Comments on: Amaro Tabs Moyer as 5th Starter

By: Bruce

Bruce — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:25:55 +0000

Hip hip hooray for Amaro in supporting Moyer as 5th starter for 2010 season. I’m having a good laugh in reading all these rants by the Moyer haters. Same old, same old. LOL Oh, by the way, I remember the former columnist for this site, Tim Malcom and his infamous 2009 preseason prediction for Moyer. (more laughter)

By: George

George — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:27:54 +0000

Location was Hamels’ biggest 2009 problem, which is the first symptom of the “Verducci Effect.” That’s why his fastball was hit. His curve will never be a Koufax curve, but still can be effective if he spots it well and doesn’t insist on heaving five in a row. He got by for two and a half years with his current arsenal, so he must have something in the way of third pitch. Two-pitch pitchers generally don’t win for more than one year before the league catches on.

Still, another pitch would be a huge bonus. So will a better off season program and fewer injuries at the beginning of the year.

By: George

George — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:13:33 +0000

I’ll agree that for some, the Cliff Lee trade is hard to get past. But it wasn’t for me. He had some stinko starts in his Phils uniform, along with the good ones. He’s been a Cy Young winner, but also did a stint at AAA. In other words, he’s been up and down, and there’s really no telling who will show up, although he’s better at showing up than Brett Myers ever was. We got him fairly cheap, and that should show that he’s not the apple of every scout’s or GM’s eye.

I’m waiting to see the three prospects. They may turn out to be really good, and help the Phils in future years, at a low salary for their first few. Lee was never going to be “low salary”, not even as cheap as Halladay, and may have left the team with a huge rotation hole after 2010 if he couldn’t get what he wanted out of Amaro. If Lee is lights out for the next few years, and the prospects suck, then and only then will I complain.

By: The Dipsy

The Dipsy — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:52:31 +0000

Paul – When Cole is locating his first two pitches, he can get by with a middling to poor curve every once in a while. But when teams know you’re throwing it more because you’re struggling with your top two pitches, the element of surprise is lost, and it has little to no effectiveness. So it gets drilled along with everything else. And the curve is a huge issue if you wanna be a three pitch pitcher. None of his pitches worked in ’09.

The Dipsy

By: Paul Boye

Paul Boye — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:46:09 +0000

And sure, I recognize that pitch value is cumulative and Cole threw a great deal more fastballs. Still goes to show that the curve wasn’t the only thing that got hit.

But that goes back to BABIP and bad luck and all.

By: Paul Boye

Paul Boye — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:44:15 +0000

It’s funny how Cole threw a significantly larger amount of curveballs in 2008, but it’s a noticeable problem in 2009.

His curve was pretty poor in ’09, but his fastball actually fared worse.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4972&position=P#pitchvalues

The curve isn’t the huge issue it’s being made out to be. It needs work, sure, but it could just be a one-season blip (like Hamels’s ERA).

By: j reed

j reed — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:11:22 +0000

Don’t worry Lidge is worried about Lidge…

By: Philly Texan

Philly Texan — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:44:40 +0000

Dipsy,
couldn’t agree more about Hamels (except about the 20 game winners — we’ll be lucky of there are four 20-game winners in all of baseball this year.)

I agree with all your reasons. I also think the increase in innings from 2007 to 2008 contributed. The numbers are overwhelming for guys who increase innings that much—they always have a down year. The good news for Hamels is that the numbers also show that pitchers bounce back next year (two years after the increase) big time.

Cole will have a good season.

The guy I’m really worried about is Lidge…..

By: The Dipsy

The Dipsy — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:31:43 +0000

This is how I feel about Cole:

He started the season not so hot because he didn’t train that much in the off season. As a result, he had some problem with location on both his fastball and change and the beginning of the season and he got hurt early. Then everyone started harping about the “third pitch”, which he actually does need. So he tried to throw one, his curve. But his curve stunk and got hit. Now he can’t throw that, so he has to go back the fastball and change up that he can’t locate the way he wants. And he still gets hit. It was just that kind of season. I expect Cole to train harder, prepare better, work on something different to throw at hitters, and have a great season. There will be a team with 4 20 game winners again. History always repeats itself. Didn’t the 48 Indians do it?

The Dipsy

By: philsgirl

philsgirl — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:45:38 +0000

I am just so fascinated to see the Lee trade still mentioned in almost every thread! People want to get past the “Cliff Lee fiasco” so badly, SteveW, just *because* it is such a travesty. Everyone who says “just get over it,” thou protesteth too much. That thing we should just “get over already” keeps coming up because Philly fans were justifiably excited at the prospect of having probably the premier starting rotation in both leagues, with an awesome core, and most likely looking at another ring. Not so likely after 2010 in any case. Opinions about losing Lee, whether encouraging in a playful sort of way (sorry, Keng, wish I could agree, but don’t think there was chessmaster-like genius behind this move, sometimes a trade is just a mistake), or negative, or welcomed on this board, will not go away anytime soon. There certainly will be lingering avid interest in how well Lee does during the season, and if it *is* well, there likely will be continued rumblings and ruminations, no matter how *we*, including Hamels, are faring. In fact, unless we take the trophy, only Lee essentially crashing and burning in 2010 (not that I either expect that to happen, nor wish that on anyone, especially someone who so helped our organization and was happy to be here for the time he was) will sadly ever really put that gnawing feeling to rest for many. I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ll read “just get over it” re: this trade, not only on this board, and it’ll be following yet someone else’s just-as-valid opinion that this was a trade with an explanation that doesn’t justify the end.
I unfortunately agree with what Ed R. said earlier about teams with better 1-4 starting rotations this year. We *could* have eliminated the Mariners from that short list and been more than up to the task of facing the likes of Lester, Beckett, Lackey should we ever get to that point. Here’s hoping we get there. Yeah, maybe no starting pitching staff (thanks for the cool historical facts, Brooks!) will ever be the ’71 Orioles, but it would have been nice to see what we could have been.
I know many, including myself, have posted before about this but to have to worry about our 5th starter or whether Cole develops another pitch in time to make him a force this year still peeves me given what I’m not supposed to be thinking about.

By: Geoff

Geoff — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:41:15 +0000

Well…whatever. No big deal.

Halladay
Hamels
Blanton
Happ
Moyer

thats fine to start the season, Moyer will be replaced again later when he starts to get hit again. Until then I dont really have a problem with it.

By: Brooks

Brooks — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:58:48 +0000

McNally – 21-5 (he started only 30 games due to injury)
Palmer – 20-9
Cuellar – 20-9
Dobson – 20-8

1971 Orioles pitching staff – never again will we see results like this.

By: Philly Texan

Philly Texan — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:45:20 +0000

From this morning’s inquirer story:

“The Phillies’ belief in Hamels, who plans to add a cutter or slider to his repertoire of fastball, change-up, and curveball this spring…”

Cole’s working on a cutter!!!! Praise the lord!

If Hamels can throw a cutter even somewhat effectively, watch out for a huge season.

By: Milestone Watch: 2010 | Phillies Nation

Milestone Watch: 2010 | Phillies Nation — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:01:35 +0000

[...] the announcement earlier Wednesday that Moyer would be the fifth starter in the Phils’ rotation entering the [...]

By: SteveW

SteveW — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:51:43 +0000

Why do you people want to “get past” the Cliff Lee fiasco so badly? It’s impossible! It was a stupid deal and its going to come back to haunt them. As soon as Hamels or Halliday miss a start with injury or Happ comes back down to earth, its going to come up. Again and again and again. And it SHOULD come up, because it was a screw up the highest order.

Fortunately, this team is good enough and the rest of the NL bad enough that it probably won’t stop them getting deep into the playoffs again. But if that injury to Hamels comes in late October and Lee is tossing BB’s for someone else, I know I’m going to be yelling my head off.

By: Brooks

Brooks — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:03:01 +0000

George, with the numbers you mentioned – Halladay 20 wins, Cole 15, Happ, 12, Blanton 16 – then what the Dipsy said even an 11-10 season from #5 starter – right there is 74 victories. But, that is if everything goes right and something is bound to not go right.

By: The Dipsy

The Dipsy — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:39:27 +0000

My opinion that Jamie Moyer will have a poor year based on the following:

- Now, he 47!
- He presumably has not trained in about 5 months;
- He’s coming off two surgeries;

Would I take a 11-10, 4.39 out off Moyer this year? You bet. But he’s got a lot of things working against him.

The Dipsy

p.s. I wouldn’t think that Randy Lerch would make no. 100 in a list entitled “Greatest Pitchers named Lerch” list. But, what do I know?

By: j reed

j reed — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:57:54 +0000

man…i rather get blown by a Bengal Tiger than watch Moyer pitch.

By: George

George — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:02:26 +0000

That list of players was interesting. I knew a few rather famous Phils had also played for the Mets (I somehow confused Ashburn and Roberts, however!), and I’d even remembered a few more names before falling asleep last night. The most interesting thing was the number of lost causes on this list. They’re the ones who usually got moved before free agency began. Very few were in their primes.

75 wins from our starters would be great, but it’s not likely because of the way pitching staffs are handled these days. I doubt if any team will ever again have four 20 game winners in the rotation, like Baltimore did years ago. Halladay may be used enough to get 20, but Hamels’ best so far is 15, Blanton’s 16, and Happ is still learning. Oddly, Moyer is the only pitcher on the staff besides Halladay who has won 20 or more. I doubt he’ll do it again, though. If he does, AARP will raise an army and take over America. As much as I’d like to see him win 20, I have second thoughts, because I don’t want Betty White running the country.

By: Brooks

Brooks — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:02:12 +0000

Moyer as the 5th starter will only be icing. We probably have the best looking 1 thru 4 starters. None of us were seeing a mirage in Cole Hamels starting in 06 until last years heroics in the WS – he just needs to straighten his skirt and tighten his bolts. He will be one of the premier young lefties in the league once more. To go along with the best RH pitcher in either league as our #1. Happ and Joe will pick up probably 30 victories (hopefully) between them. Add the icing and are we close to 75 wins by our starters? As long as our offense holds up, like it did last year (until the WS), Jimmy has an average season for him, we now have a bench and a contact hitter as our third baseman.
Icing, dressing if you will a garnish.