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Poll: Rollins or Madson More Important?

Posted by Pat Gallen, Sat, October 22, 2011 01:35 PM | Comments: 70
Analysis, News, Poll, Posts

It’s a simple question, but one without an easy answer. Which player is more important to the Phillies – Jimmy Rollins or Ryan Madson? Both are about to become free agents and both will test the waters to see what each can achieve on the open market.

Some will say shortstop is the thinnest position in baseball; and Rollins keeps that position from being an issue for the Phillies.

Others will argue that, while closers are abundant in this current market, Madson is a known commodity and is still well in his prime. He’s also just scratching the surface of being a ninth-inning guy.

Rollins is an every-day player. Madson, obviously, is not. But the bullpen is now a glaring need for the Phillies.

Rollins will be 33 in 2012; Madson 31.

Who do you go with?

Who is more important to the Phillies?

View Results

Avatar of Pat Gallen

About Pat Gallen

Pat Gallen has written 1684 articles on Phillies Nation.

Pat is Editor-in-Chief of Phillies Nation. He also covers the Phils for 97.5 FM in Philly.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 phil

    Compare the war of a ss to the war of a Bullpen pitcher and that says it all…rollins is more important.

     
  • Posts: 993 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    I would like to get what you mean that the bull pen is a dire need now for the phillies, sure they had some lapses near the end of they season, but Bastardo and Stutes with a full year under their belts now know more what it takes to get through 162. And sure he is 100 years old but The Big Truck will be back next year, and as much as you all like to bash him KK showed some promise coming out of the pen. I think more importently is a second lefty out of the pen. I expect Bastardo to make big strides going into next year. Compare how he did with his control from 2010 to 2011. Bull pen peices are easier to find than a gold glove caliber SS. Sure he wants five years, but if you pay him he will take 3 plus a performace option for a fourth.. JRoll is far more importent if you can only keep one, and the most importent is extending Hamels.

     
    • Posts: 1435 Pat Gallen

      Avatar of Pat Gallen

      There are several maybes in the bullpen. If Madson leaves, there are even more. Stutes, Herndon, Contreras, Schwimer, etc. Except for Bastardo, there are a lot of unknowns. And in watching the Cardinals and Rangers, you can see that the bullpen was a strength that helped them get to the World Series. The Phillies never really had more than 2 guys you could totally count on throughout the year. At times, some of the guys were very good, but it wasn’t consistent except for Bastardo/Madson for much of the year.

       
      • Posts: 5229 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        I don’t know much about the Rangers BP, but the Cardinals are a perfect example of bullpen by committee so to say. 75% of them are minimum salaries too. (6 of 8) 84 year old Arthur Rhodes and Dotel who they’ve only had for two months, are the only one’s making good money. Madson is just not that important to me.

         
      • Posts: 5229 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Don’t know where the smiley face with sunglasses came from- meant to say-
        (6 of 8 ) Then new sentence about Rhodes.

         
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    Madson is way more of a commodity then Rollins… Name a better closer in the Phillies organization?? No one is a better closer then Madson, and with 10 aces, we still need a good closer!!

     
  • Posts: 993 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    The Cardnails bull pen was put together during the year, the Phillies went into 2011 with a ton of questions in the bull pen, and they had a pretty good year, I may be mistaken but I think they were in the top three in ERA. There is a few more bull pen peices you can find that would not be that expensive. How many SS that are even close to JRoll available. You lose JRoll how you going to fill that hole. You lose Madson there are more than a few options that would be available. I know RAJ said they would sign a closer, but I would really not have any porblem with going into April with Bastardo, Contreous viaing for the closer spot. Madson is going to cost a ton, there are pleanty of teams that are going to pay Madson ala Wreth contract, there are still a ton of stupid teams that want to spend money, so is 5 years and 11-13 million a year to close for them. Maybe two maybe three teams that will even sniff four or five years for JRoll. There is no way Madson is more importent than JRoll

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    To me this line up seriously needs an over haul and shake up.

    The easiest way to accomlish this is simply do not resign Rollins.
    Now if he comes to you and you can get him cheap you can do it.

    Thats fine. But then you have to shake things up by moving/trading some of the other older sacred cows.

     
    • Posts: 1190 Manny

      Avatar of Manny

      I agree… If you wanna shake things up a little offensively, you gotta try new things… Madson is the priority for a team that wants to get younger and stronger.

       
  • Posts: 39 landshark

    Avatar of landshark

    I’d be really torn to see either Rollins or Madson in another uniform (Jimmy especially), but Rollins brings more to the table with his leadership than Madson does

     
  • Posts: 31 Gavin

    Avatar of Gavin

    Ofcourse I would like to see them both next year. I don’t know who I’d choose. There’s samething to say for both of them. Rollins is a great ballplayer and does a lot off the field. And Madson may be an even better closer as Rollins is a shortstop, but he does less off the field. I don’t know who to choose, but I’d be happy already if one of them is in a Phillies shirt next year.

     
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    I voted Rollins because I think his “heart and soul” approach is what this team needs. There are not that many good options to replace him and Galvis isn’t ready. That said, he can walk away if he finds a better deal elsewhere and we’ll be just fine. In fact, Madson can walk too if some team decides they want to overpay for a closer with only one year as a closer under his belt.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    @ Gavin at some point you cannot just keep bringing everyone back.
    This lineup has been dysfuntional for a long time.

    To be honest im not worried if either player signs somewhere else.
    But I am also a person who was ok with Lee being traded to Seattle.
    And a person who didnt get overly excited when he signed with the Phillies last off season.

    There is not a player on the roster who I would not deal to better the team.

    As Branch Rickey said. Its better to trade a player a year to soon than a year to late.

    I want minimum 3 new everyday offensive players. And First base and howard being out doesnt count as one of them. LF 3B and either 2b or SS makes the most sense.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Wanting and getting are two different things. Left field will have to be a new player, because there’s no one there at all right now with Mayberry likely starting the year at 1st and Francisco #4 or lower on the depth chart. Utley is at a low point value-wise, as is Polanco; Howard’s contract is not affordable by any team except the two that already have 1st basemen locked up. Pence is already a new player. That doesn’t leave much to work with, really, only Victorino, Ruiz, and the pitching staff. I don’t suppose you’d like to see Halladay go.

      Two positions may be different by default, because Rollins will depart and there’s almost no way Ibanez will be in left. But I don’t see three position changes because right now there’s no good way to make that happen.

       
      • Posts: 39 landshark

        Avatar of landshark

        Don’t forget we have Scott Podsednik in AAA. He could possibly be a dark horse this Spring

         
    • Posts: 993 betasigmadeltashag

      Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

      you want to shake up the offense with LF the only everyday position player that is not signed to a deal that will make them hard to trade. And you are going to take a .260 hitter out of it that can run the bases steal 20-30 bases a year and put in who? Glavis so you get .230 maybe 250 hitter that is a rookie. If they can find a true utility guy that can hit .260 with some pop to spell the Utley, and Poly then maybe the injuries will not show up as much. also can ;you all lay off the Howard extension, he was hurt this year almost all year and still had 30 HRs and 120 RBIs say what you want about his playoff run he obviously was playing on one leg, or foot. If they do not rush him back and he takes his rehab seriously, which with his work ethic to get into better shape should not be questioned, He may have a monster second half next year, and be in better health come playoff time.

       
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Anf if the new guys are hungry and athletic and in their early to mid twenties.
    Id be really excited.

     
  • Posts: 0 George

    Neither position can be filled easily, at least this year, and that’s the biggest problem. There may be a “glut” of closers out there, but there are also a lot of teams in need of one. It’ll be more of a shuffling around, kind of like, “I’ll take your closer and you can have mine.” Remember, we’re not talking about lefty specialists and middle relief here.

    And for the upcoming year, there is absolutely nothing worth bothering with available at short, with the possible exception of Reyes. I say “possible” because he’s more injury prone than Rollins and will sign a contract the Phils can’t afford. The Phils lose Rollins and they’ll be stuck with a has-been or ne’er -do-well unless they trade away even more of the farm system.

    I’d hate to be in Amaro’s shoes right now, so I’m not going to vote. Both the players are important, but there are budget considerations, team chemistry considerations, fan perceptions, and other things also at stake.

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    I agree with the whole shaking up theory. However, Rollins is the best hitter and i just got a feeling Galvis is going to be another Mini Mart with the bat. Why not sign him put Mini Mart in AAA give Galvis some MLB experience then trade J-Roll when the time is right. We still have one more good run year next year and I would like to see J-Roll there. Our bullpen is a dire need as well. Stutes was extremely shaky last 6 weeks or so. So that leaves, Stutes, Bastardo, Contreras, Herndon, Kendrick. We need another guy that we know we can trust to put out the fire if needed. Herndon seems to have a few good games then he implodes for a few more. We dont know how Contreras will come back and obviously at his age he is concern. We dont know if the first half for Stutes was a fluke. I believe in that Game Lee lost Cholly left him in there because he didnt want to go to the Pen so early. In honesty if Lee would of been taking out we wouldnt be blaming Lee but castrating Cholly. This is assuming whomever he bought in to replace Lee would of gave up runs. You would of heard he took out one of the best pitchers in the league for XYZ. If Madson walks i wouldnt have a problem signing one of the other available top relievers until we know what we have with Stutes and Schwimer and whatever other minor leaguer.

     
  • Posts: 222 tavian

    Avatar of tavian

    I predict that the Phillies will say goodbye to both Rollins and Madson in 2010, and will say hello to Clint Barmes at shortstop, who will perform better than Rollins. Also, the Phils will introduce a new closer and we will all forget about both Rollins and Madson by July 1, 2010.
    David de Jesus will be our left fielder. We will save money and continue winning. Mayberry will grow into a super sub. And we will land Wilson Betemit in free agency and he will find playing time at both third and shortstop, and hit very well, thank you.

     
  • Posts: 427 Publius

    Avatar of Publius

    Effective bullpens can be made on the cheap, just check out the Rays this year. The whole concept of a “closer mentality” and things like that are total BS. There’s talent out there, and Bastardo could move into the closer role should worse come to worse.

    Shortstops on the other hand, especially above league average, are few and far between in this market. As a result, Rollins is a lot more valuable than Madson, simply because he is harder to replace.

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    Tavia its 2011 you had my head scratching. Publius i agree with you i still would like to have that one guy that can come in and shut the door 90% of the time.

     
  • Posts: 1 glenn

    Avatar of glenn

    if Rollins settles for a three year contact then keep him, if not Madson’s my choice

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    Considering what they’re both gonna want in terms of years and money, I don’t really much think about it because they’re both gone. Heath Bell will be our closer. There….done. And Galvis can play short. He’s already a stud fielder. 4/40/.240 in the 8 hole? Fine. Thats because Ruben is gonna put some major O somewhere else. Then our lineup will look a bit more orthodox as opposed to needing power out of the middle infield and nothing from LF etc.

    The Dipsy

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Heath Bell might not be the closer. He seems to want to stay in San Diego. The only difference between Bell and Madson will be contract length, not $$.

      Bell is also older than Madson, and might be starting on the downside of his career.

      Amaro’s first choice, I’m thinking, will be Madson. If that proves prohibitive, there’s no telling about Plan B. There are other names out there.

       
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Will Rollins agree to bat 8th as part of the deal?
    He hasnt been a lead off hitter for a long time.
    The phillies need one.

    Jimmy with his glove hitting 8th is worth 3 yrs 30 to me.

    I just dont want him hitting lead off anymore.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      8th is a little too far down, if you ask me, and will effectively eliminate Rollins’ speed from the lineup. While I agree that he’s not the optimum lead-off man, I’ve yet to see any Phil do any better when given the chance. Victorino, maybe. But he’s not the base-stealing threat that Rollins is, and has also been somewhat inconsistent at the top of the order (in fact Victorino is streaky no matter where he bats).

      This, of course, all hinges on whether Rollins even comes back next season.

       
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Thats 3 bombs for Pujos.

    Just think if RAJ hadnt extended Howard.

    The Phillies would be the leading bidder on Pujos and would probably have him.

    :) Just sayin

    Have to enjoy what you have.

     
    • Posts: 0 JMills

      I still want Pujos and play him at third. I think he would be an average third baseman an d can live with that.

       
    • Posts: 5229 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Pujols will get a monster deal somewhere. And someone will have fun for 3 or 4 years and then regret the next 6 or 7. I predict it will be the Yankees as they can absorb the regrettable portion the best. Texiera or ARod can DH, they have room for Pujols.

       
    • Posts: 0 George

      “Just think, if RAJ hadn’t…”

      I just did think. I thought of the Phils losing Howard completely and winding up in a gigantic bidding war over Pujols, probably to the tune of 10 years $300 million. I thought of them losing that war and having to sign some other team’s non-tender to play 1st.

       
      • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

        @ George
        The Phils losing Howard?

        LOL

        Unimaginable

        You would pay anyone $15,000,000.00 for him to just leave.
        You would save $10,000,000.00 then.

        And youd sign any functioning player to play first for $10,000,000.00

        You could not be in any war bidding or otherwise that would screw your team as much as Howards contract.

        116 RBI LOLOLOLOLOL

        The fans make me laugh.

        Was any other team even going to pay him 10 million?
        NO
        But bring them all back and pay the first baseman 25,000,000.00$

        10 years 300 million? LOLOLOL

        Your man is hear for 5 years $125,000,000.00

        Rest assured when its 3-0 and your down a run he will be swinging away.
        And a few of those times he will hit the ball 1000 feet.
        Happy happy joy joy
        You dont get hero staus taking walks.

         
    • Posts: 0 George

      As usual, in your hatred of the Howard contract you totally misinterpreted my response.

      If Amaro had not extended Howard, there is no way to say that the Phils would now have Pujols–there ARE other rich teams that would offer just as much for Pujols as the Phils could. He’s probably looking for 10 years $300 million, and although he probably won’t get that much, it’ll no doubt be close. If the Phils didn’t extend Howard (Yes, even I’ll admit it was for too long and for too much) they could easily be stuck signing someone of such meager talent that everyone would be crucifying Amaro.

      Pujols at a measly $280 million is still WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than Howard; and if it’s for ten years, those last five could be even worse than the next five with Ryan manning 1st.

       
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    AWF – Jimmy gets hurt. All the time. He won’t bat eighth so who are we kidding and he won’t come back for 3/30. Its a pipe dream. Its time for Jimmy to go. He wants a raise at 33 when he hasn’t really performed in three years? Not in my world. Go. Go see who is gonna give you 5 years, oh excuse me…4 years with YOUR option for a fifth. Three years and 3y/24.5m.

    The Dipsy

    Freakin Pujols.

     
  • Posts: 5229 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    I’d give Jimmy 3/30-team option, but he would never bat eighth. I think he will get something close to the deal he wants elsewhere. The reality is they are both gone, and that’s not such a terrible thing. IMO- Turnover is inevitable, and if handled correctly, can be a very good thing.

    I have faith in RAJ to slowly infuse some youth and keep us competitive for a couple more years.

    Freakin Pujols.

     
  • Posts: 0 davehist

    I would sign Rollins for three years; hopefully, his demand for five is just a bargaining position. I doubt that there are teams out there that would sign him for five, at his age and with his injury history, but you never know. I would very much like to keep Madson, but with Scott Boras that’s very unlikely. We shall see.

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    1. Let Jimmy and Ryan go.
    2. Sign Jaime Carroll.
    3. Move Utley in a deal that involves an average to above average second or third baseman.
    4. Sign Heath Bell.
    5. Trade Brown, Worley, and LA’s pick of anyone else for Matt Kemp.
    6. Trade for Emilo Benafacio.

    Benafacio
    Polanco
    Kemp
    Howard (cuz Charlie won’t bat him anywhere else)
    Pence
    Shane
    Ruiz
    Carroll

    Done.

    The Dipsy

     
    • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

      Brown, Worley, and a prospect won’t get Kemp at this point. A year ago? Maybe. Not now though…

       
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    I still say that if Rollins can be convinced to slide over to third in 2013 when Galvis is really ready that you’ve solved a lot of things. Rollins stays a Phillie, which is important for a variety of reasons which have been gone over ad nauseum on here. Moving to third base solves the need for someone after next year when Polanco is gone. And…..it extends his career a la A Rod and Ripken.

    Question and problem is…..Will Rollins agree to do it? And I say he either refuses or does it begrudgingly, which isn’t good either.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Babe Ruth
    Reggie Jacskson
    Ryan Howard

    Oh I mean Albert Pujos.

    Is this the fun we are having till 2016 Lefty?

    Lefty there is a team option for
    $23,000,000.00

    In 2017

    Happy happy joy joy
    2016

    Can we extend 2017 any time soon?

    He will hit at least ONE ball 100 miles this year.

    Did you ever know he is my hero?

     
    • Posts: 5229 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Correct, we will not have any fun.

      We are stuck with the guy that gets laughed at on the field ( in a most unprofessional way) in front of 47,000 of our own fans and however many millions on TV, because Punto and Carpenter just could not believe he swung at the pitch when all they were trying to do was pitch around him. They, like most of us, could not believe that he had a green light when we needed 2 runs, not 1 to win the game.

      My post said that whoever signed Pujols to an 8 to 10 year deal will have fun for 3 or 4 years, and then regret it, the Steroid era is over.

      I never mentioned our first baseman.

       
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    The Dodgers don’t have any money.

    The Dipsy

     
    • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

      That doesn’t mean they’ll give one of the top 5 players in the game for unproven talent.

       
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    Chuck…then we just have a poor hitting, injury prone third baseman.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Bottom line 2011 and 2012 are the years to compete.
    They already blew 2010 2011.

    So its all in.

    But dont fret
    There is a club option for 2017.

    So when Halladay and Lee are 55 and 63 respectively Howard can bring it all home.
    You cant find a hero every day. But we have ours.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Seriously
    He swings 3-0 down a run in the 7th why?

    He hits a homer hes a hero.

    You guys wouldnt love him as much if he walks and there is a double play for the next batter.

    He HAS to swing there

    And I get to read about the tears and people cant believe the best team lost.

    Well honestly you arent the best.
    You are searching for your hero and hes already here.
    Next year when you dont make the playoffs will you still think you are the best team?

     
  • Posts: 0 Lewis

    If you have to pick one guy to stay ing philly its gotta be j-roll. Look at Chih Kuo the Los Angelas Dodgers. Phillies Fans should remember him he is most likely not going to stay in LA. And wecould also go after Ryan Doumit catcher back-up for ruiz we cant keep Brian. Plus he can play outfield corner positions and first base but not Shortstop. We need rollins he has been with us for 15 years since 1996 thats a long time he knows how this team should be running. No one knows this team like him he knows when we need to make decisions and he knows how to shut-down hitters. I vote Rollins

     
  • Posts: 0 LuckyNucky

    Phillies are in a Catch-22 with JRoll. After him and Reyes, there is no other SS. You can always get a Closer, Bell is available. This all started with Ryan and his mega-contract. That Contract caused the lock-up of obtaining clutch available power hitters. We let Jose Bautista get away. That was both our 3rd Baseman and clutch hitter.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Wait
    The first baseman can walk on 4 balls?

    I really expect him to swing at ball 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10

    Otherwise the Chucks dont have a hero?

    Or if you can imagine ball 25,000,000

    Swing batter batter

    You dont become a hero taking walks.

     
    • Posts: 993 betasigmadeltashag

      Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

      AFW you really need to get back on your meds. You are such a loser when it comes to bashing one guy, and all you do is say the same stupid thing over and over. Is Howard’s contract a to long or for too much maybe, maybe not. The guy was playing on one leg almost all year. And sure he swung three -0, but he swung a good pitch that would have been a strike and just missed it, it was the only strike he was going to get, Should he have taken the pitch maybe but it is not a given, especially on this team and how this team is managed. If it was an unhittable pitch and popped out or fouled it weakly or hit a three hopper to the pitcher, then maybe I could see your point. They need one run to tie the game in the 7th that is it, and yes he gets paid to hit home runs, would I like to see hime walk more sure. But with your constant stupid rambaling about the same thing over and over it has stopped being entertaining. Get back to the pharmacy and get your meds. Hopefully that will help

       
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    AFW…. Just for the record, Ryan Howard is not, never was and never will be my “hero”.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    @ Chuck unfortunately Chuck is alot easier to type than the persons name right above you.
    You will have to stand in for all the fans.

    Of which there are alot who will do the novel right above your post.

    They think hes a good player. The most feared in baseball.
    If you traded him for a duffle bag they would cry.
    They want 5 prospects for him.

    He sucks. He is terrible. Probably the biggest liabilty in sports.
    He cant play baseball. He can drive in 25,000,000 runs next year and he still sucks.

    And the hero worshipers will write novels about injuries and bad legs.

    The constant stupid ramblings by the guy right above you are why he swings away and stands 4 feet from the plate.

    Holding out for a hero.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Talk about a novel! What about your own post?

      I suppose it’s acceptable, though, because it’s just another sequel to a sequel to a sequel…

      It’s acceptable because (at least in your OWN mind) it’s very witty and clever.

      It’s also acceptable because you’re too lazy to copy and paste the name of the man you’ve aimed this latest obnoxious, juvenile, and redundant chapter at.

       
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Do you understand his value on any level?
    The Phillies will have to eat 75% of his contract at some point.

    No one will take him.
    He is a less than zero.
    You couldnt give him away for nothing.

    No one else will pay his contract. Not even half of it.
    You trade him with 5 prospects so someone will eat the contract.
    But no one will. NO ONE

    OK Ive tried to not talk down to the stupid for awhile.
    I understand they will always be stupid.
    They do not understand.
    He is the best and so are the Phillies.

    Carry on
    You cant fix stupid. And I gave up long ago trying.

     
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    betasigma…..respectfully, Ryan Howard SHOULD have taken that pitch on 3-0. No “maybes” about it.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      I disagree. A slugger is instructed to look for a pitch to hit no matter what the count. There’s not one of us alive who knows whether that pitch appeared from a batter’s viewpoint to be one he could drive. It could have been, and he just missed it; even Pujols misses some; evn Aaron, even Ruth. The discussion of swinging 3-0 wouldn’t even be brought up if Howard had sent that pitch into one of the power alleys.

       
      • Posts: 5229 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Baseball is a game of situation and timing. Last night Albert Pujols had 3 home runs and 2 singles. Guess what? The two singles came when leading off the 4th and 5th inning. The home runs all came when batting 4th in the 6th and 7th innings, and batting 3rd in the ninth. This man and his manager understand the game of baseball.

        Ryan Howard was the leadoff hitter, his job at that time and situation was to take the walk if the pitcher was willing to give it to him. And Carpenter tried his best to pitch around him, yes he gave him a pitch he could hit, but had no intention of giving him another one. He couldn’t believe his eyes when Howard swung at that one. That’s why he and Punto were laughing at their incredible good fortune, in front of 47,000 fans and lord knows how many others on TV, right there on the field. Very very unprofessional, but I understood it.

         
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    On a serious note.
    The sad part about all this is

    HE WANTS HIM TO SWING THERE

    And thats why he did.

    You wanted him to swing. Charlie wanted him to swing. Someone OKed it.

    And you lose. And you want to bring the same group back next year. All of them.

    And youll say how did they lose again. As the best team.

    You made a post justifying the swing.

    A human being in the world thinks its ok he swung there and condones it.

    I give.

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    Yup. Charlie coulda taken the green light off and didn’t. I remember sitting at the bar, transfixed, hoping against hope, when he swung. I wanted to punch the guy next to me in the face just because he was the guy closest to me. I looked around the bar to see if anybody was aghast as I at what had just occurred. Everyone one was drunk and just yelled “shit” or moaned. Nobody had realized the significance, the flogging of baseball common sense, the malfeasance committed by Manuel and Howard. But at that very moment, I also realized that because they could actually play like that, that they weren’t good enough to win and weren’t gonna win. Not this year. I will say this though: Howard should have nailed that pitch to kingdom come because it was right…in…his…wheelhouse. But fukit now.

    The Dipsy

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    I knew it. Dipsy knew it. AFW knew it. All of the Phillies fans in the Delaware Valley and across Phillies Nation in general knew it.. And, yes, even Charlie Manuel knew that Ryan Howard SHOULD NOT have swung at that pitch. But Charlie….and I love him, I really, really do …..was too effin stubborn to take the green light off. Why? Who knows.

     
  • Posts: 0 George

    I can see different results:

    Howard walks on 3-0, or if the pitch is called a strike, 3-1. The next player grounds into a double play. The third pops up.

    Or how about: Howard takes strike one. He grounds out on strike two.

    Nobody was hitting. Why blame it all on Howard? He didn’t make all 27 outs by swinging 3-0.

     
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    George….I agree with your statement about a slugger being “instructed to look for a pitch to hit no matter what the count” in theory….but….in this case, with the season on the line and the Phillies getting NOTHING from their O, he should have taken. Even Chris Carpenter knew it and was surprised given his reaction (Of course, Carpenter really shouldn’t have reacted that way as it was a bit of showing up the battter on his part.)

    By the way, good to have you back on here. Your opinions, dialogue and insight are very welcomed on this blog.

     
  • Posts: 2993 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    As a matter of fact, I might have instructed him to take on 3-1 as well. Carpenter was all over the place in that at-bat.

     
  • Posts: 993 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    first I am not saying he definatley should have swug, my point was he did swing, but it was a pitch he could hit, and who knows 3-1 takes anoter strike or swings at a ball in the dirt low and outside 3-2, my point being if he had to swing at least he swung at a strike. And really how the offense was hitting that day, you would need a homer or a triple to get him in from first, it was going to take two more hits to score him even if he did walk. It is the monday morening quarterbacking that bugs me, most of you on here would have the guts to say the next day, “I was ready to throw my remote throgh the TV when Ryan swung at that pitch, he got a hit but it does not justify swinging there. wher AFW just would have ranted on how m;uch money he makes and that he sucks. That was the point, he flew out so he sucks, he hits a HR and that was just luck because he should not have swung at the pitch. Just like getting on CHase for getting caught stealing second, he was thrown out so it was a bad play, but me personally, I want them to be more agresive on the base paths so I can not complain when it does not work out

     
  • Posts: 993 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    Also I mentioned that he swung because that is how this teams plays, that is how Charlie Manages. I did not ever say he should have swung the bat, I do not think he should have swung but the make up of this team is that if he gets a pitch to hit, hit it, they pay him to drive in runs and hit HR. He is not Albert, he is not a 300 hitter. weather I agree with the philosophy or not, it is the managment’s thought pattern.

     
  • Posts: 5229 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    Beta you are correct, it is the fault of the management of this team, it’s the way they are taught to play. Charlie said after the game that Howard had the green light. We blame the players sometimes when we shouldn’t. My one and only point is what I have said for two years, that when you are hitting leadoff, (as clean up hitters often do) and your team needs two runs, you are no longer the slugger, you have to adjust your role. To repeat what I wrote earlier;

    Baseball is a game of situation and timing. Last night Albert Pujols had 3 home runs and 2 singles. Guess what? The two singles came when leading off the 4th and 5th inning. The home runs came when batting fourth in the 6th, and 7th innings, and then when batting third in the 9th inning. This man and his manager understand the game of baseball.

     
  • Posts: 79 branderson925

    Avatar of branderson925

    I think it’s gotta be J-Roll. I know I have a personal affectation for him since he’s been a part of this team longer than any other man (And I think he’s pretty up there as far as longest tenured player for the same team)

    Leadership and Defense are huge. We can always find another closer. Yes I know maybe nto quite like Madson but closers are so up and down. We get at least one certain with Rollins, amazing D and a better bat than 2/3 of the SS out there. I love Mad-Dog but I like Rollins a whole lot more. Would hate to see him go but still I will be pissed if he gets 5 years. That would be absurd.

    GO PHILS

     
  • Posts: 1190 Manny

    Avatar of Manny

    That 3-0 swing by Howard was what really made me realize we weren’t going to win that game… it was the nail in the coffin, even though there were 2 more innings left.

     
  • [...] Player Review 2011: Ryan MadsonOdds and Ends: Kuo, Doumit"Continued Success" Hoodies from PhilavaniaPoll: Rollins or Madson More Important?Dr. Strangeglove: There But For the Grace of GodWill David Herndon be a Bullpen Mainstay?What [...]

     
  • [...] Player Review 2011: Ryan MadsonOdds and Ends: Kuo, Doumit"Continued Success" Hoodies from PhilavaniaPoll: Rollins or Madson More Important?Dr. Strangeglove: There But For the Grace of GodWill David Herndon be a Bullpen Mainstay? Michael [...]

     
 
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