Comments on: The Dip: Business is Business

By: philsgirl

philsgirl — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:27:51 +0000

Dipsy, great post.
It’s obvious most Phils fan feel more than a little blindsided by this deal, which is why we have so many posters who are either bitterly complaining or rationalizing yet not seeming quite convinced themselves.
As you and others on this thread have expressed, from neither a baseball nor financial perspective does the Lee trade at this time seem a sensible decision, but especially not from another one – the psychological. I’m sorry, but it would not have been *impossible* for us to have both Halladay and Lee in 2010, just for one year. A year when, for a brief time, we still have the rest of our championship-caliber core. Unfortunately, what I think it is soo difficult for so many grown people to wrap their minds around, harder even than swallowing missing consecutive WS wins by only 2 games of almost 180 played (which is still pretty hard), is that unless we *do* become champs next year, we will all be suffering from “what if” syndrome. What if we had had Halladay/Lee? At least if we wound up losing in 2010, we’d know we did it with our best possible shot in – honestly now – the forseable future. ‘Cause it’s one thing to accept what you did with what you had. But another to wonder what you could have done with what you could have had. This is starting out as a strange year because psychologically there’s a sense of disappointment before it starts and anything’s tangibly been lost, because in a sense something has been.
So $9 mil for that kind of psychological peace of mind (not to mention monster rotation), if you will? Hey, how many turned out for that little parade in 2008? How many do you think would be willing, if asked now, to donate, oh, $10-15 for a Halladay/Lee/Hamels year? I’d volunteer to carry the collection box, but oops, too late.

By: Chris.I

Chris.I — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:20:45 +0000

Don,
As much as I agree with what your saying…Lee wanting 5 years, and a Sabathia type of contract- True, absolutely true! But why trade Lee (for prospects who probably wont even last 2 years in MLB). Lee was already a lock on the roster for 2010. Why be cheap and not spend a few extra dollars to be favorites to go back and do it all? Just doesn’t make sense. I agree with letting him go after next season, but come on…Just one more year?

By: GWFightinsFan

GWFightinsFan — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 23:11:45 +0000

Right it’s not in their “budget” They certainly have the money, just chose not to spend it in order to significantly improve the team. And like Memphis said, if we’re one starter away from winning the WS, that Lee trade will look awfully bad.

By: Don M

Don M — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:23:16 +0000

THEY DONT HAVE THE BUDGET FOR BOTH PITCHERS AND HALLADAY SIGNED A TEAM FRIENDLY EXTENSION……

we could only have ONE of Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay…

we got the better of the two, and signed him to an extension…

If we kept Lee, he walks and the two draft picks probably don’t turn into as valuable a package as what we got back from Seattle

Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez might not be the greatest prospects in the world, but they all look like guys with a decent shot at making the major leagues at some point … which can’t be said of MOST draft picks, even 1st round draft picks!

By: GWFightinsFan

GWFightinsFan — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:26:31 +0000

Exactly, which is why its better to just suck up the 9 mil, hold on to Lee, have a GREAT shot at another parade, then let him go at the end of the season and collect two draft picks which we can hopefully turn into solid prospects due to our great scouting.

By: Memphis

Memphis — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:25:07 +0000

To argue that Lee has limited trade value (which is correct) is to argue that Lee should not have been traded — unless you’re desperate. He’s worth more to a contending team for one year at $9M than three decent prospects. Seattle seems to understand this. The Phillies do not.

To argue that Rube did this for budget reasons or to backfill the farm is to argue that Rube painted himself in a corner because of the Moyer-Ibanez-Lee (from Clev)-Polanco-Halladay moves and he was ‘forced’ to make a bad baseball move that hurts our team in 2011.

IF he simply doesn’t sign Moyer (due $6.5M in 2010?) and signs Ibanez for $25.5M/3 instead of $31.5M/3, Lee still fits into the ‘budget’, with Halladay and Polanco. Rube has made some questionable signings (not the players, but the amounts) and it’s bit him in this situation.

Budget-conscious contenders (Seattle being one) understand Lee’s ridiculous value at $9M (and the 2 compensation picks if he signs elsewhere). So trading him only makes sense if we were desperate to do so.

Look, Rube/Gillick have done a terrific job building the WFC and a championship contending team, but they aren’t perfect, and this just isn’t the best move they’ve made. They aren’t above criticism, and if Lee pitches well in 2010 and we’re one starter short in the playoffs (again), this move will be remembered and not well.

By: Don M

Don M — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:11:40 +0000

GW… the guys that we got back “are certainly not of the calibur that should fetch a Cy Young award winner.”

…
What about the old-news players we gave up for Lee in the first place..

Carrasco is garbage at the higher levels
Lou Marson probably won’t be an everyday Catcher
Jason Donald hits for average, with no set defensive position to play
and Jason Knapp has arm problems, but a high ceiling of talent

..
CLIFF LEE didn’t have a high trade-value because he has already stated (I this is probably the 200th time I’ve posted this).. that he will be seeking AT LEAST 5 YEARS .. and/or a “C.C. SABATHIA type contract”

that scares off every single team except the Yankees.. and they weren’t going to trade us Hughes, Chamberlain, or anyone TOP PROSPECTS because they know that if they really want to land him, they will just offer him the biggest contract next year in the offseason.. and be able to keep their propsects!!

It blows my mind that “baseball fans” can’t understand this stuff

By: Aaron

Aaron — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:09:38 +0000

People are being nuts on this site. Phils made an excellent trade here that will allow the team to remain the dominant team in the NL next year. Lee wanted a 6 yr deal next year which the Phillies would not entertain regardless of performance and I respect that decision. Lee for Halladay is an equal trade worst case and probably an upgrade in the long run. Not commiting to a pitcher for more than 3 yrs is the smartest thing Philly has done and abandoning that strategy is silly.

By: Jesus

Jesus — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:30:23 +0000

Dipsy, if owners always make so much money why would anyone ever sell a team or sell pieces of the team for cash flow, why would there have to be revenue sharing? I’m not saying that the Phils are losing money but the Phils have INCREASED payroll 5 years in a row! How many teams can say that? It drives me crazy when people make statements that just aren’t factual. Everyone keeps saying payroll, but everytime payroll goes up so do other costs not to mention we aren’t exactly in a booming economy right now and the Phils are still raising payroll. People who keep claiming that the Phils owners’ are cheap need to back it up with some facts. It’s really starting to get ridiculous.

By: Pat Gallen

Pat Gallen — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:38:22 +0000

Fernando Rodney thread is now up if anyone wants to talk about free agency over there.

By: blic

blic — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:10:55 +0000

when a company projects say 20% profits and only make 19% they consider themselves “in the red.” that’s the problem here, corporate double talk. we couldda’ had both lee and doc only that would mean the execs’ couldn’t upgrade the bmw’s ect. this year. i guess the world series isn’t much of a money maker anymore.

geeeez, phools!

By: Jeff

Jeff — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:06:14 +0000

Shut up DIP SH_T……I dont come to this site anymore because you are all babies. Stop rooting for this team you dont deserve it. We have the greatest pitcher in baseball for 60 million. You got a problem with that. Lee is a waste of space. Yea so he pitched well in the series. You wanted to kill him when he was giving up 7 runs against the Brew Crew. Those five in a row against good hitting teams that he got killed against. He is also a hunter. I hope he shoots himself. Killing animals. You dont own this team so shut up already. Now I know why everyone hates Phillies fans. You should be Mets fans. This team just went to the big show two years in a row. SO SHUT UP BOY

By: j reed

j reed — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:39:50 +0000

Wonder how much revenue sharing we pay now? Sure that goes on the Monty “in the red” column. Nice work Dipsy. Write something for SBNation…I think that’s what it’s called….open forum for anyone to write about sports.

By: j reed

j reed — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:35:17 +0000

I wonder before these good times if we recived any of the revenue sharing…anyone know?

By: j reed

j reed — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:33:38 +0000

I don’t think they pay taxes on the park cause the city owns it. I know the city owns it , just not sure about the property tax.

By: The Dipsy

The Dipsy — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:32:41 +0000

If anybody takes anything from this entry I would hope that it would be a greater awareness that when a baseball team tells you how much they are making…I mean really making…not the numbers they release to Forbes or Barrons, but what actually goes on a tax return, they are flat out lying. What else will they tell you? “Yeah, uh, the ownership as a group last year netted $110 million dollars”. Right. You will never hear the real number because you would be appalled. Players would want more money. We would scream at them to spend more money and to lower ticket prices. They need that like they need a hole in the head. The next MLB team that goes bankrupt will be the first one. Thats why the only thing standing between us a Cliff Lee is 9 million dollars and it makes me sick. And yes, its NOT my money. I just GIVE them my money.

The Dipsy

By: j reed

j reed — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:09:35 +0000

Ask yourselves this: how many loved ones get buried with a Mircosoft hat, or a Mobil shirt on….how many with phillies hat or lapel pin, or Flyers pennat, their favorite Eagle jersey….its more than just the owners money….they are stewards of a collective memory of an entire city over 100 years. That’s the part of baseball these a-hole owners don’t get.

By: Just Crushed

Just Crushed — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:09:16 +0000

This article was right on the money. Well written. I for one, having supported this team for 45 years through the best and mostly worst of times was insulted by Amaro and Montgomery. I may never get over this…it is so sad.

By: GWFightinsFan

GWFightinsFan — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:01:30 +0000

I’m not saying we shouldnt have gotten Halladay, i’m glad we did. All i’m saying is we’re not a significantly better team since we also traded Lee AND shipped off half our farm system. And i’m almost positive, none of those guys they got from Seattle will equal even one season of Lee, plus the two draft picks we’d get for him after he signed somewhere else. If you belive Montgomery’s spin about it being a baseball move and that the team is “in the red” i’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn…

By: shag beta sigma delta

shag beta sigma delta — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:00:22 +0000

are bums