Phillies Nation

Bravo, bravo, bravo! I agree completely.

I hate Smith. Always will. It’s one thing to have an attitude IF you have the talent to back it up. Smith is long on personality and short on journalistic acumen.

And Olney — whom I used to respect — acted very, very irresponsibly here. I don’t know his motivation for doing so, and I don’t want to speculate, but the end result is, he basically invented a story from nothing.

I’m a former journalist (not sports), and I always feared that the bloggers and Youtubers and Drudge Reports would erode the credibility of the “media” in general so badly that the average person would stop trusting their local newspapers. Well, all of the blogs I’ve read have taken Olney to task for his shoddy work here. So as it turns out, I was wrong. The bloggers and amateurs aren’t ruining credibility; they’re the ones with a conscience. The mainstreamers are doing it to themselves without any pressure from new media.

ESPN has turned me completely off to them. To me, they used to be perfect when it came to sports. Now, I simply do not read ESPN.com or watch the network unless they have a game I want to watch.
ESPN loves “the story”. In fact, it seems they are in the business of creating news. They’ve gotten out of the show highlights / talk sports business and into the breaking news business. It seemed to start with the OJ case when they hired their own lawyers and reporters and seemed to cover that story 24×7. Same with steroids in baseball. Same with everything Bonds, then Arod.
I am a sports fan and I still want to know about trade rumors, etc, but what I really want to hear about is a breakdown of the at bat between Jimmy Rollins and Jonathan Broxton. Something ESPN is incapable of doing and something the MLB Network routinely does.
What a shame ESPN has become. What a joke of a “network”

I didn’t know they had casinos in Detroit.

The Dipsy

I agree with a PP that I want to give Olney the benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps this was a planned leak from the Phils (for what reason, I don’t know.) It really doesn’t make much sense otherwise because the story is so unbelievable it does not pass the sniff test. In that respect, the comparison to Smith’s story doesn’t really fly because the Iverson story was believable. Iverson as a person is so very much disrespected one could pretty much write anything about him and not raise too many questions. This story, on the other hand, was SO outrageous it was immediately disbelieved. So either a) Olney was a moron who thought he could get away with it or b) the leak was planned by the Phils for some reason of their own.

But then if that was the case, that raises a sticky question, because at that point, Olney really isn’t anything more than an unpaid Phillies PR person.

good read!

Heather….

I never said that you said the Phillies “leaked the story on purpose” What I said was “Why would the Phillies plan to leak this story?”…..in response to your suggesting that “perhaps this was a planned leak from the Phils”…

If the Phillies were going to “shop” Howard ….. as you are suggesting by saying that the reason they would intentionally leak this was to “introduce Howard to other clubs without coming right out and openly dealing him”……

then they wouldn’t shop him by leaking some crazy story.

And, if you really believe that two weeks ago that the Philliies WOULDN’T have entertained trade offers for him….then you’re naive. Teams talk about this stuff ALL THE TIME…and I think more players that we realize as fans are not considered “untouchable”.

Teams would be totally irresponsible for not at least listening to what’s out there.

Manny, I was thinking the same thing. I was just on phillies.com reading about Domonic’s big day….and how it was compared to Hamels’ and Howard’s experiences as young “prospects”.

Hamels looks pretty good, huh??

Amen, Manny!

Let’s talk about the team we have, not pie-in-the-sky, nevergonnahappen trade.

Brown was sent to the minor league camp today, but that kid showed us something. He might be for real.

The Phils are having a great spring. Hamels looked good yesterday, and even showed he could bear down when things started to go a wrong with the error at first.

So far Hamels is sticking with the cutter. Good to see him pitch to contact yesterday instead of trying to strike everyone out. That will keep his pitch counts down.

And Lidge is apparently working on holding runners!

If Buster were a guy trying to make a name for himself I’d be more skeptical. But, this guy has been around awhile, and has been a top baseball writer. It just makes no sense for him to make up or even stretch the truth of this story. It’s his job to get stories out there that people want to read and talk about. While I agree his support was a little weak — it was just too shocking of a story not to publish. (i think that’s evident based on response) Are we suggesting he should have reported nothing? We’ll obviously never know who or what his source(s) are, but if nothing else, it gave us all something to write about for the past few days. Besides of the names being mentioned in this trade, there is nothing unusual about “team sources” or “a person familiar with the situation” being ground zero for any trade rumor.

Speaking of trades, I’ll take Stark over Olney any day, maybe just because I still detect the Phan in him when he writes about the Phils.

Not bad for a blogger. But you have to understand I work for ESPN and Disney and as a “real journalist” and I am under pressure to produce stories and when there is not much going on in baseball to report on sometime’s i have to stretch the truth. What you call unethical I call job security and when your making the $$$ Coin I do you ethics is low on the priority list.

You have to remember at the end of the day this is all just entertainment and if I have to stretch the truth to create some buzz and entertain then i’m doing my job.

Buster Out………

Domonic Brown reassigned… great spring for him. Something that he can build on heading into this season.

Unfortunately not much happening… i suggest going back to a favorite past time… ripping on the mets and mets fans..

How bad does that team suck this year. season hasnt even started and for most mets fans i talk to its already lost….

I do not believe this story is nonsense. Obviously it drew huge reaction. And I do not think it was reported ‘unethically’. It seems that Onley heard about it and then went for confirmation and reported the denial. What is wrong with that? It probably could have not been publicized as front page news though it would move to the top of ‘blogger/media’ world.
For those who think the trade is ridiculous since Pujols is so much better, since when are trades made purely on talent level? I would guess most trades are driven by money. Pujols should make much more than Howard. And in Free Agent land in 2 years they could essentially be ‘traded’ if Pujols signs with the Phillies and Howard with the Cardinals. No additional players need to change hands (swapping of some draft picks per MLB rules would occur.
For those who want to beat the dead horse go ahead. For those who had enough then read/listen/watch something else.
How about Rollins for Jeter?

“How about Rollins for Jeter?”

Sorry, but I would honestly never do that.

Even looking past the fact that Rollins is like 5 years younger than Jeter, you also have to consider the impact that Rollins has on this group of guys with the Phillies.

Jeter by most accounts is a hard-working and team first kinda guy, but I just don’t think he’d suit the Phillies as well as Rollins does.

THERE WAS NO “PLANNED LEAK” !!!!

THE PHILLIES DID NOT LEAK THIS FOR “REASONS OF THEIR OWN” !!!!

_______

Now let’s just freaking talk about mor important things…..like what’s going on in today’s game… 2-2 in the fifth. Blanton looking good

And check out those cool green uniforms!!

Thanks, Corey… and I agree with everyone that said it was a well written piece. I enjoy reading your posts (even when we don’t agree). You bring a different perspective that seems to be more “big picture.” Philadelphia sports (especially when it pertains to the Phillies) breeds polarization; it seems like everyone in this city is either rooting with blind faith or eagerly awaiting the demise of this team. The older generations are especially brutal on everything Phillies. The younger generation (myself included) wasn’t around to witness the collapse of 1964 or the many years of futility that sandwiched a few good years in the mid 60′s and early 80′s. We need someone that can bring us back to earth when we start floating away and those grumpy old men need someone that can tell them that this ain’t the Phillies of old. That person has to be “big picture” and I get the sense that you fill that void. For a “non-professional” writer, you’re not so bad.

The assessment of the “older generations” here is a generalization and basically complete nonsense, as are so many of these types of statements. There are many here who I’m sure witnessed the ’64 collapse, as well as the dead years of the late sixties/early seventies, and are praising the current team and its management just as much as anyone else.

Please refrain from denigrating older folks, who probably aren’t complaining any more than some of the youngsters. Sports in general are polarizing, but it has more to do with personal bias than with age. Saying the older generations are grumpy is like saying that women are compulsive shoppers or black people have natural rhythm. It’s way off base, and extremely insulting.

I’ve always been drawn to the big picture, and only found this site last season. Not nearly as knowledgeable as most here with regard to stats and goings-on in the minors and with other teams, I gain a lot more than I can offer, and have learned and continue to learn a lot. But the “larger picture” observations are the true kernels I take away with enjoyment the most, as in those regarding the media in Corey’s contributing article and Original Chuck P’s post.

Of course the larger picture as an analysis and synthesis of a major theme or topic is not the same as a generalization. No one should fall prey to generalization, which is why, for example, the term front-runner offends many long-term fans who have finally lately felt that wonderful intoxication of being at the top. I don’t think O. Chuck P meant to generalize about the POV of older vs. younger generations, but rather to offer an observation that does have a logical basis to some extent. Having endured those “many years of futility” as it was so aptly put, I know I may be more inclined to over-react when it comes to our window of opportunity for the opposite, and that certainly could be a contributing factor for some other older fans. But all else being equal, individual personality contributes as well; what looks like a porthole to some can look like a sliding-glass door to others.

What I love about Philliesnation is not only the intelligent debate and alternative perspectives, but those occasional big picture moments. Positivity and faith can be a lesson hard-learned when it comes to the Phils over the years, but even old dogs (no flames, just an expression!!) can learn new tricks. My visitation of this site unfortunately coincided with that occurrence which to which we may no longer refer, about which I had intended to make a one-time larger-picture post. Really. Not kidding.

Given the theme of this thread, in stepping back to look at the big picture in my participation here, I’m thinking a dose of faith for the skeptical can be a good thing. In this new season, I’d at the very least like to try to be more of a positive and well-informed contributor. So to that end: is there anyone out there who can recommend sites (other than mlbtraderumors, espn, etc) that are particularly useful or downright mandatory so that I can *constructively* criticize at worst and properly praise at best when appropriate?

And I offer a thanks to this site in general, because while it’s nice to have a place as a Phils fan to come to read and occasionally offer opinion, it’s unusual to have such a forum actually get you to re-examine your basic outlook (I’ll start with the Phils).

^ also, philsgirl, for baseball on TV…for news and opinion….if you have or can get MLB Network….it’s so much better than ESPN…in my opinion. It’s just baseball and it’s done in a very comprehensive and professional way. ESPN has become too sensationalized over the years….(although Peter Gammons is still one of my favorite analysts).

Chuck:

I’m sorry, but generalizations ARE insulting and DENIGRATING to people who only have one of the characteristics, such as age, and none of the rest. You are still calling older fans “jaded.” That would be no less an insult than calling a young person “immature.” Whether you mean it that way is beside the point; whether you think it’s not a denigrating remark is beside the point. It can be perceived as an insult, so it is.

So please think before you use terms such as “jaded,” “grumpy old men,” and “especially brutal” to describe the elderly. And please, talk to a few more fans before you make your “simple observations.”

George…

I think you are misunderstanding me. And I apologize if I have somehow INSULTED you. Obviously, I have hit some sort of raw nerve, which is ok….nothing wrong with having a few “raw nerves”

But I absolutely meant nothing by my comments. I was simply stating that Phillies fans from many, many years back endured A LOT of failure and heartache with this team…..and that’s PRE 1964. So 1964 comes along……and everyone thinks “This is it. We’ve got it wrapped up.”

Only to witness one of the worst collapses in sports history. So I can understand how some of those fans have felt since….and STILL feel. As I said….not everyone fits into that category. There are young people that feel this way too…..perhaps iy’s their birthright as Philadelphians….I don’t really know.

And….for the record….I never used the term “grumpy old men” or “especially brutal” to desribe the elderly….I DID say “jaded”…..but I really don’t think that’s an INSULTING term or that it even describes older people. But if you think so, I’m sorry for offending you.

George, lighten up! As one of the elder, more “jaded” people here, you’ve got to roll with the punches, so to speak. There are negative fans of all ages, but they are few and far between on here, it’s just that their constant criticizing of the team stands out more than other comments. Now my 88 year old dad, on the other hand, a former Phila A’s fan, then Phillies fan, is DEF a grumpy old curmudgeon when it comes to the current team. I don’t even like to talk baseball with him anymore, you’d think the Phils were residing in the bottom of the division for the last decade.

So, please don’t get angry with these young fans, they’re not trying to be mean, at least not yet! And there is a wealth of info and opinions on here, I have learned so much from this site…(of course, some stuff I didn’t NEED to know..) ;-)

Thanks, Chuck. I’ll have to check out baseballreference.com; usually I just Google for stats. I agree with your TV pick; MLB network’s commentary and coverage are much better than ESPN, plus I’ve learned a lot from and love Studio 42, the prime 9′s, and even diamond demos. The entire Ken Burns’ Baseball documentary over the holiday was awesome. And the Pen was a riot; but maybe the offseason stardom went to their head ala Cole?… JK.

Bob Costas is a fabulous interviewer, I love him. I don’t know if you saw the Willie Mays’ interview, but there were some rough spots, and he handled it really well. Too bad, my Willie Mays’ fan bubble was burst a bit, but I gain more respect for Costas with every interview of his I see.

To all concerned:

I have absolutely no problem with any statements concerning older fans, PROVIDED they are prefaced with Chuck P’s rather belated statement “my experience.” That takes the entire thing out of the realm of generalization.

It is easy to confuse Chuck and Original Chuck, but both statements contained the same sentiments and attitudes, if not the same exact words.

While I myself could not be insulted by the comments–my age is my own business, although I’ll go so far as to say I don’t consider myself old (Also I also don’t insult easily)–I do feel that others could be insulted. I will say that I ABSOLUTELY DETEST generalizations whether they regard race, religion, age, or fandom. No one wants to be lumped in a category with people he is dissimilar to. I also doubt that one can get an accurate picture of older fans by blogging 20-25 time a week. One can’t possibly know the age of a commenter unless he informs you of it, which many don’t.

All that having been said, any apologies TO ME are not necessary. I know that Chuck and Original Chuck are not trying to be mean. I do wish, though, that people would say something like “In my experience,” or “The fans I have dealt with,” before making blanket statements, and I will NOT lighten up anytime I see something as blatant as “older fans are particularly brutal,” without such a qualifier. I will NOT lighten up, either, if someone on here says “younger fans are spoiled and selfish,” without such a qualifier.