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Odds and Ends: Lee, Werth, Utley

Posted by Pat Gallen, Tue, July 06, 2010 11:14 AM | Comments: 69
Analysis, News, Odds And Ends, Opinion, Posts

-OK, so Cliff Lee wasn’t traded to Minnesota last night, as was reported by a Detroit radio station. Sounds like they may have been jumping the gun a bit, although that scenario wouldn’t be the worst thing ever for the Phillies. Should Lee be dealt elsewhere, why not have it be to a team like the Twins, keeping him away from the NL East, the NL Central, and teams like the Yankees or Red Sox?

People all over the Philly area are pining for a Lee Reunion Tour but it’s looking unlikely. The situation will be beaten like a dead horse over and again until the trade deadline, just be prepared for that.

-Jayson Werth has some trade value, that much we know. Would you trade him? He’d no doubt net a prospect or two and possibly a major league ready player in return. It would assure the Phillies get something for him before he hits free agency this offseason. Werth will command a pretty penny, and no one is sure the team can afford him.

I’d say it’s highly unlikely that he be dealt, although it would not surprised me in the least. Trading him will make the team younger and will create some flexibility with the payroll. On the other hand, the Phillies are in the middle of a heated race for the division. Getting rid of their only real right-handed power bat won’t fly.

-Chase Utley said yesterday that he wants to be back in six weeks, but don’t believe what he says. His timetable is eight weeks. We know Utley is a quick healer and will do whatever he can to get back out on the field. Realistically, that’s not happenening.

Which leads to possible trade scenarios for the Phils. Do they need a middle infielder to compensate for the loss, or is Valdez enough? Who would you take a run after: Ty Wigginton, Jose Lopez, or another multi-position player? I think Lopez can be had relatively cheap and can play three infield positions if needed. He also brings some pop, plus, maybe the Mariners will feel bad for fleecing the Phils in the Lee deal, thus giving up Lopez for close to free.

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About Pat Gallen

Pat Gallen has written 1674 articles on Phillies Nation.

Pat is Editor-in-Chief of Phillies Nation. He also covers the Phils for 97.5 FM in Philly.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    1. Lee is never coming back;
    2. Werth is not gonna be re-signed so I would trade him if I could get value for him;
    3. Ty Wigginton would be a good guy to take a shot at and then move him into left when Chase comes back;
    4. Brad Lidge is over and our bullpen is in horrible shape. I know that Doc likes to finish his games but it would be nice if Charlie could send a guy in there to nail down the ninth some day when Roy only has eight innings in his arm.

    The Dipsy

     
  • [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Phillies Buzz, iPhillySports. iPhillySports said: Odds and Ends: Lee, Werth, Utley: -OK, so Cliff Lee wasn’t traded to Minnesota last night, as was rep… http://bit.ly/9Ui4UB #phillysports [...]

     
  • Posts: 0 Manny

    DO NOT TRADE WERTH.

    Are you effin kidding me? I don’t care how injured our team is… we’re 4 games behind the Braves. We’re contenders. Trading Werth would be the equivalent of giving up on the season. We got Roy Halladay, Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rollins, Cole Hamels, Shane Victorino, Placido Polanco (matter of weeks), Carlos Ruiz (back soon), Happ (back soon, should be an upgrade over Kendrick when he comes back), Madson (rested and reloaded)…these guys are winners. In a matter of weeks, our only guy in the DL will be Utley… a big loss but we can now expect him to kick a$$ in September.

    Plus, lets not forget that Werth will be Type A free agent and he’ll net us a solid draft pick anyway if we lose him after this season. Estimated value of that is over 5 million bucks, according to Fangraphs.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Dipsy…

    Halladay was DEALING last night…..and……only had like 88 pitches entering the 9th.

    No way he doesn’t pitch the ninth inning.

     
  • Posts: 0 BART SHART

    Jose Lopez is one of the best utility players in baseball , when you consider his overall career hitting and he is only 27 years old. I do not think the Mariners would do anything kind in dealing with any other team, even the Phillies. The Phils will have to pay dearly for Lopez.

    Overall, I agree with The Dipsy’s assessment of the situation. Wigginton is probably the best and most reasonable bet for the Phils to go after.

    Respectfully

    Your BART SHART

    PS: MLB Trade Rumors say that the Phils are interested in The D’Backs’
    Dan Haren.

     
  • Posts: 0 knowsall

    IF they lose the next 2 v Atlanta( And I’d bet big money they will) and lose 3 of 4 v Reds( I’d bet on that too,) they’d be about 8 out at the AS break.

    At that point the Phillies might lean toward becoming sellers and dump
    Werth.

     
  • Posts: 0 Evan

    Trading Werth is a terrible idea unless the Phils tank before the trading deadline. Dom Brown can’t possible contribute at the same level of Werth in the majors this season, he’s not Jason Heyward. Werth is a big part of what makes the team good now, so if the Phils want to compete this year he should not be traded away. Trading away top players before the deadline isn’t something a team in contention should do, especially since the Phils can’t replace Werth’s talent in RF with whoever they get in return.

    Also, Werth is going to be a Type A free agent when the season ends. That means the Phils will get a first round draft pick (or top pick) from whoever signs him and a supplemental pick. That needs to be considered when you think about his value. The farm system could use an extra first rounder.

     
  • Posts: 0 Evan

    Manny said it all and he said it first

     
  • Posts: 0 Lefty

    Sorry Pat, you run a great site and I’m sure you meant that toungue in cheek, but I’ve got to call you on this one. Because people don’t fleece others so much, as suckers get fleeced.

    I’m quite certain that the Mariners feel pretty good about how they got Lee, and they’re about to get back two or three prospects for Cliff that are likely better than they gave up.

    And since Cholly likes Omar Infante so much, why not him? I’m sure the Braves would be interested in fleecing RAJ too.

     
  • Posts: 0 Richie

    Okay folks, what is so wrong with riding out the Valdez train? He is hitting better than Jose Lopez has all year. I know what he hits on his career, but he has not had this chance to play before. Not to mention the guy is in my opinion as good or better with the glove than jimmy and has an absolute hose of an arm. I’d trade Werth tomorrow to the red sox who are dealing with more injuries than us and are desperate in the outfield. We could possibly get one of their blue chip prospects and they are one of the only teams that will give up a lot for him because they know they can sign him to a long term deal and have a huge need. My other thing is I think Ben Francisco can play everyday and I am okay with a 2011 outfield of Vic, Brown and Francisco.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    Manny – See the phrase “if I could get value for him”. For instance, psujoe envisioned a scenario, maybe you saw it, where he suggested a three way deal involving us, Boston and Toronto, where we end up with Bautista and Downs, the Jays get prospects from Boston, and Boston gets Werth. I would go for something LIKE that. Not a dump deal for strictly prospects. I apologize myself if I didn’t make myself clearer.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 therookie300

    What about making a play for Kelly Johnson? I know he’s cooled off since April, but He’s got some pop in the bat and should come cheap. It’s at least another option.

     
  • Posts: 0 bfo_33

    I agree in theory to trading Werth just before the All-Star break if the Phils are out, but I have no idea how many games that is. The Phils, Mets, and Braves have tremendous talent, and a ton of holes. Any one of those teams could have a 10 game lead on July 30th, and still come in 3rd. The Phils have a track record of playing great 2nd half ball, I wouldn’t bet against them, and can’t think of a reasonable scenario where they should trade Werth (Doc and Hamels go down?). I’ve spent too many years thinking that not coming in last place was a moral victory for this team, would like to see them make the playoffs again this year. Best chance of that is with Werth.

    I see no reason to waste even a borderline prospect on a starting pitching – our starters are not the problem. Madson will be back soon, and when Happ comes back, either he or KK can go to the pen. Wouldn’t be against picking up another cheap arm if available, but wouldn’t waste a potential prospect.

    I’m ok with Valdez playing 4-5 days/week, the problem is that we don’t know when PP is coming back, or whether he’ll be able to play more than 2 games in a row. Also, it’d be nice to give Rollins a rest here and there. See what happens with Dobbs/Ransom/Castro, go from there.

    Sometimes the best moves are the ones not made – I’d rather see RAJ make no moves than a panic move.

     
  • [...] Odds and Ends: Lee, Werth, Utley | Phillies Nation [...]

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    If your RAJ you know your team are second half performers and the team has many of its core contributors expected to come off the DL in the coming weeks. We don’t need to trade for a star player because this roster is full of them, we need the production from them down the stretch or it won’t matter because the Yanks big money stars didn’t win them the championship last year, it was the role players that put the Phillies on the ropes.

    RAJ certainly may have overpaid in money or years for a few of his acquisitions but the Phils go into next year with the roster virtually unchanged and the same goes for the next year. This isn’t the NFL where you can overhaul a roster or the NBA where you can add stars virtually willy nilly each year.

    I’d like to see us add a cheap bullpen arm, expensive would be silly considering the failures of recent late season deals like Gagne, Sherril, Marte. I want a .300 type hitter coming off the bench not a hit or miss guy like Bautista but I could see the value in a package deal with Toronto.

    It may look like Brown is our only prospect but I get really excited by the overlooked names in A ball who could come up and contribute in a couple of years time since I genuinely believe we don’t have a ‘window’ because I really think the front office has built something sustainable for this and the next generation of Phillies.

     
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    Happ’s line the other night concerns me. 5.1 innings 6 hits and 4 bbs with only 1 KO. He may need more time.

    D. Brown goes yard for the 4th time in 7 games. Man, I’d love to see him in the bigs. Offensively he’s ready.

    I’d take Wiggington or Bautista.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    Doesn’t Bautista have 20 homers?

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 Phan in the outfield

    Trading him will make the team YOUNGER? He’s 31. I’ve read a number of reasons to trade Jayson Werth (only one or two have I agreed with) but that’s just….

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Anyone else ridiculously impressed that our team has the identical record THIS YEAR as we did the past two seasons to this point

    With all the injuries we’ve had, that’s amazing to me …

    I can’t see the Phillies adding any big-name arm, because they got rid of all of their non-Domonic Brown prospects already, and they can’t afford to trade Brown. (the only way that happens is a Victorino deal)

    But really I think the Phillies ride with what they’ve got until the final hours, if they’re 10-games back , Werth becomes fair game …

    You have no idea what Utley will contribute if/when he makes it back this season..

    I think Wigginton is obviously the best overall fit .. he could play 2b-3b .. is a nice hitter almost anywhere in the lineup, and would be a great bench player if Utley and Polanco come back healthy

     
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    21 hrs and 50 bbs so he gets on base as well(.360 OBP). He’s played 30 games at 3b this year so you could slide Polanco over to 2b when he gets back. Plays OF and 1b as well so he’s an excellent stick when everyone gets healthy. Hottest player would play. Sure would help the Phils DH situation when they make it back for 3 in a row.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Bautista has 20 dingers and an average which has barely 5 pts gone either side of .230

    He should have not been selected an all-star

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    The thing is you can’t predict how a player who’d played 70-80 games will adjust to making 1/2 starts a week. It would be great to add two guys to the bench who have double-digit homers in the first half, but you can be damned sure they won’t do it in the second, or if they do it’ll be with an average hovering around .200 a la Edwin E

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Bautista sucks he’s a .240 career hitter …already passed his previous carerr-high HR total , and is 9 away from his RBI total

    He swings hard, misses often … would not be a good fit for this lineup

    He’s having a nice year right now because, like the Diamondbacks players, Bautista can swing-away every at-bat, since they have nothing to play for except the back of their baseball cards

     
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    NJ,

    love some of the arms down at the A levels. Could be some good ones down the road. It’s a darn shame Gillies got hurt because he was hitting .325 his last 10 games and playing above his age at AA. Rizzotto keeps making people take notice. Still hitting a cool .366 at Reading with an OPS over 1.000 with 175 Abs. If he can have back to back seasons like that he’d be a decent chip. How about Joel Naughton finally hitting well. Some good stuff in the minors.

     
  • Posts: 0 mary

    they do have the same record now as they did at this point last season…just goes to show how streaky this team is and show they have to heart and play hard when they wanna play hard…they lose these next 2 games against the braves and prolly lose 2 of 3 or get swept by the reds that the way the 2010 phillies have gone…they better plan on hitting like a 10 game winning steak or something soon or they’ll be out of this thing soon…btw lee won’t be coming back it’ll cost to much to give up so we better hope the twins step up and trade for him soon,but my gut tells me he’s gonna be a met.

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    I hope the Mets trade all their prospects for him, still miss the Playoffs, and then he signs with the Yankees in the offseason

     
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    It’s put up time for Cole tonight. Huge game. A win gaurentees the series with an opportunity to sweep. Come on Cole.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    psujoe-

    I LOVE the pitching in the farm, the stats aren’t some sexy and people will trash Aumont to the point of slurring his name as they do it… But we have some legit power arms as well as a plethora of guys who are going to be major leaguers as starter and relievers. No-one wants the next Maholm or Duke as a prospect over like a Cueto or Gallardo but if your a team like the Phillies paying big money to veterans then you need the majority of your prospects to be just damn good ballplayers. A guy who really intrigues me is Freddy Galvis, if Escobar and Starlin Castro’s bat doesn’t matter too much than Galvis could be a real player with the next wave of kids like Gose and Gillies.

     
  • Posts: 0 The Original Chuck P

    Cliff Lee is a long shot… that would be a tough pill for Amaro to swallow (admitting defeat). I would not be upset if we went could work out a cheap rental but the chances of that happening are between slim and none. On one hand, the Mariners aren’t going anywhere so the deal wasn’t great for them… on the other, it hasn’t really benefitted us, either so I’m not sure RAJ is ready to get back in bed with those guys.

    Trading Werth is something that has to be considered if we’re out of it or if we feel like we can get something that we desperately need in return… we’re not out of it. Can we get Dan Haren (trading Werth for prospects)? If that’s a possibility, I’m in the camp that believes we have to consider it… Dom Brown could come up and give us a spark. He could come up and give us something. I look at it as the Phillies + Dan Haren + Dom Brown > Phillies + Werth + (insert name of odd man out in starting rotation).

    I’m absolutely against trading for a utility man… why? So we can end up with another Geoff Jenkins? Valdez is doing just fine. Castro and Dobbs can battle for regular playing time. I would rather not be handcuffed in the future by signing an overpriced bench bat for the next few weeks. If we can’t get by with what we’ve got, it’s unlikely that adding a utility man is going to get us over the hump.

     
  • Posts: 0 mary

    dan haren wouldn’t be bad,but they will want prospects instead of werth their in rebuilding mode and a guy like werth would be useless for a few months because they won’t resign him…it would have to involve a 3rd team with werth going to the 3rd team..

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    I think the point is that if you trade for someone on the Orioles, they’d be happy just to get some salary relief since they aren’t going to win anything anyway ..

    so to get a Ty Wigginton and have him as an option over Greg Dobbs would be pretty nice (and I’m not a Dobbs’ hater)


    The Phillies can’t get Lee without trading Brown .. and they aren’t trading Brown..

    so I really think its time to put the Lee-trade out of our heads, its just not gonna happen

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    I am “ridiculously impressed” with the Phillies’ identical record to last year at this point in the season.

    But….I would imagine that 99% of the people on here aren’t…..because most are ready to declare the season over.

    Here’s the difference to last year, though. The Mets and Braves are BETTER than last year. If I remember correctly, the Phillies, last year when they had a rough June, NEVER surrendered first place (I think the worst was a tie for 1st at one point).

    The Phillies really need to step it up in the second half. I don’t know if going 51-30 is even enough. That’s 94 wins. Thoughts, guys??

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Exactly Chuck- the thing I would say is the Braves and Mets aren’t 95 win teams and you’d think 91-92 would really be their record. The Phils are going to lose games but they have to stop throwing away games like the 1st and 3rd of the Bucs series. It almost seems like in many games the Bats either stop hitting when the bullpen comes in or will only start hitting from behind when the set-up guys get the ball… It’s very odd

     
  • Posts: 0 mark

    Chuck, the reason I am pessimistic is that the Phillies biggest competitive advantages over the other teams don’t exist this year.

    1) Home runs- They have gone from the best to one of the worst.The only 2 deep threats in the lineup are Werth and Howard and they are very mild threats.

    2) Running game- it’s non-existent.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Original Chuck…

    I agree….sort of with your feelings about NOT trading for another utility guy. The ONLY one that kind of impresses me in Wigginton. He has power and can play different positions. That would give Charlie some flexibility….and give the bench more offense. I don’t know????????

    If Valdez wasn’t so impressive with his glove….and his bat as of late…I think I would be more aggreable to the idea.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    I have a feeling the home runs will increase in the second half. We haven’t seen Howard go on a tear yet…..and that WILL come.

    Same with Werth.

    I still think that between both guys we’re still looking at 65-70 hr by the end of the season. Right now they have 28 combined.

    Running game…yeah….Rollins won’t try as much because of his injuries….

    That really leaves Werth and Vic to attempt a more aggresive approach on the basepaths. Maybe Valdez, too???

     
  • Posts: 0 NickFromGermantown

    At this point, a move needs to be made. I think in the ideal situation, you send Ibanez and Werth off, who are replaced by Francisco and Brown, then bring in Lee. Hopefully you could get your utility guy for Ibanez and then whoever you get for Werth goes for Lee. That way you get a net effect of 0 to the farm. Can this happen? I don’t know, but I think it would be great if we could.

    As for “giving up on the season”, I think there is something to be said for actually playing for the future. If you can get something real for Werth, that’s a lot better than a draft pick at the end of the season. There are savvy moves that can be made that allow us to win now, but also not totally mortgage the future. Trading anything but some of our underperformers would be a huge mistake. If we are going to go for broke, at least get Cliff Lee. He would be a difference maker.

     
  • Posts: 0 mark

    And right now, the #1 guy KILLING this team is Rollins.
    It’s like having a pitcher in the leadoff spot. Big ohfers( 4-5..never walks) consistently .

    I think he’s batting below .200 since his return.

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    Ben Fran has shown absolutely so signs of being a 5/600 outfielder, really like the kid but he’s a Jason Michaels type. Are you really going to be a better team throwing Brown into the thick of a pennant race having to replace one of the best outfielders currently in the game?

    Cliff Lee is incredibly unlikely to win a ring this year, it’s still far from a NBA style put it together for 1 year championship if the Phillies had kept him and he is going to be as much value to the buying team as CC was with the Brewers, cost A LOT and you get back virtually nothing for a few days of October-ball.

     
  • Posts: 0 George

    Victorino currently has seventeen steals and has only been caught twice, even though he’s been on base less. This is pretty much his normal pace. He’s not the speed problem. We all know why Rollins isn’t stealing, but Werth should certainly be doing more running.

    Lee would not be a difference maker considering how the team has hit so far. Even an ace can’t win without some runs to back him up. Werth is streaky, but that doesn’t mean he won’t hit. The team shouldn’t think of trading him unless the season gets hopeless, which it hasn’t yet. It would be hopeless with Brown and Francisco as regulars, even if Cliff Lee pitched three times a week. Besides which, no one would even give up a utility player for Ibanez, given his salary, so only Brown OR Francisco could play all the time.

    My own feeling is that the Phils should wait to do anything until after the All Star game, when they’ll have a better idea of their chances and their needs.

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    With Howard hitting more singles than ever before … maybe that explains why Werth isn’t able to steal 2nd as often

    its like When Victorino had a big year of doubles-triples last year, his steals went down …

    Werth has Howard on base a lot more often, so when he reaches too, its not with an open bag in front of him

     
  • Posts: 0 The Original Chuck P

    I guess I wouldn’t mind Wigginton as a bench guy but he is under contract for next season, too ($3 million) and if that is going to handcuff our chances of doing something big in the offseason, I’m not a fan. Ty started the season on fire but has really cooled off (hitting .251). I think that we have had as much success bringing up guys as we have had signing every day role players (bench guys). I guess it might not hurt to bring in a Ty Wigginton but not if it costs us anything more than a so-so prospect/cash.

    Cliff Lee won’t cost Dom Brown but he will cost more than we’re willing to spend in prospects. Ted Lilly might be a good buy low candidate… a better version of Joe Blanton and he’s a free agent after this season so it would be a rental. The only reason I’m somewhat infatuated with Dan Haren is because he’s having an off year by his standards (buy low) and his contract is reasonable for an elite pitcher (good deal)… it would make sense to make a run at him.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    “Even an ace ca’t win without some runs to back him up”

    That’s why Roy Halladay would be something like 14-3 if he had run support in some of his games.

    SEVEN complete games!!!! Are you KIDDING me!!!???!!!

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Cliff Lee is already on the Twins roster, written in pencil … they’ll make a match real soon, and the deal will become official

    The Mariners want a CATCHER … Yankees aren’t going to trade Montero, because they need to have a replacement for Posada, who already acts like a DH

    The Twins have Mauer for the next 8-9 seasons, so it makes sense..


    A week ago I made the point that Haren isn’t nearly as good in the 2nd half

    and I checked the stats now:
    Career:
    Pre All-Star = 3.29 ERA, 1.10 WHIP, .234 Batting avg against
    POST All-Star = 4.21 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, .277 Batting avg against

    so he’s an All-Star and Cy Young candidate every year before the break, and then he becomes Brett Myers

     
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    I guess we can talk all we want about offense and such but even if we did have the O, we have absolutely no bullpen and no closer. Its is my guess, and I hope I’m wrong, that Lidge will be supplanted by Madson (again) by Aug 1. Lidge has lost his fastball. That nice little “get over” slider is a nice pitch, but its getting to the point where he’s starting too many hitters off with it, I suspect because he doesn’t wanna go to the fastball. Brad doesn’t throw hard enough anymore to get away with anything but pinpoint placement on his fastball. His outpitch is still nasty though.

    So Cole wants to be a big time pitcher, huh? Well lets see it tonite big boy because we need it bad. Jurrjens will leave early as I think he might be on a pitch count. Need a shut out, Cole. God help me if I see Cole throws a snit because someone boots a ball and then he start hanging his head in the middle of a tight game.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 NJ

    The Yankees aren’t going to trade for Lee because Vasquez has picked his game up behind CC, Burnett, Hughes, Pettitte and they can have him for the price of a 2nd round draft pick in free agency as their 1st is likely to be compensation elsewhere.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bruce

    “FOXSports is reporting that the team is considering trading Werth if it can’t perform well in these two series (Braves & Reds). If the Phils show that they can bring it, FOXSports sources say the team has already looked into getting Ty Wigginton or Miguel Tejada from the Baltimore Orioles. The site also reports that the team will pursue two big-name pitchers: Seattle Mariners lefthander Cliff Lee and Arizona Diamondbacks right-hander Dan Haren”.

    I’m all for trading Werth if it can swing a deal for any of those names mentioned including Lee. ;-)

     
  • Posts: 0 The Original Chuck P

    I wouldn’t put any creedence into Haren’s second half stats… remember, he plays for the D-Backs who are out of it by the all-star break every season. I think that the guy would thrive on a competitive team…

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    those are for his career … Haren is MUCH better in the 1st … he puts up all-star numbers, and then every single year, he falls apart as the year goes on

     
  • Posts: 0 The Original Chuck P

    It’s tough to hold Dom Brown back and if trading Werth can land the necessary prospects to obtain Dan Haren, you have consider it.

     
 
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