Phillies Nation

How was just kind of “there” ??

What the hell does that mean??

The guy played a stellar defense, played through a lot of pain, was among the league leaders in batting average for a lot of the season…..and still ended up hitting .298. he also had many clutch hits…or started rallies with hits.

Yeah, I guess that’s just “there”

I agree with Chuck… how can you give the guy a 6.2??? Who are we comparing him to, Ryan Zimmerman? David Wright? We wanted a guy to play good defense, hit .300 and not strike-out too much….

What did we think we were getting? A lot of people thought he was old, and unable to make a transition to third-base. And a lot of people have been proven wrong. He did play great defense and did everything we asked him to while also playing through pain. What can you complain about? That he should’ve had a couple more homers and 5 more doubles?? Please. Polanco gave us everything and more we could have hoped for.

He definately was worth more than a 6.2.

Does that mean he gets like a 9 if he went on the DL when he got hit on the arm and only played like 60 games instead of playing most of the year in what must have been excruciating pain?

I think that’s pretty much a fair assesment, if not slightly harsh. Polanco played an excellent 3B, there’s no doubting that. However third base is a power position, an infield corner, and 35 XBH’s doesn’t cut it. Yes he hit .298, but that is a VERY empty average. And just 32 walks in a season is very pedestrian. If Polanco could run like Rollins or Victorino it would be ok to hit an empty .300, but he just doesn’t. Good, solid player, but maybe a tad overrated by some of the fanbase. Pretty affordable the next 2 years at 5/6 million, and hopefully he’ll play better when injury free. However, he is 35 so a comeback is not a certainty.

“empty average” ??

Ok, so just what the hell does THAT mean??

Am I missing something here?? ”

“Just there” “Empty average”

What??….the dude was just an apparition out there at 3rd base.?? I seriously don’t know what some of you people are looking for in a player..

Did Polanco always choke up on his bat prior to getting hit in the elbow? I know that he choked up in 2-strike counts, but he was choking up regardless of the count later in the season. That may be why he lost power in the latter half of the season.

I also would like to see him walk more, but I doubt that he’ll learn better plate discipline skills at this stage of his career (they’re hard to learn at any stage). He puts the ball in play and doesn’t strike out too much, and that makes him a pretty good balancing force in the lineup.

You absolutely cannot just players on OPS as an absolute expecting every guy to have a stellar OBP. OBP from certain positions don’t mean anything anymore because teams players skill-sets have changed from the past so the Phils have had power in non-power positions negating the need for a power hitting high OPS 3rd basemen.

The Phils added Polanco because they needed a guy who would make contact and have a high AVG but not a great OBP. The line-up needed a guy who could spark the team with hits and make productive outs to move runners not another OPS guy who stats were inflated by extra base hits that probably didn’t contribute to runs.

Polly is a contributor not a creator and the expectation every hitter can produce OBP/OPS and every pitching can have a low WHIP, high K/9 is how you put together a team that doesn’t win because how many OPS teams are consistently winning in this league?

Wow.

Harsh. Polanco was an anchor in this line-up and on the field when he wasn’t on the DL. His defense was a lot neater than Chase Utley’s and he was fighting through an injury almost the whole season.

Too harsh.

Are you guys serious? This guy was steady freddy all year and played, not a good third base, a GREAT third base. I don’t know who you guys were watching but Placido was a Gold Glove candidate this year and don’t be surprised if he wins it. Good lord. OPS this.

The Dipsy

If you get to use vague hand wavy terms like “gritty” and “glue” and a player’s “style of play” I get to ask you what the heck that means, and how it changes my assessment.

If you’re saying that the Phillies didn’t need a big bat at 3B because they have them elsewhere, I’m not going to argue. But I thought we were just trying to evaluate the kind of season he had here.

Polly is a contributor not a creator and the expectation every hitter can produce OBP/OPS and every pitching can have a low WHIP, high K/9 is how you put together a team that doesn’t win because how many OPS teams are consistently winning in this league?

That’s actually exactly how you put together a team that wins. Or at least 3 good things to look at. I’m not a fan of WHIP really.

Guys that postpone surgery til the end of the year and play through pain and guys that tough it out for 6 innings with a groin strain….

….I’ll take those players on my team EVERY SINGLE DAY..

That’s the “gritty glue that moulds your team”

Everything isn’t always numbers and averages. There are those INTANGIBLES that certain players possess that can sometimes far outweigh some stat.

Of course, people like Phylan will poo poo what I’m saying in favor of looking at just the numbers…that’s why he thinks this is a fair grade.

Playing hurt is admirable, but when it hurts the team due to a lack of production is it really a great intangible ? Polancos numbers were downright poor after July, wheras Halladay still performed to a high level hurt. I’m not getting on Polanco in anyway, but often playing hurt actually has a negative impact on the team. Polancos skill set does compliment some of the teams power hitters, but his skill set as a whole is pretty average. A nice player to have hitting 7 or 8 perhaps, but probably not at second in the order.

I guess like the others, I expected a higher grade too. Somebody help me understand the grading process, please. Are the grades based strictly on numbers, or are intangibles involved?

Funny you said that Dipsy b/c all season long I used that phrase talking about Polanco, I called him the Phillies’ Steady Freddy. He was so consistent until the DL. He could always be counted on to PUT THE BALL IN PLAY. He almost never struck out & always seemed to make the smart defensive play.

Re fred’s discussion: I’m not deliberately trying to sound like a fence-sitter. But I understand what he’s talking about (though 2 pts lower isn’t exactly a MASSIVE diff). I would never have called Polanco the team’s best hitter. And prior to today, I had no idea where he ranked among the hitters. A guy who hits the way he does will never set the world on fire. He isn’t power. But he puts the ball in play, he generally gets a hit. But isn’t he performing a function, isn’t that his job?

Pedro Feliz last season for the Phillies:

OBP — .308
SLG — .386
OPS — .694
AVG — .266

fielding pct — .966

Placido Polanco this year with the Phillies:

OBP — .339
SLG — .386
OPS — .726
AVG — .298

fielding pct — .986

Does this not reflect a decent upgrade at the position for the Phillies?
And…if you answered “yes”…then what’s the issue?

“Better than Pedro Feliz” isn’t really a standard for evaluation, nor should it be since Feliz is godawful.

Fielding percentage is worthless??

Ok, next time a player either makes an incredible play or committs a costly error, I’ll just ignore it…because it’s worthless.

And, my point with the Feliz comparison is to point out that the Phillies wanted to upgrade at the position…which they did. The numbers don’t lie. Are they fantastic numbers?? No, of course not. I don’t think any one of us thought they would be going into this season.

But…again…it’s a clear upgrade…stats-wise..and also Polanco brings that other element to the equation…the “grit” , the “glue”…you know…that word…(shhh)…i n t a g i b l e.

fred: No, I get it. Polanco essentially does 2 things 1) put the ball in play; and 2) field (darn well) at 3rd.

Versus the Werth comparison–a legit “threat”: HRs, doubles, walks, works the count (wears down pitchers), SBs, speed, fields (good arm), plays diff positions; arguably a 5-tool guy. (And he wasn’t on the DL this season, btw, we should sign him …)

Don’t you see why sportswriters ramble on and on about intangibles all the time? Because you can literally invoke them for any player, and nobody can really argue with you because you’re not making any definitive statement. It’s the last easy out card to protect a player you have an emotional attachment to from criticism; in the case of sportswriters, usually the one who gives the best quotes. Jeff Francoeur is absolutely awful at baseball, and sportswriters fall all over themselves to say things about his intangibles, and it doesn’t even matter if he has whatever those are or not — he gives the best interviews.

You’ve either been consumed by this media parlor trick or you’ve adopted it for your own purposes here. Time for some self-reflection perhaps.

Look up the definition of intangible…and then try to argue with me some more about the word. I use it because it applies.

Baseball is more than just the stats. It’s what we see with our own eyes, what we FEEL. It’s that certain something that a player brings to his team that a stat can’t be placed upon. It can win games.

Stats are great. I look at them. I understand them. I appreciate the fact that they can be tremendous tools for evaluating players. But I don’t consider them the gospel truth. To do so would degrade the game of baseball and take away it’s human element, something that makes the game so special and intoxicating more than any other sport.

And stop it with the media sh*t. You tried that with me during the Wilson Valdez argument some weeks ago, trying to insinuate that I was somehow duped by the media into thinking that he was better than he really is….or than you think he is.

No, Phylan, I don’t use the media to make my conclusions. I’ve been around too long and seen too much to fall into that trap. I can see with my own eyes and feel with my on heart what’s going on.

Baseball is more than just the stats. It’s what we see with our own eyes, what we FEEL. It’s that certain something that a player brings to his team that a stat can’t be placed upon. It can win games.

Hey more words wherein you don’t actually say anything concrete.

Yes, there is more to baseball than stats. Specifically, scouting. To build a good team it’s imperative to combine statistical analysis with the informed opinions of experienced scouts. And guess what, not only are those scouts seeing much more than you do, they’re looking for bat speed, athleticism, range, arm strength, plate discipline, and a host of other things that make up a good player. They’re not looking for a “certain something” that they can “feel” in their gut or whatever.

Look, I like a player with a good work ethic too. It’s fun to watch guys that run stairs and throw bullpen sessions after a dominant start. It’s great to have guys that show up weeks early for spring training, guys that aren’t afraid to play through pain, guys that have a certain swagger. But these are bonus traits to players that are already great, not something that can be used to wave away sub-par performance, or that make up for it. Especially when you’re not saying anything nearly as specific as I am — you’re just saying that Polanco has “something” that you cannot even begin to describe for me, and that this makes him a 9 instead of a 6 or whatever. That means nothing.

And I didn’t even mention defense! There is no Perfect Game without Polly. All of the incredible pitching performances this season were aided by our defense, and Polly (diving constantly on the INJURED ELBOW that needs surgery most of the year) was a HUGE part of that.

I never said he should be a 9. That was YOUR assumption.

And….Polanco didn’t have a “sub-par performance” this year. Reference Lefty’s post at 2:38.

Phylan, I don’t know how old you are and it really doesn’t matter. But you remind me of a snot-nosed know-it-all kid that loves to talk down to people in a condescending manner because it makes him feel more important than he really is.

You may THINK you can come on here and push around the rest of us with that attitude of yours, but, I can assure you, you will make few friends and gain little respect doing so.

It being the Roids thing, I mean.

And Chuck, you really didn’t respond to anything I said, other than to call me a snot-nosed know-it-all-kid.

Its kind of interesting isn’t it – our hosts are gracious enough to drop this stink bomb and not comment anymore on it – like defend their positions, debate the opposing viewpoints.

Regardless, I believe most of us are on the same page. Poly was one of the most valuable players on the Phils this past year. Steady-Freddy, and when he came to bat with men on base, we anticipated something happening and were usually pleased with the results.

The fact that Poly got hurt, he did not complain, he still maintained a very decent glove and average – he is a vast improvement over what the Phils have had at third base in a long, long time.

And, if we can squeeze 1 or 2 more years of the same out of him (130 games or more, .300 ba.) that is all we ask for.

Poly gets at least good “B” in my book.