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Dr. Strangeglove: Hunter Pence and Terms of Enrampagement

Posted by Michael Baumann, Fri, July 29, 2011 09:00 AM | Comments: 80
Analysis, Dr. Strangeglove, Opinion, Posts

I try to keep my commentary on this site rational, coherent, and dispassionate whenever possible. But the past few days have tested my patience. So what follows is spoken not from a place of reason, at least not entirely, and is permeated throughout with profanity and invective. So if you’re looking for news, this is not the place for you. If, however, you’re as fed up as I am with the rampant speculation on trades that could, if you listen to some, not only save the Phillies’ current season (!) but prevent the imminent disaster that is Domonic Brown from raining down volcanic ash and deadly plasma upon our fair city, yea, unto the seventh generation, then this is the post for you.

I think today is the day, as such a trade becomes, it seems, unavoidable, that we turn to the internet not out of fear but for catharsis, because after months of trying to discuss the situation analytically, my patience is wearing thin. I’m tired of discussing the pros and cons of Relief Pitcher A versus Relief Pitcher B, or Hunter Pence versus Carlos Quentin and Ryan Ludwick. I’m through being patient and ecumenical, because, frankly, I’m afraid. I’m afraid that Ruben Amaro is going to do something, out of a misplaced sense of panic or perhaps nothing more complicated than his own ignorance, that is so profoundly stupid as to touch on the bounds of mental illness.

Here’s the thing. The Phillies have assembled a team that is clearly the best in the National League. Coolstandings.com, which probably does not bear as much resemblance to the Holy Gospel as I make it out to, but is still an interesting way to look at the standings, has them on pace to win 99 games for the first time since the Danny Ozark era and at a 96.9 percent chance of making the playoffs. What a laughable idea it is, in light of those facts, that the Phillies need to do anything!

Even after the Carlos Beltran deal, the Phillies still match up quite well with the Giants and Braves, certainly well enough for Charlie Manuel’s bunch to like their chances in a seven-game NLCS with home-field advantage. So why is Ruben Amaro putting his young players on the market, the ones who stand to continue this era of dominance that we’ve somehow all taken for granted will continue beyond 2012 or 2013?

Now that the trade market is settling into its final week before the non-waiver deadline, do you know what the Phillies have to do to be the overwhelming favorite to represent the National League in the World Series? Not a goddamned thing.

“Is anyone against pillaging the farm system for a mediocre bat and a relief pitcher?” Pat Gallen, Phillies Nation

“If the Phillies offered Singleton and Cosart for Pence and the Astros rejected it, 1) both teams are insane, 2) I hope ATL doesn’t beat that.” Peter Hjort, Capitol Avenue Club (Atlanta Braves’ SweetSpot affiliate)

Why the Phillies Shouldn’t Trade For Relief Pitchers
Cost. Pure and simple. Mike Adams and Heath Bell, the two Padres with whom the Phillies have been most seriously linked, are going to cost a lot. This is for two reasons: first, because Bell and Adams are both really good. Second, because relief pitchers are the most overrated commodity in baseball, perhaps in all of sports. Here’s the all-time list for leaders in wins above replacement for pitchers who didn’t make a single start in a given season. Since 1980 or so, when relievers started being capped at around 80 innings a season, only seasons of historical greatness (mostly by Mariano Rivera, with the occasional Brad Lidge and Jonathan Papelbon season thrown in) have been worth more than three wins above replacement: essentially, what Shane Victorino has done through two-thirds of this season. Let me say that again: a good (but not great) position player, like Victorino will help his team as much in two-thirds of a season as a historically great reliever does in the best season of his career. A good closer is worth maybe two wins nowadays. Domonic Brown is under team control for another five years and change. Even if he’s no better than Victorino–and expert projections suggest he’ll be far better–he’ll make up for a full season of Bell or Adams in a couple months. Jonathan Singleton is much the same, except he’d be under team control for six seasons.

Let’s say Bell is traded here for Singleton, who has the potential to put up, conservatively, about 25 WAR or more in six seasons before he hits free agency. I’m aware Singleton isn’t a sure thing, but 20 innings (and that’s the absolute maximum you’d get from a reliever with a typical usage pattern from now until October) of Heath Bell is worth maybe a win, compared to 20 innings of David Herndon. Now, if you’re saying there’s only a four percent chance that Singleton turns into a pretty good major league player–which, by even the most conservative math, is what it would take to make a Singleton-for-Bell swap worth it, marginal win-for-marginal-win–then you’re debating from a position so intellectually untenable as to strain the bounds of believability. You’d have an easier time convincing anyone who actually knows baseball (and if you don’t think I do, ask Keith Law or Jim Callis) that the world is flat than convincing them that 20 innings of Heath Bell (which you’d get from Roy Halladay in two weeks) is worth six years of Jonathan Singleton. Trading a top prospect for any relief pitcher is walking-into-a-sliding-glass-door stupid. If a top Phillies prospect–mostly Singleton and Jarred Cosart, but especially Domonic Brown–is traded for a relief pitcher, you’re going to need buckets and fishing nets to gather up the dessicated, neatly-diced body parts I’ll leave in my wake.

Ruben Amaro is a noted pescatarian, meaning that the only meat he eats is fish, a trait he has in common with dolphins. If he trades Singleton or Brown for Heath Bell or Mike Adams, Amaro will have demonstrated that, like a dolphin, he is operating with, admittedly, some degree of sentience, but with a level of intelligence far below that of even the most developmentally handicapped human being. It boggles the mind that major league general managers–who ought to be, at least on paper, 30 of the most knowledgeable and cunning baseball minds in the game–still overvalue relief pitchers as they do. If baseball people ruled the world, I swear we’d all still be in the fucking Bronze Age.

His game is even uglier than that uniform.

Why It’s Not Worth It to Trade For an Outfield Bat
Now that Carlos Beltran is off the trade market, I’ll rank for you the remaining outfield bats on the trade market: 1) Hunter Pence 2) B.J. Upton 3) Carlos Quentin 4) any of the various hemorrhagic fevers endemic to central Africa 5) burning to death aboard the Hindenburg 6) Ryan Ludwick. Pence, Upton, and Quentin are all good ballplayers who could help the Phillies quite a bit in both the short and long term. Look at these AVG/OBP/SLG lines, courtesy of Phuture Phillies, who played this little mind game on Twitter yesterday. Player A is Ludwick, Player B is Ben Francisco, and Player C is Raul Ibanez. All of those (though Francisco has a decent OBP) are awful. Francisco is pretty cheap, and Ibanez, at this point, is a sunk cost. Now, if you consider that Ludwick would cost a minor leaguer plus a prorated share of his $6.7 million salary, it goes from “pretty awful” to Lost in Translation awful, to the point where you feel like a part of your soul has been stolen from you and consumed by a fire-breathing shitdemon in front of your very eyes. The spectre of the Phillies giving up anything of value for Ryan Ludwick hangs above this franchise like the Sword of Damocles, and it haunts me each night. If Ryan Ludwick puts on red pinstripes this season, I would be tempted to go on a homicidal rampage, a campaign of random and graphic violence that would make Patrick Bateman blush.

Upton, Pence, and Quentin, however, are a different story. The reason the Phillies have done so well trading for pitching over the past four years is that they’ve managed to give up only relatively risky prospects for the top-level arms, and they’ve sold high on the likes of Michael Taylor and J.A. Happ, who haven’t held their value since leaving Philadelphia. Of the minor leaguers they’ve traded since midseason 2008, only Gio Gonzalez and Carlos Carrasco have really amounted to much of anything so far, though I reserve the right to change my tune if and when Travis d’Arnaud and Anthony Gose turn into Mike Piazza and Rickey Henderson. The thing is, the Phillies, by flirting with the idea of trading Cosart, Singleton, and Brown, risk giving up more (remember, Brown was unavailable in the trades for Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, and Roy Oswalt, all of whom were better than any outfielder being discussed here) for second-tier players.

As an aside, each of the three aforementioned outfielders has a caveat. Upton is controlled by Andrew Friedman of the Rays, who actually is as shrewd and intelligent as a GM ought to be, and would almost certainly rip the Phillies off. Pence is having a career year based on an inflated BABIP. As a rookie, Pence’s slash line was similar to his 2011 stats, and his BABIP was .377, even more unsustainably high as his .367 mark in 2011. For the next three seasons, that BABIP dropped to around.300 and he went from a .900 OPS player to a .780 OPS player, which is decent for a corner outfielder, but not particularly good. We should expect more of the 2008-2010 Hunter Pence, rather than the 2010 Pence. And for his part, Carlos Quentin’s career high in games played is 131. You can’t contribute if you’re hurt.

Could I find peace if the Phillies were to acquire B.J. Upton at the cost of three middling prospects? Absolutely; I’d rejoice at it and twiddle my thumbs lustily at the prospect of Upton playing center field next to Victorino in right–imagine how few fly balls would drop then. But for two or more potential superstars? Absolutely not. My objection to Hunter Pence and his ilk has never been their quality, which is self-evident; Pence, Upton, and Quentin could all help the team. It’s the idea of giving up too much for too little.

Imagine you’re at a bar ordering a beer. A glass of Chimay Grand Reserve (my favorite beer on the planet) might run you $8, which is fair. A pint of Guinness might be $5.50, Yuengling $3.50, and Bud Light $2. The Phillies have dined out for three years on acquiring glasses of Chimay (Halladay and Lee) for the price of a Guinness, but if Singleton and Cosart, plus another prospect went to Houston for Pence, as Ruben Amaro was rumored to have offered, that would represent spending $6 or $7 for a Yuengling, which is a nice beer, but not worth paying extra for. If anything of value goes to San Diego for Ryan Ludwick, even if he’s packaged with a reliever, that would be equivalent to buying a lukewarm bucket of leper’s vomit for the price of a Yuengling.

For one of these players, it would be reasonable to trade Singleton or Cosart, neither of whom, after all, are known quantities, and may represent fair value for an above-average corner outfielder. But trading Domonic Brown would be lunacy of the highest order, the kind of foolhardiness that recalls lemmings or the Children’s Crusade, and could represent just that kind of a disaster. You see, if we expect a .780 OPS from Hunter Pence–and if you’re at all willing to look consider arguments other than “…but he’s Hunter Pence and he’s great!” then you ought to–then why can’t Brown, who is much younger, cheaper, has room to improve and a .749 OPS this season all while recovering from a power-sapping hand injury, fill that void himself? Why spend more in salary and give up years of team control, to say nothing of the vast improvement that Brown is all but certain to undergo in the coming years, for only a marginal improvement on the field?

What’s more, what’s the guarantee that Hunter Pence hits better than Domonic Brown in the playoffs anyway? To those of you who say last year’s NLCS proved the Phillies needed another bat–were you watching the playoffs last year? The bats that lifted the Giants to the title belonged to Cody Ross, Juan Uribe, and the corpse of Edgar Renteria, hardly a murderer’s row of elite hitters, at least by 2010. The Phillies, on their run to the title in 2008, played 14 playoff games, a sample so small and so subject to randomness that the word insignificant scarcely does it justice. In a 12-game span from July 5 to July 23, Michael Martinez hit .298/.346/.489, but does that mean that he’s a good player? Absolutely not. There’s no telling whether Pence, or Brown, or even someone of obviously lesser quality, such as Raul Ibanez could wind up getting the key hit, which is why the playoffs, while entertaining, are a crapshoot.

I am at a loss to find a logical explanation for why anyone but a total sheep-buggering simpleton would do such a thing as trade Brown for Pence, unless he buys into the kind of bread-and-circuses doubletalk that gets poured into the eyes of Daily News readers and WIP listeners like so much shit into a medieval chamber pot. And if you believe the ill-considered shouted garbage that you see and hear in those media, than salvation and enlightenment may truly be beyond your grasp. May God have mercy on your soul.

In short, I’m praying that one of two eventualities comes to pass: 1) that Rube is posturing and that one of Pence, Upton, or Quentin could be had for a reasonable price–they’re all quality players, for sure, and he’s waiting until Ed Wade gets desperate to pounce on Pence, which is a surprisingly fun thing to say out loud. 2) That the Phillies, who, as I’ve said, need to to absolutely nothing to keep up with the top teams in baseball.

If another scenario plays out, however, then I won’t be held responsible for what I do. So go ahead, Rube, and trade Domonic Brown for a second-tier outfielder or a middle reliever, and let’s see what fucking happens.

 
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  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    Rip this article up. First off we need a solid Righty bat. At this point I woe take pence over Howard. We don’t beat the giants in the playloffs. They are much scrappier. Ruben knows how to GE it done.

     
    • Posts: 0 Steve

      I really, really hope you’re joking, Jeff

       
    • Posts: 0 Tim

      Amen. Brilliant article. Lets hope sane heads prevail.

       
  • Posts: 2118 Lefty

    “then why can’t Brown, who is much younger, cheaper, has room to improve and a .749 OPS this season all while recovering from a power-sapping hand injury, fill that void himself? Why spend more in salary and give up years of team control, to say nothing of the vast improvement that Brown is all but certain to undergo in the coming years, for only a marginal improvement on the field?”

    Here’s one good answer-Brown is left-handed. Do you not see what the Braves and Giants bullpens can do to us? If we get lucky and make the starter work hard enough to knock him out of the game, that is supposed to be an advantage to us. Presently with those two teams it is not.

    And there is no reason for you to plant an f bomb in this blog. Even the “commentariet”, or whatever your condescending word for us was, has the common decency not to do that.

     
    • Posts: 35 Michael Baumann

      The platoon advantage is overrated, particlarly . The concerns I listed (youth, cost, potential) all outweigh the possibility that, once every few games, you might come up against a situational lefty with Utley/Howard/Brown, if they even hit him fifth when he really gets going.

       
      • Posts: 35 Michael Baumann

        I also appear to have started a clause and left it there without finishing it. My apologies–it’s been a rough week.

         
  • Posts: 793 Manny

    Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for this article.

    I couldn’t agree more. And I agree with the guy who posted on Twitter saying that both the Phillies and Astros are crazy –one for offering Cosart AND Singleton, and the other one for rejecting that offer. This is why I’m scared.

    Please Ruben, don’t do something foolish. Sure he’s made some great trades, but he’s also made some other foolish moves (see Ryan Howard extension and multi-year deal to Joe Blanton).

     
  • Posts: 38 RatBastardNJ

    YESSSS! I am so glad someone wrote into words how I have been feeling in reading posts on this forum. So many are willing to hit the panic button and trade off some extremely valuable chips for at best an above average player. I was shocked that the ‘Stros rejected that deal if the media was correct and hopeful that the Phillies take it back before it is too late. I just don’t want to enjoy watching the Phillies for the next couple of years but for many years to come. I am surprised that Upton has not been discussed more as I think we could get him for less and he appears to really need a change of scenery.

    Stop hitting the panic button…I am so relieved that some of the posters on here are not our GM.

     
  • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

    Lefty, I am no saint or prude….but I was thinking the very same thing about the F bomb. Uncalled for on PN, unless you disguise it somehow (“eff” might work). That’s for sites like TheFightins…which I visit and get many laughs over.

    As for the RH bat debate…..quite simply, WE NEED IT. Lefty is right. Just take one look at the Giants and Braves and it becomes obvious.

    C’mon Ruben…..Git-R-Done!!

     
    • Posts: 2118 Lefty

      Thanks goodness, I really though I was all alone in this wasteland. I am no prude either, but young children read this.

       
    • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

      wait theres a phillies blog site that isn’t filled with uptight sanctimonious assholes? please tell me its also not filled with saber worshipping idiots too and I’ll think I’ve found my new site

       
  • Posts: 0 thomas

    Why he’s right almost every game we have won this season was due to great pitching are bats are not doing anything and even if we did get to the world series then we have to face either the yankess or the redsox when all they do is hit. Pitching is great but you need to score to win games the past two games we couldn’t beat 2 runs and 4 runs so for you sit there and say that we can compete makes you a moron and if your manager who knows the team best is asking for a hitter you get him what he wants

     
    • Posts: 0 Charlie

      I didn’t know only the Yankees and Red Sox were playing in the playoffs. Texas is just as good if not better than both of them

       
    • Posts: 0 Ben

      No, you need to score more runs than you allow to win. You don’t need to score some abstract amount of runs to win. Considering our aces give up something like 3 runs a game, all we need to do is score four, and we win.

       
  • Posts: 0 Charlie

    I couldn’t agree more Michael. One bat doesn’t fix a whole lineup, and I’m not willing to sacrifice good baseball down the line for one unguaranteed championship. These armchair GM’s act like Hunter Pence or Carlos Quentin guarantee a parade in October or November. Yes, Hunter Pence or Carlos Quentin, hardly superstars that will crush even more $$$ flexibility in the offseason, where we have to replace or resign the shortstop, get another starting pitcher(Oswalt/Blanton don’t look good for next year), get a bullpen piece or pieces to replace Madson and Lidge, and possibly a 3rd baseman if Polanco’s back is more troubling. Nope, they can still win the WS with what they have, in fact, I like their chances moreso with what they have than if they make a move. Chemistry is a big thing in baseball and I don’t want any outsiders coming in to mess it up. Ride it out!

     
  • Posts: 0 tjayvee

    How can you say the Phillies are the “overwhelming favorite ‘ to reperesent the NL in the Worls Series after the last two games.

    If anything, it showed why the Giants are.

    They were thoroughly dominated by Lincecum and Cain.
    I’d say it’s official – the Giants are in their head. They have to feel in sa close game, they’ll come up with the big hit and the Phillies won’t .

     
    • Posts: 0 Charlie

      Okay, so one guy is going to change the whole lineups head? Did the Giants get Halladay or Lee? No. Different ballgame when they are on the mound in October… In fact, let’s use next week’s series as the barometer, it’s 4 games and they will see 3 of our best pitchers…

       
      • Posts: 0 Devin

        No, but Hamels was, and last I checked we scored 1 unearned run in that game. So having Lee or Halladay pitching instead would miraculously allow the offense to score runs? Sorry, but i’ve seen Halladay get too many ND because the offense can’t score runs for him. Same with Hamels and and Mean ESPECIALLY – I MEAN ESPEEEECIALLY same with Lee. Lee gets the worst run support on the team, Hamels gets the 2nd worst. You act like plugging him in would have made the offense go off. THEY SCORED 1 ER IN 2 GAMES and ZERO ER off of Cain and Lincecum. How on earth can you sit there with a straight face and say that they lost because Lee or Halladay weren’t pitching? Were you even watching the games?

         
  • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

    Latest update says that “there’s a sense that the Phillies might be able to obtain Pence by offering Brown instead of Singleton and including Cosart in te deal”

     
  • Posts: 0 bart shart

    Michael Baumann —I feel a catharsis after reading your excellent article. I have been searching for trade news like a compulsive fool and thinking that the Phils are going to simply get their clocks cleaned by sneeky Ed Wade before he gets fired from Houston. My thinking is clear again and my bowels are moving. Thank you, my friend. You have cleared my system of frustration and anxiety. Excellent piece.

     
    • Posts: 2118 Lefty

      You need this? A cup of coffee works for me.

       
  • Posts: 2118 Lefty

    The reason you make a move is to correct a deficiency in your team if your analysis confirms that need. If you believe the team is set and can compete for a championship as presently constructed, you stand pat. If you believe that your competition is improving/or already can beat you in a short series, you make a move. I don’t play armchair GM, but I am a fan that watches every game and I believe that a move or two is necessary to combat the left-hand bullpens we will face. It’s really just a matter of opinion.

    @Manny- you know I was against this all season. I have been turned! I now see that this great team capable of winning the marathon every year, may have a weakness when it comes to the sprint that is the short series of the playoffs. We have to get more right-handed, It’s that simple.

     
  • Posts: 0 tjayvee

    @Charlie.

    How much better can Halladay or Lee do than Hamels did ?
    A 3 hitter like Worley? Still would have lost last night.

     
    • Posts: 0 Charlie

      I get what you all mean, what I’m saying is first of all, no team goes a whole season without valleys. This team has lost 2 straight games ONCE in a month and a half. They have actually lead the league in batting average and runs per game since the All-Star Break. One bat is not going to fix the problems that 7 other guys have up there. I respect everyone’s opinion, Im just not willing to mortgage the future for someone who, quite frankly, is not a superstar and does not guarantee anything, especially when you are going to make the playoffs anyway with the best rotation in the league and one of the best defenses. If this team were 7 games out or 12 games out of the Wild Card, I would say moves need to be made, but Jesus Christ, this is the best regular season they have had during this run.

       
      • Posts: 0 Charlie

        And finally, we’re treating Hunter Pence like he’s friggin Mickey Mantle. Check out his stats sometime, his BA is very misleading, he strikes out just as much as the other guys in this lineup, hardly takes a walk. We need more disciplined, patient hitters up there not another one that fits the same mold as the rest of the core of the team..

         
  • Posts: 2118 Lefty

    “Kansas City appears to be seeking a number three starter (or close to it) for Melky Cabrera or Jeff Francoeur. ”

    Now what is wrong with Kendrick for Melky or Fancoeur, right handers that could help us combat the left-handed bullpens we will face in a 5 or 7 game series in the playoffs?

     
    • Posts: 330 Publius

      In what world is Kyle Kendrick a number 3 starter? ESPECIALLY in the American League?

       
      • Posts: 2118 Lefty

        Well, let’s start with the New York Yankees and go from there. Or skip the absurdity of that, and go directly to the KC Royals, and you forgot the “or close to it” part.

        P.S. -Your response to Charlie above cracked me up.

         
  • Posts: 14 Moondog

    If I hear this Sabremetrics mumbo jumbo or Keith Law lunacy one more time I’ll scream. You need to replace Francisco, Ibanez, Mayberry and Brown in that order with anyone. They are all overmatched by good pitching and except for JMJ are poor defenders. I’ve watched Cosart and Singleton a few times in Florida and if they’re holding things up we’ve turned back into the Ed Wade Phillies.
    The Phillies won a WS with a Rule 5 pick, nontendered RF and two guys off the waiver wire. If you make a mistake you live with it and move on. Like Pat Gillick said think big.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

      totally agree with you about keith law and the saber crap.

      that being said; all hitters are overmatched by good pitching. that’s what makes it good.

       
  • Posts: 0 tjayvee

    How will players like Francouer help the Phillies combat left handed bullpens? Those lefties will only face the Phils lefties.
    At this point, there are only 2 teams that matter. Atlanta and SF. And both have at least 2 unhittable lefties in their pen.

    A rh bat may have some effect in the reg. seaosn but not in the playoffs. There is only one LH starter on ATL and SF.

     
  • Posts: 0 Matty

    When young unproven players are involved, there is always the element of the unknown. We can’t predict the future. Brown has talent and potential. He might become a superstar down the road, or be a complete disappointment. The question is, which way are you willing to roll the dice?

    If you keep him, and don’t win the series this year, and years from now he’s a flub, the “I told you so” people will come out of the woodwork. Likewise, if you trade him and he turns into a superstar, those same people will be in your face (especially if the Phils don’t win the series this year). I think the better question is not about whether or not to move Brown, but whether or not to move Worley.

    On the

     
  • Posts: 64 bacardi

    Its a tough one not given up the future on a team with older injury prone guys. However the Giants will spank us if we face them. Will Pence alone save the day probably not but he may just gives us a slight edge.

     
    • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

      No. Pence alone isn’t the answer. But I think we are at a point where a move needs to be made. Again….look at the Braves and Giants bullpens. We’re gonna have to get past at least one of those teams in the playoffs and I’d rather do it knowing we have a decent RH bat to COMPLEMENT the lineup.

      I don’t want to give up anybody….especially those guys mentioned. But the only way to get an impact player is to give up impact players or POTENTIAL impact players.

       
  • Posts: 0 tjayvee

    Has anybody else noticed this?

    A typical Dom Brown AB has at least 2 fouls balls,usually followed by a ground out or pop up. He just can’t seem to ever get the barrel on the ball.

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    I wrote this a few days ago and I think in an absurdist kinda way it encapsulates both the why, and why you wouldn’t, trade Brown for Pence. If I told you that Dom Brown was going to be the exact replica of Hunter Pence in 5 years, would you take it? I would. Well, if you would, there is Hunter Pence at 28 and you can trade Dom Brown for him right this second.. So essentially, if your keeping with my premise, you could trading the Dom Brown of NOW for the Dom Brown of 5 YEARS FROM NOW. So knowing that, do you make the deal?

    The Dipsy

     
    • Posts: 0 level headed

      We can’t really afford Hunter Pence, but it doesn’t get any cheaper than Dominic Brown. Trading the top three in your system is flat out dumb. It kills any chance of continued success which the Phillies can do with a high payroll, and home grown talent to keep prices down. Hunter Pence is not the answer. Getting him will not win a World Series if the rest of the team doesn’t start to hit.

      Trading for Pence DOES guarantee major financial problems for the Phillies next year. Rollins and Madson both need some cash, or replacements on the market which will most likely cost just as much. Signing Cole to a large contract will most likely not happen, and he will end up walking after next year. He needs to be signed this offseason to get any kind of a discount that he may give us. Trading Brown also leaves a HUGE hole in the OF next year. There will be NO ONE left in the system to help the team for a few years (outside of bullpen guys).

      The Phillies love back loaded contracts and 2012 is no exception. Cliff Lee, Placido Polanco, Shane Victorino and Carlos Ruiz together get a raise of $14.5M. Madson and Rollins won’t come cheap. Hamels will want a significant raise next year to stay in Philly long term cheaper, so probably $7-9M over what is on the books. All the money we save by people leaving will be taken for.

      I have tried looking at this from a perspective that makes sense, and it doesn’t. Maybe I have watched more baseball than most on here. I have seen plenty of deadline trades that did nothing to help the team overpaying with talent. I want a smaller move, Upton would be fine with me as he won’t take our three top prospects and is hitting .285 or so away from Tropicana Field. He would also cost a lot less over the next few years.

      Bottom line is the current Phillies need to produce. One player won’t help. I didn’t see Ben Francisco standing at home plate with his bat on his shoulders last year in the NLCS. It was the $20M man, which means the top of the lineup had the chance to tie or win the game. Pence in the 5 hole wouldn’t have mattered, they wouldn’t have gotten to him.

      If the 2008 team could win, this team can definitely win as is. I still expect a small move. More Joe Blanton type of move, Not Cliff or Oz.

       
  • Posts: 0 bart shart

    I hope Ed Wade is not playing games…..dangling Pence at the Phils with no intention of trading him. Making us lose time and opportunity with other teams at the trade deadline.
    I just do not trust him whatsoever. He just reminds me of a mean spirited little bastard.

     
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    Who cares about singleton. You have the overpaid Howard and the futuure is now. Doc and lee won’t be here in ten years. You guys like to complain when we make a solid move

     
  • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

    Dipsy, yes. But there are some that are convinced that the 28 year old Domonic Brown in 5 years is gonna be the second coming of either Hank Aaron, Willie Mays or Barry Bonds. Don’t know about anybody else but I’ve seen enough to pretty much determine that’s not gonna happen. Nice talent. Good Potential. Hope he does well, whether he’s here or in Houston or somewhere in Japan.

     
  • Posts: 2118 Lefty

    Wait,– You mean Dominic Brown is not the next Willie Mays????? :)

    Dipsy, Chuck and everyone else,

    If Dominic Brown’s ceiling is a Hunter Pence like player, you trade him now for the older MLB ready player. No question.

    But we don’t really know what Brown’s ceiling is yet. Could be lower, could be higher. Based on a small sample size, it’s not Willie Mays high, but could be higher than Pence. I’d hold onto him.

     
    • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

      Just thought of something….There are some on this blog that might not know who Willie Mays even is….based on their age…

       
  • Posts: 0 John

    Finally! Thank god somebody around here is sane! I’m sick of tired of reading the “Trade Baez and Kendrick for Pence” talk in comments throughout the internet, let alone the “Trade Brown, he sucks” shit I’ve been hearing for the past few days.

     
  • Posts: 2118 Lefty

    But I do agree with Chuck that you have to give up something of real value to get it back. Being a fan of the uniform and not the individuals, I won’t be shocked if we give up someone that we thought might be untouchable to get real value.

    And don’t ask me who, no armchair GM here. I’m just saying that guys like Rosenthal and Stark know nothing until the last minute when they take credit by being first to tweet. They base their BS on who’s scouts are where. It’s stupid, because any team can pull up years of video on any player they want anyway. They don’t really need to go anywhere to validate if a guy has lost a step.

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    Lefty – Risk/Reward my friend. I think anyone who is going to extrapolate his talent .

    …..

    I think that anyone who extrapolates Brown’s potential to be past that of what Pence is now would be in the minority. But he might turn out to be better. But why take the chance. Pence is a damn good player. I think in this case, a bird in the hand truly is worth two in the bush. Snap-pit.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    Listen, Brown could be a very talented ball player. COULD BE…The bottom line is we have a team built for now. Prosepcts are just a gamble. When you can get a guy in his prime for a couple years you do it. This team does not play small ball. The Giants play small ball. We try to hit homers. We need to scrap out a couple runs against there pitching. Doc, lee, utley howard rollins vic polly wont be here more then five years. we need to get this team to win as much as we can. worry about the future later. this team knows what they are doing. pence is a solid right handed hitter. good solid d player. brown right now has not helped us. popping foul balls and playing bad d. lets make this deal happen.

     
  • I know I come across as not likeing Brown on here, but I think he does have potential but he has had a lot of time in the minors to learn how to play defense, it is not like hitting, where you are facing minor league pitching and it takes time to adjust. It is tracking a ball of the bat and taking good lines and knowing when to give up a single instead of a double or triple, that does not change from A to AAA to the majors. And Brown has not learned that. I am not saying to trade him for Pence, and I am not saying do not trade him. I do not think Brown is untouchable, and in the right trade it would not be a bad thing. Did the Phillies give up on Borne to early? And the one thing the gets skipped a lot on here is next year, I know some say who cares about next year, but you still have 3 aces for next year, Raul, Lidge money coming off the books and you need to sign Rollins and extend Hamels.

     
  • Posts: 0 Mark

    You don’t have to extrapolate much to determine Brown’s ceiling is higher than Pence. Pence isn’t that much better than Brown RIGHT NOW. And Brown is almost 5 years younger and a hell of alot cheaper. It’s amazing how many people just completely ignore the financial aspect as though the Phillies have the Yankees budget.

     
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    Quiet simply a move needs to be made for Pence. I don’t know what worries me more the Phillies going to the playoffs without Pence or Atlanta going into them with him. The moment the Braves entered the bidding a new dimension was added to this situation. I think both teams could live without Pence but neither team wants the other to get him. I would rather not include Brown in the package but I would if that was what is needed.

     
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    Pence is not much better????? Look at pence last last 4 years. Brown has a long way to go.

     
  • Posts: 0 Dave

    I’m not sure the Phillies are better than the Giants. On paper I’d say we’re better, but we haven’t shown it for 2 years.

     
  • Posts: 0 bart shart

    Reading MLB TRADE RUMORS is driving me nuts. It appears to me that Ed Wade is really exercising gamesmanship playing the Phils and Braves off each other. I can’t blame the guy. He stinks as a GM and this may be his last hurrah in that post.

    Would it be so wrong for the Phils to say forget Pence? We are going after Jeff Francoeur and a solid reliever. Francoeur can hit southpaws and plays a solid right field. We may be able to get two decent players and fill two holes with what we would give up in a deal for Pence. We could keep Brown and develop two platoons — Ibanez and Mayberry in left and Brown/Francoeur in right.

     
  • Posts: 2118 Lefty

    Heyman reporting the Astros don’t love our pkg. and that includes Dominic Brown.

    It’s a ploy to get the Braves to up their offer, and us to up ours. Ed Wade is going to exact his revenge on Amaro, before he loses his job. LOL

    IMO- Pull the f’n offer, just pull it, and get the hell out of there.

     
  • I am not positve but I think it was 2008 and the Phillies regular season record was not that good against the Dodgers and could not hit there dominant closer all year, but then what happened. I may be wrong cause I do not have all the stats in my head. So why am I not worried about losing two games in July. And remember that we also do have polonco hitting behind JRoll, even though Marteniz has been OK but if Polonco can come back healthy he would make a difference in this line up. And I said it yesterday and I will say it again JMJ needs to play RF for a week or two even against RH pitchers he seemed to pick up his plate discipline since being called up, and played every day for vic even if it was batting 8th.

     
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    We need someone with consistency to be in right field and, hopefully, bat right handed too. At this point I don’t like the idea of going into the playoffs with Brown and/or Francisco as our starting Right Fielder. Lets face it, most likely we are going up against the NL Central winner in the first round and then the Braves or Giants in the second. We cannot handicap ourselves for that match up with our current Right Field situation.

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    I believe that an outfield with Ibanez and Brown at the corners will spell doom for the Phillies in the postseason.

    The Dipsy

     
    • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

      I agree.

       
    • Posts: 0 Mazinman

      I agree although I can live with Ibanez in left as long as we have someone consistent in right.

       
      • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

        MLBTR reports that the Phillies and Astros may be exploring a three team deal involving Pence. Hmmmm….

         
  • Posts: 0 Mark

    Has anyone knocking Brown even tried to figure how much better Pence is than Brown? Or should we simply take these wild claims at face value? It’s impossible to look at Brown right now and, factoring in his minor league track record, determine his ceiling is Pence right now. Pence at best gives the Phillies a marginal improvement in playoff odds. For that you’re willing to give up a potential star who’s under team control for the next few years for less than $500k a year?? Let’s not forget that Ibanez is gone next year, so if they swap Pence for Brown the Phillies are still in the market for an outfielder next year. What’s the plan then? Too many people have such a short-term vision. Thankfully, Amaro seems to have an eye on winning now while still building for the future.

     
    • Posts: 0 Mazinman

      Brown may well be a potential star some day but he sure is not playing like one right now. I think he still has a lot to go before he is truly ready to be a star (if ever) and the middle of a question for a World Series title is not it. He does not benefit us being here or being back in AAA. Again, I would rather we keep him but I am not against trading him if it brings back a good player like Pence.

       
  • Posts: 330 Publius

    Oh God Ruben is getting desperate and is gonna make a dumb trade.

     
  • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

    love this article. good to see some common sense finally make its way into the argument here. the biggest thing that makes me want to go on a homicidal rampage is the idea that Dom Brown is a bust. .250 with a handful of homers and some flashes of brilliance here and there does not make you a bust as a rookie. those are better rookie numbers than most have had. people have no patience and no sense. negadelphia strikes again.

     
    • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

      Ryan H…..I don’t think anyone ever said that Brown is going to be a bust. It’s about winning NOW.

      And….for the record….I’m one of the LEAST negative people on here.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

        wasn’t addressing you specifically. Just responding to the myriad of dopes who have written off Brown completely. these are mostly the same people who are in love with michael martinez and john mayberry.

         
  • Posts: 0 Mark

    Brown doesn’t need to play like a star right now. He’s an above average hitter making the league minimum. That alone makes him extremely valuable to any team.

     
  • Posts: 0 dylan

    here is the final debat game 7 nlcs rematch giants vs phillies at citezen bank park brain wilson and his beard are in who do you want battin pence or brown. dombrown has never played post season how do we know he wont be electric

     
    • Posts: 35 Michael Baumann

      Postseason experience is overrated. Roy Halladay threw a no-hitter in his first postseason start.

       
  • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

    Who the hell on here is “in love” with Michael Martinez???

     
  • Posts: 49 Tom

    What no one has said is that the difference between this year’s team and the 08-10 Phils is that they have not made up for the loss of Werth’s production from the RH side of the plate! During those three years, he averaged 29 HR’s & 86 RBI’s. The front office says that they couldn’t afford to keep him, but they haven’t been able to replace that production. They thought that Francisco was ready to step up after the stellar Spring Training that he had, but it hasn’t panned out. Mayberry is good but not ready to fill that void yet! This team is built to win now and need to do what’s necessary to deliver! This is still what separates the Phils from the Yanks and Sox! Those teams can develop new talent while still bringing in veteran players until that talent is ready to take over. Brown and Mayberry are not ready yet. I agree that Brown should not be moved, but the front office needs to make a move to win this year!

     
  • Posts: 1637 Chuck A.

    It’s kinda eerie. Sorta like the calm before the storm on here ….

     
  • Posts: 11 arminius

    It seems to me that the Giants have the Phillies number. We do not need new players we need to score runs the old fashioned way. We should try bunts, hit and run, steals. We should also change the line up. Maybe have Mayberry play first for a game and Valdez play second for another. Or maybe hit Martinez third and Utley fifth.

     
  • Posts: 0 Mark

    We should just trying scoring more than the other teams. Or hold them to fewer runs. Whichever.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Just to clear things up and make a public record I despise Baumann and Don M.
    And their knowledge is lacking.

    But they will correct your grammar.

     
  • Posts: 76 branderson925

    Great article. Really man, good stuff.

    I’ve been fiendishly checkign mlbtraderumors.com and other sources the past few days hoping more news about Pence comes through. And I’d been eagerly hoping we could swing a deal for Pence but D. Brown is too much. You can’t give up on the dude now.

    I’m down with parting ways with our top 2 prospects and somebody else but don’t give up (on) Mr Brown

     
  • Posts: 0 Thomas

    First look at it like this we need a bat no more to it and for people to sit there say we dont your fools you have four aces and oswalt will be fine for next year tired of hearing that hes no good he got injured it happens but lets run threw the lineup ruiz is still basically a contact hitter ut hes such a good catcher and works so good with our pitchers i keep him at1st you have howard who is good but not worth the money hes paid at second you have utley now i say hes as solid as you get he was injured for the beggining of the season but sense being back hes hit 8 hr and i think as of tonight so far 32 rbi nice numbers for the times hes played now at ss we have rollins who is good from time to time but after the past 2 years of being injured i wonder will he be back next year at third you have polaco who will be back soon whos still an awesome contact hitter not to the out field where we have issues we have ibanez who is becoming washed up he should be gone next year we have victoriono who is our best player right now and now we have brown who is young and has the chance to make a difference on our team i dont think we should get rid of brown cause cause will have the same issue we have now cause when ibanez is gone whos gonna take his place honestly i would make a trade with padres for ludwick and adams so ludwick can add some power but you also upgrade your bullpen or go to tampa were you have upton who tampa has said that there not asking a lot for honestly i say take upton and save our money for free agency and then try to pick up reyes cause the money rollins is gonna want is not worth it

     
 
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