your organization like Utley, Howard, Rollins, etc.
And don’t tell me that a team isn’t doing everything they can to win when they get the best pitcher in baseball. That’s a ridiculous argument. You can be upset with the trade, but don’t be over the top.
This thing will play out with a very clear outcome as to whether or not we made the right decision. You are free to critique at that point.
I also want everyone to come back and look at these threads when Cole is dominating next year to see who the ones suggesting that we trade him are and what the hell they were thinking.
Posted: 01:11 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 griffin
I just had to chime in with this tidbit. According to fangraphs.com, the Braves received a “significantly better return for Vazquez than the Phillies received for Cliff Lee.”
The Phillies budget should not have led to the Cliff Lee trade-there were other ways to reduce payroll (non-tendering Blanton and Durbin). If trading Cliff Lee was a baseball decision, then Amaro could have done a lot better than the 3 Seattle mediocrities.
Posted: 01:24 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 The Dipsy
bfo – or whatever your name is. No. Anti trust has do with the whole structure of the game. If baseball was allowed to be regulated by the federal government like other businesses there would be no baseball. Genius.
The Dipsy
Posted: 01:32 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 The Dipsy
Hey BigMiles – When I was a kid (from South Jersey) I bought Cincinnati Reds and Minnesota Vikings stuff. I was a fan. I did not mean to suggest that Omaha would turn into Fishtown but gimme a break, you caught my drift.
The Dipsy
Posted: 01:38 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 Ben
griffin, its not significantly better. thats just a cheap shot at the lee deal. melky is league average, the prospect is equivalent to aumont, and mike dunn is a below average pitcher. they also got salary relief.
but they just made the best team better, which hurts the deal. yes they traded out of the division, but the last thing the phillies fans should be saying is “why didn’t we trade our ace to the yankees for their 5th outfielder, a bum, and a prospect and salary relief”.
Posted: 01:40 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 rob5000
I’m pretty sure if the Phillies lost the WS with a lineup like they have and a rotation fronted by Halladay and Lee, it would be one of the greatest failures of all time.
Shoulda kept Lee for the season and let Blanton walk. You think for a second he wouldn’t have gotten at least Randy Wolf numbers?
Let’s just say that the Phillies kept Lee… what type of apocalypse could have possibly happened? I honestly can’t even perceive how it would have hurt the Phillies in the long run, maybe that’s just because I’m a dumb college student and I don’t understand budgets… but I do know how to add and subtract!!
Lee- 9M
Blanton- ~7M (or more)
9 – 7 = 2M (chump change)
Posted: 01:45 PM on December 22, 2009
Posts: 0 griffin
Ben, they received Melky and the Yankees 4th and 6th best prospects. I’m just quoting a very reputable website’s analysis of the two trades.
Posted: 01:47 PM on December 22, 2009