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Santana Named as PTBNL in Pence Deal

Posted by Jay Floyd, Mon, August 15, 2011 02:05 PM | Comments: 32
Blueclaws, Minor Leagues, News, Posts, Prospecting

Critics already had their fun with the details of last month’s deal that saw the Phillies send their top two prospects to Houston for All-star outfielder Hunter Pence. Many have said the price was too high for a Pence who is “good, but not great”. Others stuck by the old “prospects aren’t proven commodities” argument. But with Monday’s news that another top ten prospect from the Phillies’ organization was being sent to the Astros, those determined to critique the trade will have more to gripe about.

Sources confirmed
for PhoulBallz.com early Monday afternoon that 19-year-old outfielder Domingo Santana is heading to the Astros as a player to be named later.

The 6-foot-5-inch 200-pounder is often regarded as a five-tool talent. Scouting himself, Santana declares that he is a power hitter. He also asserts that the recognition that has come his way, by multiple outlets naming him among the Phillies’ best prospects, has helped him to focus and strive to become better.

Santana, a native of the Dominican Republic, was signed in 2009 at the age of 16. After debuting in the professional ranks that year, Santana batted .288 with 6 HR and 28 RBI in 37 games with the Gulf Coast League Phillies. The following season, Santana split time with the Class A Lakewood BlueClaws and the short season Williamsport Crosscutters. In 103 combined games, Santana posted a .211 batting average with 8 HR and 36 RBI in 103 games played.

This season, the righty hitting Santana has shown improvements, posted a .269 average with 7 HR and 32 RBI in 96 games as a member of the BlueClaws.

The key for Santana’s progress will be his ability to improve when hitting against left-handed pitchers and spreading out his hits, according to Lakewood hitting coach Greg Legg.

“Santana really comes in and works every day in the (batting) cage,” Legg said recently. “The two areas for me, where’s he’s got to get a little better at, is obviously hitting off left-handed pitchers and, you know, using the whole field a little bit better, because he has great power the other way. Sometimes he tends to pull the lefties, with runners in scoring position.

“If those two areas improve, and I think that comes with experience, he’ll be more successful. Other than that…he’s hitting for a higher average, he’s hitting the ball hard, he’s still showing the power.”

On July 29th, in the initial portion of this deal, the Phillies sent their top minor league arm Jarred Cosart, top overall offensive prospect “The Boss” Jonathan Singleton and right-handed reliever Josh Zied to Houston for Pence, who has already proven valuable to the big league lineup (.327 avg, 3 HR, 11 RBI, .926 OPS), in two weeks, with the defending National League East division champions, as they hope to reach the World Series for the third time in four years.

Surely, if the Phillies can ride the steady production of Pence all the way to their third ever World Series title, the trade will prove to have benefited the Phils enough to warrant the amount of star potential they gave up. If they fall short, however, trade evaluators could surely have their fuel to declare the Astros as winners of this talent exchange.
_______________________________________________

Jay Floyd is PhilliesNation’s minor league insider. If you follow Jay on Twitter, you heard this news directly from Jay before anyone else had it.

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About Jay Floyd

Jay Floyd has written 663 articles on Phillies Nation.

Jay Floyd is PhilliesNation's minor league insider. You can read more from Jay by visiting his site, PhoulBallz.com.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 John

    Of course, the part of the conversation we are leaving out is this. Santana was a C+ prospect coming in to the season, and is only 8th on the list because the Phillies system is beginning to get a bit thread-bare. He has a very, very poor pitch selection and identification ratio (K/BB/AB), which, despite his young age, is a troublesome marker for “toolsy” players. This power hitter also has a whopping 7 home runs.

    Add in the fact that Singleton is blocked by Howard, and, well, I think the criticism of this deal is outrageously unfair, given that Pence is still under control.

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    I have a feeling in 2 or 3 years the Phils must start to rebuild. At that point they will start dumping some of their stars for new talent. It has to be done at that point the Phils where regress while they rebuild. Then at that point the Astros will be the contenders. For now let’s enjoy it.

     
  • Posts: 1190 Manny

    Avatar of Manny

    WOW. I thought PTBNLs were usually mediocre prospects… and Santana is actually a pretty good one. Boy we gave up a lot of talent in this trade.

     
  • Posts: 312 Jay Floyd

    Avatar of Jay Floyd

    I’ve seen Santana play a lot this year and his improvements hitting LHP in the past 2 months have been big, while his recognition of pitches still needs improvement.

    Looking at his stats as an 18-yr-old (he just turned 19) in the SAL, there’s no reason to focus on the negatives.

     
  • Posts: 0 Don M

    Yea, what are the Phillies since we got Pence .. … 12-2 ? …. It was a deal that had to be made to WIN NOW … and you have to give up talent to get talent.

    We’d all make this trade even knowing how much we gave up

     
    • Posts: 0 EricL

      lol, yes, they HAD to make that trade because they were so awful without Pence!

      They had the best record in baseball at the time of the trade and had the second best offense in the NL since Utley’s return. They gave away 3 of their top 10 prospects for a slightly above average outfielder who they didn’t need.

      But hey, at least it gives something for Chris Wheeler to dream about on those long lonely road trips.

       
      • Posts: 5223 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Looking at stats alone, “slightly above average” is about right EricL. But this is where I differ with those that look at numbers as the be all, end all. Pence brings an energy and electricity that this team was sorely missing, first place or not. Ruben proved that the organization thinks there are bigger goals, that we did need Pence. There are always costs, nothing worth having is free.

        If you want to use stats alone, thats fine. I can pull hundreds of them and make them work for me on both sides of an argument. Here’s one for you- The New York Mets have the second highest batting average in the league right now. I’ll take bets from anyone that they will not be playing postseason baseball this year.

         
      • Posts: 0 EricL

        “Energy” and “Electricity” and don’t forget “grit” and “plays the game the right way!”…all the typical rhetorical bastions of those without any actual evidence to support their assertions.

        What, exactly, was their electricity deficit? They seemed to be quite electric to me. You know, best record in baseball and all that.

        How are you measuring these units of “energy” that they were sorely needing? Joules? And how many does Pence bring that the platoon of Mayberry/Brown didn’t?

        The difference between my stats and yours (Mets batting average?) is that mine are actually relevant. The Phils had the best pitching staff in baseball, scored the 2nd most runs in the league since the end of May and thus had the best record in the sport prior to making this move. Thus, it was not necessary and they weren’t lacking much of anything. So you can make up any ethereal non-quantitative metrics you like; I’ll stick with actual evidence.

         
      • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        “The difference between my stats and yours” Usually someone would actually have stats listed if they were to make a statement like that. Like say a .327 average since being traded. Or a .311 average for the season (ranked #2 in the NL). Maybe a .840 OPS for the season? How about his 141 hits which is tied for 1st of all NL RF’s? Could it even be his numbers, including AVG, OBP, SLG (.OPS), HR’s, Runs and RBI’s compared to the Phillies RF’s prior to the trade? He just doesn’t compare to all OF’s either, considering his .311 AVG is a horrible 6th in the NL, and 2nd in hits among all NL OF’s. Could it even be his 29 doubles which is 3rd in NL RF’s and 4th in NL OF’s? How about compare him to the Phillies former RF from 2010? Would you like to compare the batting average? Maybe the doubles? How about the HR’s, wow, that one they are tied. I have it. Strikeouts! The other guy has 122 K’s, and Pence only has 97! See, looking at STAT’S, Pence SUCKS and is only “slightly above average”. See those numbers that I have listed? Those are called STATISTICS! That is how you rate how a player plays.

        “Energy” and “Electricity” and don’t forget “grit” and “plays the game the right way!”… Those are called INTANGIBLES. Also described as

        adj.
        1. Incapable of being perceived by the senses.
        2. Incapable of being realized or defined.
        3. Incorporeal.
        n.
        1. Something intangible, especially an asset that cannot be perceived by the senses.

        His excitement, and “energy” rubs off on other players. His youthful attitude and great work ethic. Look at other players as well. Do you think that say Cole Hamels is having a career year because he all of a sudden developed a work ethic that rivals Roy Halladay, or maybe…Just maybe, Cole Hamels has witnessed what Roy has done, and continues to do on and OFF the field, and developed a routine and work ethic that rivals Halladay? It is not difficult to imagine that some of the younger players both on the Phillies MLB, and in the farm system might just see his work ethic, and his attitude and want to emulate him. Could we possibly think that those others players could develop a similar work ethic? Your posts are laughable. They really are.

         
      • Posts: 5223 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        I was going to say-
        Not Joules or nanojoules, microjoules, millijoules, Klilojoules, megajoules, Gigajoules, Terajoules, Petajoules, Exajoules, or even Zettajoules, but Yottajoules, lots of them,

        But Brian said it better.

         
      • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        Thanks Lefty. :) My problem is I am a bit more longwinded than you are. LOL

         
      • Posts: 0 joey

        pay attention dummy.. a few days before they had Just got ten their asses kicked — at the end of July — by the Giants again… and Howard was 0-8 with like 115 men left on base

        winning 107 games doesnt mean crap if the Giants beat you in the NLCS

         
  • Avatar of The Original Chuck P

    This is a bit of a surprise… makes me a little bit squeamish to think that we gave up three of our top ten prospects for a corner outfielder but you can’t argue with performance and, thankfully, Pence has performed.

     
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    The emphasis here is “prospects aren’t proven commodities”. Like was said…you gotta give talent to get talent back. There is no way to really know if these prospects will pan out. And if the Phillies win it all this year then I could care less if all three of these guys that were traded end up being superstars.

     
    • Posts: 542 Bruce

      Avatar of Bruce

      @Chuck A. : I like your comment regarding ““prospects aren’t proven commodities”. In return for those unproven “talents”, we got a bonafide talent in Pence who has blossomed into an All-Star typed player. His enthusiasm and desire to excel is ideal for the Phillies. Going from the basement (Astros) to the penthouse (Phillies) has provided him the focus and rechannel his energy into helping the team in achieving their ultimate goal..a World Series Championship. As often said here, “the future is NOW”.

       
  • Avatar of The Original Chuck P

    If we win… big if.

    It’s a lot of risk and you want to see us get market value for our prospects. The key is that we’re not just talking about this year with Pence- we’re talking about the next few years. Singleton, Cosart and Santana is a valuable trio of prospects. I definitely think that it is worth it.

     
  • Posts: 220 The Dipsy

    Avatar of The Dipsy

    Prospects are for: 1) Playing 2) Trading.

    Even with the trades of the last two years, the Phils have more legit prospects in their system now than anytime during the 70′s, or 80′s, or 90′s. And maybe all three of them combined. Before Hamels, the last really good pitcher developed by the Phils system was…..gulp…..Chris Short. This system has produced Hamels, Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, Outman, and to a lesser extend Happ and Worley.

    We still have a lot of guys down there.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    EricL….Would you agree or not agree that since the addition of Pence the Phillies are a better team with a better lineup?

    This WAS a trade they had to make…..even if you think he’s just “slightly above average”

     
    • Posts: 0 EricL

      They may be very slightly better, but that doesn’t justify trading 3 of the top 10 organizational prospects, and there’s no way anyone can legitimately argue they HAD to make it. Again, prior to the trade they had the best record in the game and the second best offense since Utley came back. The best team in major league baseball doesn’t HAVE to make any moves barring injury, because it’s self-evident that they’re already talented enough (even after missing their Hall-of-Fame caliber 2b for the first month and a half of the season) to be better than every other team.

      And in the end, very marginal improvements like that don’t make enough of a difference in the playoffs. A 100 win team only beats a 90 win team about 60% of the time over the course of a 7 game series. The playoffs are very high variance and so small improvements are not worth a king’s ransom because they guarantee nothing.

      The Phillies were also a better team than the Giants were last year, and they didn’t win the series. The Yankees were a better team than Texas over the course of last season but didn’t make the World Series. Hell, the 116 (!!) win Seattle team of 2001 didn’t even make the World Series. The Phils were the best team in the league before the trade, and remain so after.

      BTW, the addition of Pence probably costs the team the ability to resign Madson this offseason, although I care less about the money than the waste of value in dumping lots of farm system talent to address things that aren’t really huge need.

      If Ed Wade had acted like Ruben Amaro has the last few years, this team wouldn’t have the core talent of this team, guys like Utley, Howard, Hamels, or Rollins, because they’d have been sent packing to try to marginally improve the team mid-summer. Because, you know, they’re just prospects and we have to WIN NOW! Ultimately moves like this decrease the window of possible success, not increase it.

       
      • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        And yet we continue to look at the (unproven) PROSPECTS and see Cosart and Singleton. Cosart could hurt more than losing Singleton, because be honest, when do you expect to see Singleton break through if he stayed with the Phillies? Like it or not, he plays 1B, and did not do well when they switched him to LF. Whether you like Ryan Howard or not, he is the Phillies first basemen for the foreseeable future, and I really do not see the Phillies trading or releasing Howard anytime soon for Singleton to come up and play. Howard is locked up for another 5 years if I have that correct. Is it reasonable to think that they Phillies will have a complete inability to draft another first basemen with the credentials of Singleton? Maybe they decide to try Greene at first base?

         
      • Posts: 0 joey

        arguably the stupid baseball post I have ever read. Good Job Eric. You start off with an assertion which is crap then build more crap on top of it…. usually you dont see this of sort idiocy unless one is reading phllly.com of the idiots over at TGP

        “trading 3 of the top 10 organizational prospects,”
        that is just Bullsh!t. Santana does NOT come remotely close to be placed in top 10 in the Phillies organization.

        **** can you site 1 source that place this kid as of on the top 3 Phillies prospects
        .
        then you come up with this crap… “and there’s no way anyone can legitimately argue they HAD to make “…>

        look stupid the week before they trade they played the Giants and got their asses handed to them . They didnt touch Lincecum or Cain.

        and SINCE the trade… the trade that a n idiot like you says cannot be defended … they went 12-2 the BEST west coast road trip EVER — oh yeah that!!– and took 3 of 4 in SF.

        yet according to YOU none of that matters…..

         
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    Pence is great no doubt he brings a certain something to this club that was somewhat lacking with it’s older core of players. However i wonder if they would got Michael Bourn for a lot less. Both have similar batting average with Pence been a better power hitter but Bourn been better defensively. Just a thought…

     
    • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

      Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

      I am surprised it took this long from someone to say this. The question is, would Bourne have moved to RF? I doubt they would have move Vic to RF. Not to mention, I have a strong feeling that RAJ evaluates moves based on personalities. It doesnt matter how much talent you have if the players dont get along, they will have a harder time winning a championship. i.e. Miami Heat. Now the Phillies have a high amount of talent, plus they have a high amount of comraderie and clubhouse guys. Put it all together, and you have championship caliber team. My question is, was Bourne looked at? If so, would he not move to RF, or would he just not really fit in to the clubhouse like Pence seems to? These are questions that we simply can not answer.

       
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    “Very slightly better” ??? The Phillies are 12-2 since the trade. Pence has had a HUGE impact on the team. Maybe they had the best record at the time of the trade but the lineup was missing a piece that was necessary. And the team and the clubhouse was missing the spark or energy it needed as well. Pence provides that and if you can’t see it then you’re really not paying attention. D Brown wasn’t going to cut it and we all know it. Getting Pence was not a “marginal improvement.”

    And I disagree that this move will cost them the ability to resign Madson. They may not be able to do that anyway because of what he and Boras will demand and that has very little to do with Pence being here.

     
    • Posts: 0 EricL

      Yes, I know what their record is over the last few weeks, but your sample size is too small for it to mean anything. I just finished explaining how short sample sizes (playoffs) are not really indicative of true talent level because of the high variance involved in any one baseball game – so obviously the next thing you do is trot out a small sample size to try to back up your assertion. They were also lucky enough to also play some awful teams over that span (Pit & SF in the midst of huge losing spells and WAS/LAD/COL for a combined .483 winning % – not exactly world beaters).

      As for your nonsensical “spark” and “energy,” please see my response to Lefty. Those are akin to fairy dust, divine intervention or telepathy. They’re non-existent traits which are used as arguments made by people to explain an irrational infatuation with one player or to denigrate another (Brown) and which cannot be backed by actual quantifiable facts. And if that’s not enough, it’s quite ridiculous to claim that the best team in baseball needs more “energy” or a “spark.”

      And yes, Pence’s $10MM salary next year is going to eat into the money they have to spend on free agents, which include Jimmy and Madson. You can’t really say that adding $10MM in salary won’t have an influence on their decisions on other free agents, because, well, it’s obvious that it’s $10MM they won’t have to spend somewhere else.

       
      • Posts: 5223 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        See- Ibanez; Raul

         
      • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        Wait a second Lefty, are you trying to say that subtracting Raul’s $11.5 Mil contract and adding Pence and $10 Mil contract might be a wash, considering we will probably see Brown or Mayberry playing playing LF next season making less than a Mil a year? When did “$10MM” become less than 11.5? The point is, we dont have to go spend that “$10MM” for Left Field OR Rght Field if Pence is that “$10MM” and Mayberry or Brown are playing LF. Just saying. The argument that by adding his contract is going to prevent the Phillies from re-signing Rollins AND Madson is a bit on the idiotic side. His contract is kind of a wash with the future of LF where it is, not to mention, have you ever heard of the guy named Brad Lidge? So you are telling me that the Phillies will not be able to sign either Rollins OR Madson because the Phillies will have to pay Pence “$10MM” next season? Wierd, because the way I see it, is Lidge AND Ibanez are BOTH making $11.5 Mil! Now I am not a rocket scientist, but the last time I checked, those two salary coming off the books equals $23 Mil, adding say $11Mil between Pence and whoever plays LF if they go with Brown or Mayberry. I think that $23 Mil – $11 Mil is $12 Mil. I have a strong feeling that with $12 Mil they will be able to sign either Rollins or Madson. I would also be curious about them trying to trade Blanton next season or maybe even the off season. Chance of that happening considering he has been on the DL for most of the season are Slim, but you never know. They could end up getting a trade for some prospects in the Minors, and not having his $8.5 Mil on the books.

         
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    Are we still having this discussion? Pence has been awesome since he got here. We would be extremely lucky if any the prospects we gave up put up his kind of numbers. Not to mention if they had the positive club house impact and seemed to fit so well for Philly. However, I keep saying that this discussion is pointless right now. We won’t know if this was a good move or not for a couple of years.

    For all of you who are worried about the farm remember that Madson will help out in that front. I am of the opinion that we do not need to bring him back. Boras will look for a huge contract for him and he can go ahead and get it somewhere else. In the meantime we can give Bastardo a shot at closing next year and use the extra draft picks we would get from Madson leaving to build the farm system back up a little.

    No need to panic people. Just enjoy the awesomeness of the team we currently have on the field. Its not like we have up our best pitching prospect for a player who is hitting .240 and is having injury issues again.

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    Didnt think about the prospect part regarding Madson. However lets say Madson leaves. Leaves just Star-Do an Stutes an ailing flailing Contreras at Bullpen. If Star-Do somehow regresses a lot next year then what?

     
    • Posts: 0 Mazinman

      Well we got some good bullpen arms in AAA this year. Next year will be their time to shine. Considering our starting pitching I am ok with our bullpen getting young.

      As for Bastardo, I think we should bring back Lidge as insurance. I am pretty sure he won’t be getting any huge offers elsewhere which means we should be able to get him cheaply. He can then become an affordable emergency option in case we have closer issues.

       
  • Posts: 220 The Dipsy

    Avatar of The Dipsy

    Hey Eric – you never played sports, I guess. But you’re a whiz with a calculator and a protractor, I’ll bet. Some players do bring something bigger than the sum of their talents to a team. Sometimes a young team needs a vet, sometimes a tight team needs someone loose, etc. But these guys also have to have the talent, too. Pence gives them something they didn’t have. A hard core pro team, maybe a tad stale, that gets an infusion of youthful exuberance. That could be Pence. But mostly, he’s a good righty hitting in back of Howard. Chemistry counts for a lot.

    Madson is gone, baby, gone. Pence or no Pence.

    The Dipsy

     
    • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

      Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

      I don’t always agree with the Dipsy, however this post sums it up perfectly. This also goes back to the last guy we had in RF last season. We had no chance of signing him anyway. Would you rather thave Werth or Pence? Just saying. He brings things to the team that can be measured on the diamond, but ALSO things that can NOT be measured on the diamond. Well put Dipsy!

       
 
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