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Beerman’s Report Card: Cliff Lee Trade

Posted by Nick "Beerman" Staskin, Thu, March 04, 2010 10:26 AM | Comments: 96
Beerman's Offseason Report Card, Posts

PHILLIES TRADE CLIFF LEE TO SEATTLE FOR PROSPECTS PHILLIPPE AUMONT, TYSON GILLIES AND JUAN RAMIREZ

Hello, dead horse. Prepare to be beaten.

As stated Tuesday in the Roy Halladay post – which prompted a slew of Roy Halladay vs. Cliff Lee and Kyle Drabek vs. Phillippe Aumont arguments on the comments page – the other shoe dropped.

Postseason hero and former AL Cy Young winner, Cliff Lee was dealt to the Mariners in a puzzling move on the same day that Roy Halladay was acquired. We were told it was to “replenish the farm system.”

Let me quote the former pro wrestler, Sid Justice, “JACK TUNNEY, THIS IS BOGUS!”

When is the last time you saw an NL Champion “replenish the farm system?” The term “NL Champion” means that the team was not good enough to win the World Series. Why? Well, pitching had a helluva lot to do with it.

This is the same Phillies team that had such little confidence in its starting pitchers against the New York Yankees, that Pedro Martinez started two games of the World Series.

For one year you could have had, without question, the best rotation in baseball. Who would want to play the Phils in a postseason series when you had to face Halladay, Lee and Cole Hamels? The rotation could have been set up to have not only the best top two in baseball, but the best 3-4-5 in Hamels, Joe Blanton and JA Happ. In actuality, it is not Roy Halladay that is replacing Lee in the rotation. It is either Jamie Moyer or Kyle Kendrick, cause either of them would have been the odd man out.

If Lee walked after this year, the Phillies would have received two-first round picks.

Those two-first round picks couldn’t have helped replenish the farm system?

Phillippe Aumont only pitched in 51 innings last season in the minors. How much further along could he be than a first-rounder? His size and stature are nice and he seems to have a powerful arm, but he is projected by many to never crack a starting rotation and pitch out of the bullpen for his professional career.

Tyson Gillies hit .341 in single-A ball last year, but is projected by many to be a fourth outfielder at best. The average looks nice and he has a lot of speed, but scouts have been quick to mention that the park he played in, Slater Bros. Stadium is one of the most hitter-friendly stadiums in the minors.

The other prospect in the deal was Juan Ramirez, another pitcher thought to be a reliever at best.

What it comes down to is the Phillies gave up an ace in exchange for three prospects. Since when can’t a World Series contender have enough pitching? Lee was due to make only $9MM this season. If the money was an option, then why not let Joe Blanton walk? Ruben Amaro gave up a $20MM pitcher, due to make a fraction of that. This is just bad business.

The Phillies have a stadium that is sold out nearly every night. Money should never be an option. Furthermore, the Phils are not in rebuilding mode for good reason. The team is built to win now. Look at the teams that have been a staple of success over the past few years: Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Angels. Do any of them ever make a deal to bring in prospects? Look at teams with payrolls that are near the top of the ranks like the Phillies: Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs, Mets and White Sox. Do any of them ever make a deal to bring in prospects, especially coming off a year when they just weren’t good enough?

NO! They want to win now. The Yankees went as far as improving their rotation by bringing in Javier Vazquez. The Red Sox brought in John Lackey. At the deadline and all but eliminated last year, the White Sox brought in Jake Peavy to help them contend later.

This brings two more interesting thoughts:

- If Cliff Lee HAD to be dealt…and I mean HAAAAAAAAD to be dealt, why did it have to be done on the same day as the Halladay deal? In a year that had a very weak free agent class for starting pitchers, you couldn’t have done better than a projected relief pitcher and a fourth outfielder? Amaro made this deal right away because of the backlash that he knew was coming. Fans would be much quicker to remember the loss of Lee by looking at the headline on the opposite page that reads “PHILLIES ACQUIRE HALLADAY”.

Imagine the backlash had he pulled the trigger on a Lee deal a month later. Seems like the easy way out.

- The general consensus of people who back this trade (keep in mind, people who back it still baffle me), was that Lee was not going to resign, so it was a “smart move.” How are fans so certain of this? Lee himself said that he was shocked he was traded and that they had just begun preliminary contract talks.

If that is the answer to why you HAD to trade Cliff Lee, then why is Jayson Werth still on the roster going into this year? He is in the last year of a deal and in line for a huge raise as he prepares to enter free agency next winter. Under those circumstances, shouldn’t Amaro have looked at moving Werth in the off-season too? That way we could have even more prospects. Teams in the Phillies position should not be in the business of moving All-Stars out of town via trades.

Fans are quick to love Amaro, but he is no Pat Gillick. Like I said on Tuesday, Amaro inherited a World Series champion with a deep farm system. Ownership has let the payroll increase on a yearly basis. While bringing in Roy Halladay was simply awesome, this might be the deal that Amaro is most remembered for. It really makes you wonder what his plan for the Phillies is.

beermansGradefWhat happens when come mid- to late-July, the Phillies decide they need another starter. It is no secret, pitching costs more in July than it does any other time of the year. Will Amaro dig into his newly replenished farm system and overpay for a Jason Marquis/Jarrod Washburn-type?

Is the plan to win a World Series or simply contend for an NL crown? The Phillies are the class of the National League. Nobody can doubt that. But in a seven-game series, who would you really take? Our Fightins or the Yankees or Red Sox?

What could Roy Halladay do in the World Series that Cliff Lee didn’t? Now ask yourself this, what could Cliff Lee do in the postseason that Pedro Martinez didn’t?

I understand we want the team to be productive for years to come. But which year is more important right now, 2010 or 2014?

BEERMAN’S GRADE: F

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About Nick "Beerman" Staskin

Nick Staskin has written 36 articles on Phillies Nation.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    was this even neccesary? . . .

    not to be a d!ck, but im pretty sure we’ve all talked enough about this trade over the past 2-3 months

    including just the other day.

    ..

    I didn’t even read this post, but the fact that it is here, gets an F

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    And the obvious was missed which is going to lead to a cascade of moaning so I’ll get the opposite started…

    The Phillies traded for Halladay and traded away Lee because Halladay is a superior pitcher who has taken a contract far below market value. The Phillies had to get prospects immediately who could be expected to contribute in 2-3 years time when the Phils have to re-sign virtually every core player on the roster and need young players making the veteran minimum to do so. The Draft picks would not have yielded anywhere near the prospects we received from Seattle, take AJ Burnet for example- The Jays received the 37th and 99th picks. The Brewers received one of the 39th and 47th picks plus the 73rd for Sabathia. Would you still say you’d rather take picks like those?

    You can’t look at pitching prospect in terms of innings pitched in the minors, the more pitching the more wear on their arms. Aumont is a 6’7 power left with a fastball/sinker that might be the best of any pitching prospect and already has a plus curve, a massive K/9 rate and low ERA’s and WHIPs. Although he’s probably not going to be the player Taylor’s likely to be Gillies who coming over was considered to have a light stick has an OPS only about 30 pts than Taylor and has over 100 walks 70 RBI’s and 70 steals in 230 games. Ramirez is a prospect some like Keith Law thought was the best in the deal.

    Who was going to give a better deal (because the draft picks were not an option)… Boston? NYY? LAA? none of them were going to give a prospect as promising as Aumont other than Westmorland if we were lucky and nothing more. Then who else could have put together a package superior to Seattle’s? LAD? ChiSox? Rockies? None of them had a comparable package.

    If you say what’s more important 2010 or 2014 than that is the very definition of front-running. The Phillies right now can be every bit as competitive in 2014 as they are now with a farm that is developing prospects like few others in the game. Had we kept Lee for this year and let him walk the door of opportunity would have slammed shut after the 2012 season because the Phils would be forced to not re-sign or sign stars because of having to spend millions in payroll on role players.

    It’s not an F, It’s not an A, right now it’s a C that was necessary that could eventually become a B or higher in time and the Phils are every bit as capable winning this year. Halladay/Lee was not going to win a WS, so many other things are going to come into it.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Don M- whats your 2 cents on the actually post Halladay deal sending Lee to Seattle considering the short and long-term implications on prospects and payroll vs the draft picks or what we could have got elsewhere?

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Don, you beat me to it.

    I don’t even know where to start there are so many ridiculous questions.

    So …….for now …….I’ll just think about it and maybe respond later.

    But one thing is for sure….not only is the “dead horse beaten”……the poor thing is now a rotting carcass.

    And I guess I’m a d!ck as well for even saying this.

     
  • Posts: 0 Jonathan

    You mentioned a rotation of Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Blanton, and Happ, but considering the Phillies payroll, currently over $140 mil, it would not necessarily have been Lee or Halladay but Lee or Blanton. Yes, Lee is a much better pitcher than Joe Blanton, but the truth is that you can only afford one for this year, and Amaro went with the guy that he could have for more than this year–Blanton.
    I think something Amaro will never admit is that his mission is to consistently put a better team out on the field each year. So we are not as good as we could be–Halladay and Lee would be insane–but we are still better than last year. And if we kept Lee (and lost Blanton), it would be extremely, EXTREMELY, difficult to put out a better team in 2011. You see this revitalized excitement in spring training this year. The morale has never been higher. The guys we have are working harder to become stars (Hamels, Happ, Kendrick).
    He’s not just replenishing a farm system. He’s building a team that feels like it has a better chance to win every year, even it achieves the ultimate goal every year.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    ^Oh it wasn’t Pedro that lost us the World Series. Lee along side Halladay might have been 1 more win and we still lose because of bullpen management and TERRIBLE situational hitting.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    I usually like Beerman’s writings for a chuckle but come on Pat or someone else needs to be writing this, you have to show the two sides of a the coin and have you facts straight, if not just to prove how right your are…

    “If Lee walked after this year, the Phillies would have received two-first round picks.”

    You look at the Sabathia and Burnett signings and you should be able to see those picks were likely to be so far from two first round picks it would make your head spin. It wasn’t the two first rounders the Bears received for Cutler you can hang your hat on. Amaro came out and said it would have been a likely very late 1st round pick if not a 2nd or 3rd plus a sandwich pick which isn’t a first round pick.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    NJ…

    Amidst all the “beating of the dead horse”…you know debating the SAME OLD STUFF…..answering the SAME QUESTIONS……

    ……you made a statement that is so telling and so obvious….”If you say what’s more important 2010 or 2014 then that is the very definition of front-running”

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Yeah, what about Howard’s AWFUL performance in the WS…..I guess that had NOTHING to to with why we lost..

     
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    NJ – I posted an article a few months back that I thought did a good job of thoroughly dissecting, in excrutiating detail, the logistics of the two deals. I believe in that scenario more today than when it was written. Google it (if you want or if you care), or I don’t know if you can get it on PN, but I think you were on holiday when it posted.

    I view the Halladay/Lee deal as one deal, not two. To grade it separately is a bit misleading, but if you were to do that, as Beerman has, it would certainly deserves a bad grade. For better of for worse, the two deals will always be married to each other.

    That said, The Phillies are a better team as a result of the two trades. They got the better pitcher and for the better price. I don’t really feel the need to grade these deals when 6 of the 8 guys involved haven’t played a day in the majors yet.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Oh, and you say that “money should never be an option”

    YES, it should!! I don’t want payroll to skyrocket to the point where the stadium is”sold out nearly every night” only to people that can afford very expensive seats.

    Because if you don’t manage payroll…EVERY YEAR…..and have some financial discipline……then that’s what will happen.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew R.

    One of the dumbest posts on this site. In fact, this whole “grading system” is a pretty dumb idea. Let’s grade the Phillies 2010-2019 seasons now while we’re at it.

    This Lee-Halladay shit is getting real old. We all know the arguments for and against. Leave it alone. I swear I’ve never seen so many people bitch and moan when their team is really putting together a nice run.

    We ended up with the better pitcher. A pitcher who is in the midst of what could be a HOF career, while the other guy only really had 3 good seasons in the majors.

    Ruben did the right thing. Leave it alone already.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Sorry I just get really riled up by this Halladay/Lee/Drabek/Aumont argument because I think the Phils both long and short-term come out way ahead… I’m happy to have the other side of the argument given it’s due but it’s ALWAYS completely one sided when that sides being discussed.

     
  • Posts: 0 Heather

    Point of order: Pedro pitched well enough in WS Game 2 that we could have won if the Phillies had scored at least a few runs. So stop blaming everything on Pedro. Next…

    I have said it before and I will say again there was “something else” going on with the Lee trade. That’s the only way it makes sense. Maybe Lee royally pi$$ed off management and the order was given to dump him immediately. Maybe the Mariners have a secret handshake deal they’ll give Lee to the Phils in July for peanuts if they’re not contending. I really don’t know what the “something else” is but otherwise this deal makes no sense.

    I will go so far as to buy the “replenishing the farm system” argument but 1 year of Cliff Lee for $9M should buy you better prospects than what the Phils got from the Mariners. Again, MHO is there was “something else” going on here.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Andrew….didn’t you know….this is Philly. People are gonna constantly bitch. Remember, The Pope and Santa Claus nearly got run out of town.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    “Something else”????

    So I guess there’s some kind of secret underground plot unfolding.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Beerman

    I was going to sit back and just keep reading some of these comments.

    So I have to ask people. Its mid July. The Phillies are 2 games up in the division. Seattle calls, “we’ll give you cliff lee for aumont, gillies and ramirez.”

    All you people who defend this trade say no right?

     
  • Posts: 0 Publius

    If a commenter brought up this trade again, they’d probably get yelled at (and rightly so). But hey, you’re a contributor so apparently you get free reign. This has been discussed ad nauseum, nothing is going to change it, we’ll have to see how the season plays out, etc. etc. Try writing something more relevant next time.

     
  • Posts: 0 bfo_33

    Beerman – I generally enjoy your articles, but get over the Lee trade. In general, a poor analysis, fitting selective data to match your opinion. One point I feel a need to comment on (the rest have been rehashed, the anti Lee deal faction will never change their mind anyway) is that one thing Halladay brings that Lee didn’t is the ability and history of pitching on 3 days rest.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Think the more relevant subject today is the best names for the Roy Halladay fan club or has that been discussed to death?

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Because Seattle realistically is gonna do that?? You’ve got to be joking, right??

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    My honest take on this is.. that while it would be AMAZING to have Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Blanton, Happ . . . it just wasn’t in the cards. We aren’t the Yankees, we don’t print our own money, etc

    The Phillies have done a GREAT job of spending wisely, and giving us GREAT product over the past few seasons (really since the Thome deal/new stadium) .. but as of last week, the stadium was already SOLD OUT for like 72 of their 81 games??

    SO they’ll be at max capacity… pretty much everyone has enough Phillies shirts/hats, etc. that the “BOOM” for that stuff has already reached its max after their two straight World Series runs.. . ..

    so knowing that they won’t be bringing in too much more money than what they have been… and knowing that if they tried to keep this team in tact, that not only would they have to jack up prices, etc.. but that it would really limit how good they are once this core moves on..

    We got the better of the two pitchers in Halladay.. and locked him into an extension.

    We got prospects in return for Lee, instead of two draft picks (since draft picks don’t mean sh1t in baseball, I like the prospects)… the draft picks vs. an extra year of Lee?? It sure looks terrible/frustrating/annoying right now . . . but if ANY or ALL of those three players makes it to the majors (where they’ll be under team control for 6 years.. ) .. then it gives us a better chance to keep Cole Hamels, Ryan Howard, JA Happ, etc.. when their next contracts come due.

    every team needs to have its fair share of $400,000 – to $4 Million players on the team, because you can’t build long term success if the average player on your team makes $$ Double-digit Millions per year

    since we JUST won the World Series.. there shouldn’t be this sense of “ALL IN” that so many of our fans have.. They are trying to become the Braves of the 1990s.. giving us a very good chance to be competitive and have a chance at the World Series every year.. I want us to have a good team for years and year more than I want to just raise the Trophy this year

    ..and this isn’t a case of “well the Eagles do that every year and we hate that” … because, again, the Phillies JUST won the World Series.

    Their BRAINS have proven to me (and Im not sure what else they need to prove to some of you????) that they know what players they want, they know which puzzle pieces will fit, they know when to let guys walk .. Pat Burrell.. .. they have proven that they know what their doing .. and they have my trust and my support as a fan

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    If Seattle are out the race at the deadline their most likely to deal Lee and for less.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    Does anyone know whether Cliff has a “no trade” claus?

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 The Beerman

    Don’t think he does Dipsy, considering he said he was blind-sided by this one.

     
  • Posts: 0 Geoff

    this is why sports are ridiculous to a degree. ENJOY THE GAMES, its a nice distraction from the daily rat race. Enjoy that.

    It is pathetic that people are still obsessing over something that is OVER. The trade makes perfect sense if you want stability at the front of the rotation for years to come, who cares which guy is there to give it to you?

    This is literally the same as complaining that your team traded Peyton Manning for Tom Brady. Its ABSURD.

    Enjoy the games, guys, this is a great time to be a fan!

    Yes this is the same Geoff, I just have a better outlook about all this than years past.

     
  • Posts: 0 John

    The thing I like about the Lee trade was that Ruben went out and got professional ball players, and was able to be selective. (Guys who have actually made it beyond the HS or collegiate level) Not knowing who will be available in the draft or which picks you will receive really takes the Phils out of the driver seat. Certainly money always is the main driving factor, it seems like RAJ didn’t feel he’d be able to resign Lee to a deal he felt was of fair value/length, so he did the next best thing, maximized his return. Sure, he probably could’ve gotten some major leaguers, but really, who do we need? More bench players? A pen arm? To me, that’s just as much of a risk as a few high-ceiling minor leaguers.

    NJ – I hereby submit for nomination “Leroy’s Loonies”

     
  • Posts: 0 Manny

    The Cliff Lee deal baffled me the second I heard it in the news. My gut reaction was “this is bad” and I still feel that way, especially with those prospects we got for an elite ace who was making only $9 million a year!! Just that thought makes me cringe. If you HAD to make a deal, at least get some prospects that are less of question marks and are closer to the big leagues –to fill the void the Halladay part of the deal left. Now we have even more super raw prospects who’ve never played in AA! Whoohoo!

    We blinked when we had a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I really hope that doesn’t come back and hurt us because it will be the type of thing that will never go away in our minds.

     
  • Posts: 0 Christian Michael

    Guys. Listen. It WAS about three Mariners prospects versus a late, late, 1st round pick and a sandwhich pick if Lee walked.

    It WAS about the money, but not about the 9 million Lee would be making during the 2010 season.

    Amaro and the Phillies work within a budget – just as all businesses do. By keeping Lee around for the 2010 season the Phillies would have had two big problems. 1.) Blanton would have been out of here. Not there is not any argument whatsoever regarding which pitcher is better. The thing is – take a look at the free agency market this past offseason and see which pitchers were hauling home contracts that paid them 10 or more million a year. That’s not even saying that the Phillies would have had the oppurtunity to sign two pitchers to replace Cliff Lee once he became a free agent. So instead of having a rotation of Halladay, Hamels and JA Happ as the ONLY solid starters, the Phils now have Halladay, Hamels, Blanton AND Happ for the next three years minimum. 2.) Lee needed to be traded when he did because of two words – COST CERTAINTY!. By trading Lee when he did Amaro was capable of LOCKING in (pretty much) what his payroll capabilities and budget would be in the following years. With Lee still on the team and the uncertainty regarding the Phils ability to resign him and ALSO sign a #3 or #4 starter Amaro is not able to extend Blanton for 3 years at a below market value. He is unable to extend Shane Victorino and Carlos Ruiz possibly. They also have Jayson Werth. And this is the key. By trading Lee and having the ability to look down the road at the money that IS or ISN’T available – Amaro can take a really good stab at maneuvering money and budget to allow for the resigning or exension of Jayson Werth.

    The cost certainty they received back in December was more important than Lee’s 9 million dollar salary in 2010, the two draft picks should he walk or the prospects they received.

    just my opinion.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Kyle Drabek games above A-Ball… 15
    Michael Taylor games above A-Ball… 116 in one season
    Travis D’Arnaud games above A-Ball… Zero

    Sure it was a lifetime opportunity but what after his contract runs out?

     
  • Posts: 0 Ben

    christian michael, i’d say it was just as important, otherwise great points.

     
  • Posts: 0 beta sigma shag

    I support the Lee trade, and when and why it was done. You do need a farm system, Blanton was going to get nothing in return. They offered Lee their best offer and he turned it down, that is how RAJ works, here is what we will pay you you don’t take then we look down the road. Lee only has his agent to blame if he is shocked he got traded. Also money does matter, I live in Vermont, and between Yankee fans and Red Sox fans most can not afford to go to a game in Boston or NY because the prices are crazy. It is cheaper for me to drive to PA for 8 to 10 games a year. I have the Sunday package. I could not afford to go to more than two games in cities that are closer. The idea is to stay competitive forever(I know that is unrealistic) but for the longest time possible. Do you want to be the Marlins or St. Louis, NY Boston, Angels, that compete every year for the playoffs and WS. Or a team that wins 2 WS in ten years and lose 90 games the other 8.
    I vote for playoffs every year.

     
  • Posts: 0 BS

    The Phillies have a stadium that is sold out nearly every night. Money should never be an option.

    Don’t take this personally Beerman, but the above was a dumb statement.

    There’s a limit to the number of seats. There’s a limit to the prices you can charge. Thus, there’s a limit to the money you can spend.

    Phillies attendance has gone up 16% over the past two years. Their payroll has gone up 40%. I used to knock Giles and co. for being stingy, rightly so. But now I’m giving credit where credit’s due.

     
  • Posts: 0 Philly Texan

    I agree with Dipsy. This was ONE TRADE. We dealt Lee, Drabek et al for Halladay, Aumont et al.

    And the Phillies are a better team after this deal b/c Halladay is a better pitcher in the regular season.

    Of course, Halladay can’t possibly improve on Lee’s postseason (though he might match it). But he will be more consistent in the regular season.

    I love Cliff Lee, but the guy has always been an extremely streaky pitcher. We saw that last year. He can be unhittable for a stretch and then give up 5 earned runs for three starts in a row. Halladay won’t do that.

    This trade was about improving the team for the regular year. It’s about getting back to the postseason and the World Series.

    And with that, I’m done with this subject for at least six months.

     
  • Posts: 0 beta sigma shag

    I know I will catch sht for this, but I said it at the time, Lee needs to be motivated to pitch well, after the trade he pitched 2 or 3 awsome games, then he had 3 bad starts in a row, I mean really bad starts where he got lit up. Then the playoffs and he was unhittable, with the exception of after the 6th in game five of the WS. Doc does not have that histroy of inconsistancy. I mean Lee was what 9-7 in argualble the worst division in baseball, because he was not focused and wanted out. Any chance the phillies saw this attitude before dealing him.

     
  • Posts: 0 Therealbeernan

    Honestly who cares give Bondo boy a break .I am the man who started Philliebeermantv so if you want to checkout my coverage from the 2009 World Series go to stickam.com/philliebeermantv

     
  • Posts: 0 RichieAllen

    I find it funny that anybody disagreeing with the Lee trade gets equated to the Santa Claus and Pope stuff.
    I also find it funny that anybody disagreeing is supposed to be a Philly hater and Halladay hater.
    Wow.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bruce

    “Beerman” made valid points and should be commended for doing so. Instead we have posters with criticism of the columnist that suggest that they are in a state of denial on possible repercussion of the Lee trade. Beerman asked a key question..” ..which year is more important right now, 2010 or 2014?” Considering the likelihood of losing key players to free agency in a few years, I choose 2010 with Holliday- Lee combo in rotation that send fears in the hearts of the opposition including the free spending Yankees. Plus if one were able to open the “books” of the $140 million payroll, I strongly suspect there are hoarded profits by the CEOs thanks to the river of revenue pouring in from all those sold out games, TV & radio networks, merchandise, etc. If the Phillies organization were to choose a different philosophy on spending (ala Yankees) in the coming years and make a commitment to reward and keeping their best players, the discussion on prospects here becomes moot.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Except to be able to keep your stars and throw your money around like your in a strip club you need role players on minimum salary… It’s how the Yankees have done it, buy big here and pay small everywhere else.

     
  • Posts: 0 Dave

    Great article. Who cares if it’s been discussed a million times? You are one of the few people who have asked the same question I’ve been asking: why do the trade on the same day? The ONLY reason is not one that was in the best interest of the team. It was the fan backlash. He could have gotten a WHOLE lot more if he waited. I really hope they need a pitcher at the deadline and Lee is the best available. You think we can get him back from Aumont, Gilles, and garbage? No chance. Amaro got fleeced.

     
  • Posts: 0 Dave

    BTW huge Halladay fan and a fan of every other offseason move. Reuben did good but its painful to give away Cliff Lee for nothing.

     
  • Posts: 0 Vernon Dozier

    There’s a limit to the number of seats that can be sold, but that hasn’t stopped the Phillies from looking at “creative” ways to bring in more money. I’ve ordered tickets for my department for the last six seasons. I annually order between 90-100 tickets (spread over 5-6 games). In the past, the Phillies have capped the processing fees for these types of orders at $30 + $5 shipping/handling. This season, they eliminated the $30 cap and tacked on the $4 fee to all 93 tickets that I ordered. A fee that was $35 last season became $377 this season.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    To ALL of those who say we could have got a better package for Lee if we’d waited get off your high horses and tell us how… From who?

    Yankees= No
    Red Sox= No
    Angels= No
    Dodgers= No cause their prospects are no better than Seattles
    Colorado= No
    Atlanta= No
    Mets= No
    Giants= No

    Who else?

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Oh Dave we should get a fan movement going to get RAJ fired and you sworn in as GM with “I really hope they need a pitcher at the deadline and Lee is the best available.”

    Phillies Nation- When you can come to discuss the Phillies with like minded fans, and also listen to the chorus of fans who might as well just admit they have a Mets jerseys on.

     
  • Posts: 0 Heather

    NJ-Why do you say all those teams wouldn’t give us a better package? I would think at least half of those teams you said NO about would be very interested in Cliff Lee for a year. Take, for example, Boston. The Sox would’ve been downright scary with Lee in the rotation in addition to all their other personnel. At that point, I think they would have become the favorites in the AL period. I think there is a chance they would have give up something decent to make that happen. Plus Boston has 4-5 prospects on the top 100 list depending on which list you check, so they had decent stuff to trade.

    Same thing with a lot of those other teams.

    I think Lee just wasn’t shopped to half of those teams….unless you have information to indicate otherwise?

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Red Sox didn’t make a real move on Halladay and have been very conservative in what prospects they make available in the last two years, Westmorland would have been about the total value of what we could have got and that guys got more arm issues than a teenage kid with a stack of porn.

    Angels weren’t prepared to give up top pitching prospects.

    The Yankees weren’t shopping.

    All of those teams are going to take a look at Lee at the deadline and in the off-season depending on their situations but their not going to give up a good package and then pay him a ton in the off-season.

    Aumont and Gillies are expected to be top prospects, hell with Ramirez we took 3 of Seattles top 6 or 7 prospects in one go. It was a much better deal than is given credit.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    ^I think there’s anger over the Halladay deal with fans seeing two top 50 prospects going to Toronto and expecting the same kind of deal in return when it was two different situations in baseball terms.

    All we did was take 3 higher upside prospects (two very high) quickly than one more developed prospect who’s name we could get a woody over and junk with it.

    I looked into Aumont with curiosity when Seattle drafted him, he is every bit the prospect to start falling in love with and Gillies is a steal.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    I had heard when this deal went down that Ramirez was the guy that HAD to be included. So much focus has been on Aumont and to soem extent Gillies….but the Ramirez thing is interesting.

     
  • Posts: 0 Ryan H

    I am disappointed that we couldn’t have Halladay and Lee as most of you are too. But I actually but Ruben’s argument of replenishing the system. Fans are short sighted, GM’s have to forecast for 4 and 5 years into the future. Gillies and Aumont are highly rated prospects. Beerman is simply poo pooing them in his assessment and that is unfair. They are just as highly rated as Drabek and Taylor are. I really don’t believe the Lee trade was about the money. Because if it was simply dollars and cents they would have just paid lee 9 million and not offered a tender to Blanton. They looked into trading blanton before the lee trade and realized they couldn’t get the right prospects in return, so they knew they had to trade lee or else let him walk at the end of the year. and don’t act like draft picks are the same as already established minor league prospects. they are 3 or 4 years ahead of where a draft pick next year would be in their progress towards the majors. plus, Draft picks in baseball aren’t nearly as reliable as in the NFL. high picks are busts routinely. then you have guys like ryan howard and pujols who were picked way way way down in the lower rounds.

    I see the trade as Lee for Halladay. and that is most certainly an upgrade.

     
  • Posts: 0 bfo_33

    I think there are valid issues with the Lee trade, and Beerman touched on a few, but mixed in too much speculation, and was very one sided in the opinion. Even Boston and the Yankees have a budget. They’d be a better team with Damon, but went with the cheaper option of Nick Johnson. Boston let Bay go. I also don’t think we are hearing the full story from Lee’s camp. What Lee understood may be very different from what Amaro heard from his camp (speculation on my part).

    At least two of the three guys we traded for Lee were MLB back-ups at best (I think Carrasco has a chance of being a middle rotation starter with the right pitching coach and some more time). That was with 1-1/2 yrs of a contract left. Why do you think he’d be worth more with only a year left? Maybe they could have gotten a little better deal if they waited, but it’s not like we would have gotten Jon Lester or Phil Hughes.

    I understand the disappointment, and am usually open minded to an intelligent argument – for or against moves made. Some sound like Rush Limbaugh – would rather have the administration fail to prove they were right than have a successful season.

     
 
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