Phillies Trade Deadline Thread: July 22

Posted by Pat Gallen, Thu, July 22, 2010 09:10 AM | Comments: 115
Analysis, News, Posts

8:35 am: This morning on ESPN Radio, Tim Kurkjian talked about the ongoing Roy Oswalt chatter. Kurkjian stated that the Cardinals are talking about Oswalt, because, why wouldn’t they. A top-three of Carpenter, Wainwright, and Oswalt would be virtually unbeatable in the playoffs. However, he sees a Cards/Oswalt union as unlikely because of his contract. Kurkjian believes they have to leave some money available for when Albert Pujols is ready to sign on the dotted line again.

As for the Phillies, he wonders if they, too, can get a deal done because of the finances involved. But the ESPN Insider says Oswalt might have to give up his demands to have his 2012 option picked up before a trade is finalized, if he wants to go to a contending club. Oswalt is owed roughly $6 million this season and $16 million next year before the option year comes into play.

-Late last night, Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com said that the Phillies could go without adding a pitcher altogether if they cannot grab a top arm like Oswalt or Dan Haren. Haren is an interesting case. He would cost slightly more than Oswalt as far as prospects are concerned, but his contract is friendlier. He is owed the remainder of his $8.25 million salary this season and $12.5 million in both 2011 and 2012. He has a $15 million option for 2013 or a $3.5 million buyout. There have been indications that the Phils will stretch the budget for the “right” pitcher, per Salisbury.

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  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Right …the same logic as the Phillies having both Howard and Oswalt….and Pujols will command MORE $$.

  • Posts: 0 Philly Texan

    The recent quest to get Oswalt makes the Lee trade look very interesting.

    Why exactly did we trade Lee?

    Was it for prospects? Well, we’re looking to trade prospects for starting pitching now.

    Was it about money? Doesn’t seem like it, since the Phils seem willing to add Oswalt’s $16 million per year or whatever it is.

    Makes me wonder if it wasn’t personal….like the Phillies were insulted that Lee shot down their contact offer and promptly shipped him out of town. If Amaro let personal feelings get involved, then that’s unforgivable.

    Maybe it was bout prospects. I dunno.

    But their pursuit of Oswalt and his huge contract puts a lie to the claim that the Phils were too cheap to keep Lee. (unless they’re just desperate now).

  • Posts: 0 Publius

    Carlos Lee is one of the worst 5 players in the bigs now, going by WAR. He’s actually worse, more expensive and a longer commitment than Raul.

  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    I like that Carlos Lee/Raul Ibanez idea. Would the Astros do that????

  • Posts: 0 Nick.F

    No matter what they do or don’t do via trades, this team does not have the look of a winner this year. It is VERY hard to do what they are trying to do (i.e., get to three World Series in a row). Sometimes in baseball, things just don’t go your way, and all the Cliff Lee’s in the world ain’t gonna change that. It’s a funny game, this baseball.

  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    Who cares what the reason was. Cliff Lee is gone. Time to move on, guys. Seriously.

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    I know that Lee sucks.. but paying him $13 M plus $400,000 would be better for both our PURSE, and our LINEUP than having Ibanez at $12 M and Werth at $?? aka Brown at $400,000 and have an entirely left-handed lineup

    Who are the BEST players going by WAR ?

    If its anyone other than Josh Hamilton, Miguel Cabrera, Josh Johnson, etc… then I dont want to hear it

  • Posts: 0 Philly Texan

    Forget Carlos Lee. He’s a 34-yr-old outfielder who’s numbers are declining. He’s hitting .236 this year, which last time I checked is WORSE than Ibanez.

    If we lose Werth (by trade or FA) we can find a RH bat in the offseason that will give us better production for a lot less money than Carlos Lee.

  • Posts: 0 Pickles Rarnt

    Fausto Carmona and Jhonny Peralta….remember those names. Don’t be a bit surprised to see them in Phillies uniforms.

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    I think I read yesterday that Vernon Wells is still due like $86 Million over the next 4 years !!!???

    that’s WAY over budget, but I think the only way to get rid of Ibanez would be to trade him to a team looking to escape a lengthy contract (Carlos Lee, Vernon Wells, etc..) … to get a Right bat playing LF, and having Brown in RF is the ideal situation ..

    I really would look into Francouer …. or crazy, but Magglio Ordonez is due to make big money next year and the Tigers are always looking to dump salary

  • Posts: 0 Publius

    Don M. –

    Carlos Lee is a worse option than Raul Ibanez. Let that sink in. He’s a worse player on a worse contract. It would be a massive hole in our lineup, an unmitigated disaster defensively, and would be under our control for longer and thus another eaten roster spot.

    In short, let it go. A bad LHB is better than a travesty of an RHB.

    Also, MLB leaders in WAR are Justin Morneau, Josh Hamilton, Carl Crawford, Matt Holliday and Robinson Cano for hitters, and Josh Johnson, Roy Halladay and Francisco Liriano for pitchers.

    So I guess you do want to hear it.

  • Posts: 0 Philly Texan

    I think the reason for the Cliff Lee trade is important.

    Look, I’m not one of these guys who thinks Lee would have solved our problems. He can’t hit, after all. We may have won 2-3 more games, but that’s it.

    I’ve refused to discuss Cliff Lee all season. I have moved on. But the Phils desperate quest for starting pitching at the deadline makes the Lee trade very relevant again. Why exactly was he traded. What motivated someone to trade a top 10 pitcher, then six months later go on a quest for another top-10 pitcher. Very strange maneuvering.

    The reasons behind the Lee trade tell us a lot about the Phils FO and what they may do in the future. I’m not pining for Lee. It’s over. He’s gone.

    But understanding WHY he was traded—when we would end up needing pitching—is very relevant.

  • Posts: 0 Bruce

    With the Phillies’ record at 48-46 and trailing the Braves by 7 games and no indication of changing course, I wonder if GM Amaro is having second thoughts and reevaluating his priorities regarding the trade deadline. Is it worth the probability of losing more prospects and covering a costly contract of Oswalt or Haren? As a few here suggested, this season may be a lost cause and should focus on 2011. There are “stories” indicating that Phillies management reportedly balked at Oswalt’s demand to have his option included and it would suggests GM Amaro is less inclined now to make a move (in light of the team’s standing in the division). I do think Amaro wants a “salary dump” with Werth and hopes to get something in return that would help the team next year.

  • Posts: 0 therookie300

    Beanzalo said it best. Before the season started this was best team that was fielded in the last four years. Nobody could’ve predicted it would’ve went awry like it has. Amaro can only do so much. He can’t prevent injuries or hit the ball for them. At least he’s actively trying to do something to benefit the team instead of just sitting around. And remember Amaro’s got a budget to follow. He doesn’t set it, it is set for him. It’s his job to somehow make the best team out of available budget funds. He’s made mistakes, but what GM doesn’t…

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    I DO want to hear it …. someone had said earlier this year that according to WAR, Ryan Howard was like the 8th best NL firstbaseman ?? ….which made me think the rankings were terrible.

    Carlos Lee is a career .288 hitter … is he injured this year? The product of being in one of the league’s worst lineups?

    Obviously he’s not the solution to all life’s problems, but I wouldn’t put all my stock in the fact that his average is down this year… I just dont think you can move Ibanez otherwise, and I think that adding another Lefty, to this current lineup will handucff us

    (again, unless maybe Rollins bats 5th??)

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Publius .. got a link for the WAR rankings?

  • Posts: 0 Lefty

    Trade Cholly for a little league manager who knows when to pinch hit for his pitcher who has a 1 in 10 chance of putting a ball in play, and has proven over and over again that he will implode on the mound after the 7th inning. Throw in RAJ for a hot dog vendor.

  • Posts: 0 The Second John

    Justin Mourneau has the best WAR in baseball. Josh Hamilton is second.


  • Posts: 0 Shawanna Heidt

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  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    Apparently, Jimmy can’t bat anywhere right now. Don M. – WAR is useful for some things but comes up woefully short for others.

    RE: Lee. If were are looking at reasons, RAJ chose Halladay and rightfully so. Then he is looking at a real good – good enough to win the pennant – rotation. Keeping Lee would have been awesome but without him we were gonna be fine. Thats what they thought, that what I thought, its probably what most of us thought. RAJ has to answer to owners who gotta hold down the bottom line beacuse that what owners do. They wouldn’t let him keep both Lee and Halladay so what was he supposed to do? Not trade for Halladay? Forget it.

    This team as constructed at the beginning of the season was one we were all excited about. Then EVERYONE got hurt or played like shit. I hate to say it but sometimes it just works out like that. So now Ruben has to scramble to fill holes for reasons that were not of his making. He’s not to blame.

    Fans. BAD SEASON. And everyone shares the blame in equal proportion, in my view.

    The Dipsy

  • Posts: 0 NickFromGermantown

    No offense to the guys that run this site, but I have to say that Phillies Nation is becoming more unreliable than Danys Baez. Get the server fixed or more powerful already!

  • Posts: 0 Bob

    So now people don’t want to trade for Oswalt because of a 16 million dollar option in 2012? But some of the same would be happy to hand over 20 million a year for Cliff Lee?

    Biggest difference is that Oswalt would be in Phils control through AT LEAST next season and then probably 2012.

    2.5 seasons of Oswalt > 1 underachieving (so far) season with Cliff Lee.

    Oswalt is not the end all be all of the teams problems but maybe it would be a jolt.

    That all said i dont think it’s gonna be a blockbuster. Probably a Sheets and a trade of Werth for a reliever/bat (I hope if they do indeed move Werth)

    Something needs to be done and it will be. Just waiting to see what it is.

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    JUST when I thought maybe these WAR rankings were onto something ..

    I saw that Andres Torres on the giants is ranked ahead of Chase Utley, both of whom are ranked ahead of Ryan Howard

    Torres is hitting .274, 8 HRs, 34 RBI, 49 Runs, 17 Steals
    Utley .277, 11 HRs, 37 RBI, 49 Runs, 5 Steals (okay I can see this one)

    Howard is hitting .299, 22 HRs, 75 RBI, 61 Runs

  • Posts: 0 Philly Texan

    If Carlos Lee were 27, I’d be inclined to ignore his numbers this years.

    But when a heavy-set 34-year-old has a drop off like that, I tend to think his best days are long behind him and he’s soon to be retired.

    If we want a slightly overpaid, aging RH bat, how about Mike Lowell?

  • Posts: 0 Chris.I

    I wouldn’t mind having Elsbury over Upton, but in all honesty I’d rather deal with the Rays for either Davis, or Shields for Werth (Though I know they wont deal Davis). Its the only trade that sounds reasonable, and would benefit both teams. I just don’t think we really need another OF when we have Brown.

  • Posts: 0 Geoff

    Ok its time to weight in. Leave the Cliff Lee stuff alone. The mere fact that RAJ is going after a frontline pitcher IS an admission that it was a mistake.

    Now, I am not impressed by Haren, he would be our third best starter because he is NOT better than Cole Hamels, not even close.

    Pretty much we have to hope Oswalt changes his mind and decides to come here. If he does it would be Happ & prospects. What other starters are openly available anyway this year aside from those two?
    And no, I do not think Brett Myers would really want to come back given the fact that they put him on the pay no mind list after his return from injury.

    I would send Werth to the Rays for Wade Davis, because clearly the Rays would not trade away BJ Upton, would they? Could they be that insane? I dobt it.

  • Posts: 0 Philly Texan

    Well put, Dipsy.

    The start of the season seems a long time ago. I thought the Phils were unstoppable then. Especially the way they started the season.

    But that’s baseball, I guess. Injuries and down years and fluke plays. It’s a cruel game sometimes….

  • Posts: 0 Geoff

    Don..I learned a while ago to ignore the latest ranking systems that come out. The simple statistics are more than enoguh to tell the story.

  • Posts: 96 Paul Boye

    Avatar of Paul Boye

    The thing you have to remember with WAR is that it takes defense AND position into account. RBI and runs scored mean next to nothing. Howard has a good average, but isn’t walking and as such, his OBP is not that great compared to other 1B.

    OBP is actually more important than average. Think about it: “on base” means “not making outs,” not just “getting hits.” So if Howard has a .300 average, great. But if his OBP is TENTH among N.L. first basemen, with the less-than-stellar D he plays at the easiest position on the field, you can see why he’s rated lower.

  • Posts: 0 Chris.I

    Playing the Cards at this particular moment during all these trade talks isn’t helping one bit either…Who would you rather play for? Someone who sweeps a team or the team thats been sweeped? Bad timing

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Right.. but I also know that I’d rather have Ryan Howard than Bobby Abreu … despite the fact that Abreu has a higher OBP%

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    It sounds like WAR wants you to get on base … but doesn’t give credit to the guys that actually manufacture the runs

    or score the runs ?

  • Posts: 0 George

    When Lee was traded, the Phils had a healthy Happ, so Lee was used to gain prospects for the future. They need pitching now because Happ is unhealthy, and now Moyer is also down. The two are unrelated.

    Amaro is clearly looking toward the future when he talks about the “right pitcher.” Lee wouldn’t have been an option for 2011 due to his impending free agency and likely huge salary. Both Oswalt and Haren will make far less next year. Amaro would be foolish to trade for someone not under team control; he’d also be foolish to guarantee the option on a pitcher as old as Oswalt.

    I also don’t think anyone will give a lot for Werth, because he, too, won’t be under team control.

    Trades for decent players are never easy, and I don’t think fans should jump all over Ruben if he can’t get one done.

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    I also know that they give the wrong players ERRORS a lot of times…

    like last night when Ruiz throws to 1st.. hits Cody Ransom right in the glove, but Ransom doesn’t catch it … and Ruiz is charged with an ERROR .. which has happened with Howard on throws to 2nd base on more than one occassion

  • Posts: 0 Ted Bell

    “So now people don’t want to trade for Oswalt because of a 16 million dollar option in 2012? But some of the same would be happy to hand over 20 million a year for Cliff Lee?”

    Actually, I think there was a large contingent of fans (like myself) that wanted Lee for $9 million in 2010 and then let him walk after this year.

    I’m Ted Bell.

  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    How is Amaro going after a frontline pitcher an “admission that it (trading lee) was a mistake”??

    Ruben did what he thought was right then….and he doing the same now.

    It’s like Pat Gallen said yesterday when he used the phrase “moving with the market”

  • Posts: 0 Bruce

    Hey Paul Boyle, I’ll take Howard over any 1st baseman (with possible exception of Pujols) for my team. Every year he puts up monster stats for production. Any manager will tell you that producing RBIs is most important for the team. In the “year of the pitcher” Howard again leads in the all important RBI category (75) and currently 2nd in HRs (22). He has made major strides in making consistent contact in his goal for a .300 BA. Cutting down on strikeouts and now FOURTH in total hits among NL hitters. And we know he has made improvements in fielding as well. Who knows, there may come a day he gets his “gold glove”.

  • Posts: 0 George

    I wish someone had told me earlier that first base was the easiest position. I would have felt so much more superior when I was sent to play right field in Little League.

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Instead of having

    Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Happ, Moyer for 2010 .. and then

    Halladay, Hamels, Happ, Kendrick, __?__ for 2011

    Amaro thought that:
    Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, Moyer for 2010
    and Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, Kendrick (plus two pitching prospects for Lee) in 2011 would be the best plan to have a good rotation now, and good rotation later

    if Hamels, Myers, Blanton, Moyer was good enough in 2008

    then Halladay, Hamels, Blanton (Happ/Moyer/Kendrick) should be good enough in 2010 ….. at least on paper

  • Posts: 0 George

    Not only is Howard driving in runs, he’s doing it with fewer men on base this year.

  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    And Ted Bell…..you wouldn’t be happy with that scenario now….because Cliff Lee would not be able to solve the offensive issues or play the positions of players that are/were injured this season.

    AND he would be walking at the end of the year.

    I’m pretty sure you and the “large contingent” youy speak of would be b*tching about that.

  • Posts: 0 Publius

    Bruce, we discussed Howard ad nauseum when he got his extension, so let’s not drudge up those same arguments.

    As for value for Oswalt, keep in mind that the Cardinals are considering offering their top prospect, Shelby Miller, for him, so throwing garbage together and hoping the ‘Stros will take it simply won’t fly.

  • Posts: 0 Bruce

    @ Publius: Hey, I’m simply stating what a manager most desired out of his clean-up hitter. Production=RBIs. And Howard goes to the top of the list in the all important RBI category. Howard has been most productive every single year. There is no denying that fact.

  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    The Cardinals will not give them Shelby Miller. In fact, the won’t even trade for him. Further, I will go as far as saying that this is all a head fake by Oswalts agent to scare the Phils into picking up that option lest they lose him to another team.

    The Dipsy

  • Posts: 0 George

    The Cards are “considering” throwing Miller in. That doesn’t mean they will.

    But that also doesn’t mean the Astros will trade Oswalt for trash. The only way this could work would be a three team deal, probably built around Werth, because beyond Brown, the rest of the Phils’ prospects are too far down in the minors.

  • Posts: 0 Publius

    Dipsy -

    There are too many reporters saying the same thing. The Cardinals interest is very real and they’re further along than the Phils are. I think we can rule out “scare tactic” and instead its simply 2 teams very serious on Oswalt trying to create the best package.

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Yea I think the Phillies are having trouble getting “a lot” for Werth … and there plan was to flip whatever they got to the Astros for Oswalt

    IF he accepted a trade to the Phillies .. which he would only do if they picked up that extra year at $16 M …

    I think he’s off the radar right now ..

    Shields has a pretty low contract with 3 option-years tacked onto it … so if they think he has any upside, I think the Rays are more willing to move him than they are Wade Davis .. ( I had brought up UPTON before because they are tired of his average being so low, and waiting for him to breakout) .. maybe a change of scenery is all he needs

    I would take him over Ellsbury, but either would be an amazing return for Werth

  • Posts: 0 Manny


    I rather have a solid pitcher under team control for many years than yet another veteran who’s going to handcuff this team’s payroll in the near-future.

    We’re not scoring runs, that’s the problem!

  • Posts: 0 Chuck

    But is Happ solid? Is he healthy? Or is he damaged goods at this point?

  • Posts: 0 Lefty

    The fact that its Oswalt’s home town is what scares me, and should scare the Phils because it is real. He may very well give up the option to play for the team he grew up loving.

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