Phillies Nation

Yes. I would take DeRosa @6m over Ibanez @ 11.5m. No question. Not straight all things being even. I would make that trade for the money. The Phillies have a “hard cap” ya know? The extra $$$ could get you Ben Sheets. How about Sheets and DeRosa for Ibanez because thats what it would amount to.

The Dipsy

And then Ben Sheets starts the season on the DL, and then goes out for the season my mid-June

so know you have Mark DeRosa playing LF instead of Ibanez.. and Kendrick is still your #5 pitcher

I don’t get letting Condrey go at all especially when it seems like our back up is unproven arms from the minors. So be it I guess.

Dipsy..You are NUTS!!

Ibanez isn’t an All-Star??? You want DeRosa and Sheets….for Ibanez??

YOU’RE NUTS!!

I’m gonna love it at the deadline when we’re in 1st place in the NL EAST

and we’ve got Ibanez playing LF instead of DeRosa

I would not sign sheets, for the money he is suppose to be asking for, 10 one year deal, he is always hurt no way. I really dont understand what they are thinking not bringing back condrey, he is a better option than kendrick or bastardo at this point. especially for a team contending for a world series.

Agreed Dipsy. What people aren’t seeing is that you are not saying DeRosa will give you better numbers than Ibanez, he won’t. But he will give you more for his pay check then Ibanez will for his.

So let’s say that Ibanez hits 25-30 hrs, bats .280-.290, knocks in something like 90 runs….in 140-145 games….and plays hard-nosed defense….as he always does…and is a major reason that we’re a contending playoff team..

You’re saying you would rather have Mark De Rosa out there even if he’s making half what Ibanez does?

Kevin Millwood was an All Star in 1999. Would you consider him an All Star?

Because if you do, you, Millwood and his mother might be the only ones that do.

It is a non issue. But but there are other guys out there that could fall in the DeRosa category. I’m almost using DeRosa as the generic guy who plays like DeRosa. If that makes ANY sense.

The Dipsy

Not if Sheets is gonna be hurt a lot of the time…no I wouldn’t want him then.

Yes I said “hard-nosed defense” I wouold classify Ibanez’ approach to the game as that. The guy made some diving catches and attempts last year that a lot of guys his age would have just put the brakes on.

Chuck – Give it up dude. Ibanez has the range of a four foot cast net. Sure, he tries, but he’s just not a good fielder. Stop. You would take Sheets for 1y 6.5. In the end, I’m not even sure it would take that much.

The Dipsy

I’s rather have a semi-effective but healthy Kyle Kendrick at $445,000…instead of an often injured Ben Sheets at 6.5MM…as my 5th starter.

Second John. Lets use this for an analogy: Firstly, this would be my forecasy for these two guys for this years if DeRosa played LF in Philly:

DeRosa 20 80 .280
Ibanez 26 95 .290 (He’s gonna bat six against RH)

Ibanez is better. Now lets assume Mike Gonzalez was not a type A free agent which he is and getting him was just a matter of money. Would you rather have DeRosa and Gonzalez or Ibanez? I ask this because that 5 mill you are saving will go towards Gonzalez’ contract, who you wouldn’t be able to affford otherwise if you had Ibanez. I will take DeRosa and Ibanez.

The Dipsy

Strike that. I would take DeRosa and Gonzalez.

The Dipsy

Have you ever seen Ibanez take an extra base? Or dive headfirst into a base? Or crash into a wall?

The Dipsy

Dipsy, Mike Gonzalez IS a type A free agent. You can’t just he someone is not a Type A free agent when they are. Besides do you think that Derosa’s average will jump 30 points just because he plays in CBP?

Before last year, DeRosa batted between .285 and .295 in the previous three seasons. I feel comfortable with my prediction of .280. No. Raul is not as bad a fielder as any of those guys I mentioned. I did exaggerate to make a point. The point that hustle, while nice, doesn’t necessarily translate into good fielding and in Raul’s case it doesn’t. He is in the bottom half in the NL but he is not brutal. He will catch what he gets to. He’s not a good fielder but he’s not the worst. Second John – I’m using him as an example for money purposes. I just used his name cuz it was easy. Lets say “a guy like Mike Gonzalez”. How’s that? My global point is this: When your team is on a “hard cap”, you have to allocate your resources more wisely. And I think that Ruben could have used the 30whatever million more efficiently than by signing Raul. Think Joe Banner if that helps. Or think of a stock. Ibanez? Like him at 7m, hate him at 11m

The Dipsy

sorry…what I MEANT to say was that you had no problem with the Phillies going over budget.

Here’s my problem with going over budget…IF you go over THIS year…and we’ll use the $9MM example that Cliff Lee would have cost…then that just open s the door to go over even MORE next year..2011…and more still in future years….

The precedent is set.

Next thing you know we look like the Yankees and Red Sox…and the average guy can’t afford to go to 8-12 games a year…sitting in decent seats.

I’m glad the Phillies practice SOME fiscal restraint…and stick to some kind of budget…cause I want to be able to go to those 8-12 games a year…or even more…and be able to enjoy them knowing I didn’t have to mortgage my house to do it.

I disagree that it would set a precedent. How often have the Phils been asked to go modestly over budget in order to keep their Cy Young award winning stud pitcher? Ohhhh…lets see. Once every hundred years? So your view is that the signing of Lee, that pitcher, would have set the snowball rolling down the hill, unable to be stopped, dooming the Phils and their fans to years of financial chaos? Chuck, in this regard, I think you’re a bit of an alarmist.

The Dipsy

Well, there is a chance that Derosa is starting to decline. Also according to Fangraphs UZR ratings, Raul Ibanez was the 4th best left fielder in the game with a score of 8.0.

It’s interesting that Mark Derosa’s hit a career high in home runs last year, but he had an almost career low in BA. (he hit .239 and .243 in 04, and 05). Since 2006, his average is dropping, while his home run rate is going up. Maybe he is trying to hit home runs? If that is the case that kind of player is exactly what we don’t need.

If Jason Bay, with his garbage fielding and so-so batting average, is worth $15 million per year, then Ibanez is an absolute bargain at $11 million.

Also, if you go over budget one year, you don’t set a precedent. It just means you have LESS money for the following year, and can’t afford a different key player.

The dollar value of players is always going to be skewed. At this point, the only really bad contract the Phillies have is Moyer. Lidge is unknown. That is not too bad for a top payroll team. Ibanez has limited value since decent FA OF’s are still available.

I agree (and had mentioned before) with bfo_33 that Victorino would be the Phillies most useful trade piece. His value is about as high as it can get: All-Star, Gold Glove, Playoff Stud, Switch hitter with great speed and mild power. He is still relatively cheap and controlled for two more years. I absolutely would have preferred to trade him for prospects (say Gillies and Ramirez) to replenish the minors than Lee. I also think signing Victorino to a $10M/yr long term contract is too high and that’s what he should be getting in a couple years.

For 2010, Werth and Francisco could play CF, though you would lose some range. Francisco/Dobbs/Mayberry/Gload would get their at bats in RF. Quinten Berry could be the emergency CF if someone goes on the DL. He can at least field and has some speed. He will not be much of hitter but would make a reasonable 5th OF. Assuming Polanco bats 2nd, then Francisco replaces Feliz in the seventh hole. Full season Francisco might be .250AVG, .310OBP, 15HR, 10SB which is not much worse than Feliz.

The bigger issue would come next year as Werth becomes more critical to sign since he is now the CF and Brown might come up in RF. Otherwise Francisco is your everyday CF and there are no good FA CF’s for 2011.