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Jim Thome Returns to Philadelphia

Posted by Amanda Orr, Fri, November 04, 2011 07:22 PM | Comments: 71
Acquisitions, Posts

Thome Returns to Philly (Photo: AP)

Pull out the old jersey; a familiar face is back in red pinstripes.

MLB.com Phillies beat writer Todd Zolecki announced that the Phillies have agreed to a one-year deal with Jim Thome.  Pending a physical on Saturday, the deal is expected to be around $1.25 million.

During the 2002-2003 offseason, Thome was the biggest name on the market.  The Phillies opened the bank and signed Thome to a six-year, $85 million deal.  The acquisition of Thome brought a lot of excitement and anticipation to the Philadelphia region.

This year’s addition of Thome may not create that same excitement, but it makes sense for the Phillies and Thome.  In perhaps his final season, Thome will get a shot at his first World Series championship.  Serving as a designated hitter, Thome has not had a defensive appearance since 2007, but it is possible he could see time at first base with the injury to Ryan Howard.  Regardless, Thome serves as a powerful left-handed bat off the bench. 

Thome played three seasons with the Phillies from 2003-2005.  Thome was traded to the White Sox in exchange for Aaron Rowand, Gio Gonzalez, and two minor leaguers.  During his tenure in Philly, Thome batted .260 with 96 home runs.

One of Thome’s most memorable moments with the Phillies was his 400th career home run.  Thome hit his 600th last season with the Minnesota Twins.  He is only four away from his 100th home run with the Phillies.

Thome, now 41, will reunite with Charlie Manuel, who has been a mentor to him.  Manuel managed Thome in both Cleveland and Philadelphia, and the two have maintained a close relationship.

It may not be the biggest signing for the Phillies this offseason, but it is a start.  Thome has always been well-liked in the City of Brotherly Love, and it’s great to have him back whether he fills in at first, pinch hits, or simply provides a leadership role in the clubhouse.

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About Amanda Orr

Amanda Orr has written 713 articles on Phillies Nation.

Amanda has been writing for Phillies Nation since 2009.

 
 
  • Posts: 443 Ian Riccaboni

    Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

    First Pete Orr, now Jim Thome! This is like X-Mas!

     
  • Posts: 385 Publius

    Avatar of Publius

    YESSSSSSS. WELCOME BACK TO THE LAND OF CHEESED STEAKS JI

    JIM THOME

     
  • Posts: 0 John

    Jim Salisbury is reporting the deal is worth $1.25 Million and that’s it’s pending a physical which will take place tomorrow.

    Wanted Thome back, and now he is. Extremely happy right now.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chris

    This is a great move by the Phillies. He should provide a very nice bench bat and he’s only costing a little over a million. This is exactly the type of small move that helps solidify teams with championship aspirations

     
  • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Awesome move!! Shame that they couldn’t get him for the stretch drive this past season but this move makes sense in so many ways.

     
  • Posts: 548 Brian Sr. of CO

    Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

    Sorry folks, but for $1.25 this was not a good deal…This was a PHENOMINAL DEAL! Start the season at 1b giving Howard time to make sure he is 100% healthy, and an overall devent bat coming off the bench! Sure he is 41 years old, but for a bench bat, and a temp fill with some pop left in his bat, he is still a threat. The real kicker here is he will be making less than Ross Gload and Brian Schneider, and barely more than Ben Fran.

     
  • Posts: 0 Ryan H

    I’ll be shocked if Thome has more than 5 homers next year for the phillies. honestly. Michael Martinez might hit more homers than thome next year.

     
    • Posts: 0 Chris

      Are you talking about the Michael Martinez who only had one more homer than cliff lee did last year

       
      • Posts: 548 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        LOL. Thats a far better comparison. Cliff Lee 2 homers in 75 at bats, Mini Mart 3 homers in 209 At bats. LOL.

         
    • Posts: 548 Brian Sr. of CO

      Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

      LOL. Haven’t watched to much baseball have you? I would be extremely suprised if Thome didn’t hit more Homers than Mini Mart. You think Martinez, who hit 3 homers in 209 at bats will hit more than Thome who hit 3 homers for Cleveland in 71 at bats? He might not hit 5 homers, but it is probably a safe bet he will hit more than Mini Mart. No one (with half a brain I should say) expects Thome to come in as a bench player (who might be starting at first depending on Howards return) expects 30 home runs , or even 15 homers for a bench player, but he definitaly has more power than Mini Mart. 5 homers is not too much to be surprised about. I would be very surprised if he didn;t have more Homers than Mini Mart.

       
  • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Psssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

    That’s the sound of air coming out of a balloon that was just popped by Ryan H.

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    Meh, Thome is great but as his age. Can he even play defense at this point ? Im gathering then that Gload isnt coming back then.

     
    • Posts: 0 Chris

      It’s not like we’re signing him to be the everyday first baseman. He can’t be any worse at defense than bad hip Gload would be. But Thome provides a better bat and more power of the bench. I’d imagine Thome will get some starts while Howard is hurt but I don’t expect that it will be for that long of a stretch. He might start 10 games at first over the course of the season so his defense won’t matter all that much. But he’s a pinch hitter that can and will be used in pretty much every game in the season as long as he’s healthy.

       
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    Welcome back big guy! I am a Ryan Howard fan but I still missed Big Jim all this time.

    I guess this deal clearly shows where Jim really wanted to be when he was traded to Cleveland. We just got a real weapon off the bench for almost nothing. We still got plenty to deal with our other issues. Plus, it really helps to lift the spirits of us Phillies fans who are still crushed by the way our season ended. Ruben has lots more to do but this was a great start.

    I am fully aware we are not getting the Jim Thome we had back when he was originally with us but I think he can give us the impact off the bench we lost when Stairs left plus give Howard the occasional day off. I really think he will have a solid year this year coming back to a place that still loves him and playing once again for Charlie.

     
  • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Ross Gload had 0 HR in 2011 and 6 in 2010 for the Phillies in 113 and 128 ABs respectively.
    Matt Stairs had 6 HR in 2010 with the Padres in 99 ABs and 5 in 2009 with the Phillies in 103 ABs.

    I think it’s fair to say that Jim Thome is an upgrade in that category. I would imagine that he gets AT LEAST 150 ABs with the Phillies. He had 277 and 276 ABs the last two seasons with 15 and 25 HRs in each season. My guess is that he hits between 5 and 10 for the Phillies in a PH/DH/maybe occasional 1B for the Phillies in 2012.

     
    • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

      Avatar of Chuck A.

      And that is more than Michael Martinez will have.

       
      • Posts: 548 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        Oh come on, it is fair to think that Mini Mart will get another 209 At Bats this season, and 10 home runs…Isn’t it? LOL. Point out and say he won’t hit as many as Matt Stairs in 2008, I could say maybe, but hit less than Mini Mart? I would be beyond surprised.

         
  • Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks

    So much for getting older.

    Seriously, with only 13-14 position players I am not a fan of having a PH only player.

     
    • Posts: 548 Brian Sr. of CO

      Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

      What exactly would you call Ross Gload? A Plattoon player? In 2010 Gload played a whopping 26 games and 2011 played an astounding 23 games in the field! I can’t seem to really find a huge downside to pay Thome LESS money than we were paying gload to get more than likely get the same level if not more. I highly doubt that they signed Thome to never play the field. Granted, he has only played the field once since 2007, but I would have to agree with Chris, could he be worse in the field than Gload with a bad hip? If we get the same fielding, and an upgrade at the plate, how can it be a bad thing?

       
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    I keep checking the date and it keeps saying November 4th.
    It isnt April first?

    I am guessing this means Gload isnt an option anymore.

    Its a moot move for me. If he contributes great and if he doesnt you lose nothing.

    As for his first time here I wasn’t a huge fan. He was a stat complier. Hmmm do do the Phillies have any of those around already?

     
    • Posts: 1105 betasigmadeltashag

      Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

      it is always nice to hear for mte ahpy go lucky AFW. Why not just stay away, JT is a big improvment over Gload if you do not see that you need to go back to your basement and leave us alone

       
  • Posts: 0 Chris

    MLB trade rumors says the Phils are in serious pursuit of Cuddyer. I’m not sure I’m all that happy about that. He would be an expensive piece and be the next Raul I think. He hits lefties really well but plays defense poorly at all his positions. He will get a 3 year 30 mill deal at least. A deal like that would mean the end of J Roll or Madson or maybe both and if you ask me I think the money would be better spent on one of those two or someone to replace them. We have Victorino, Pence and Mayberry/Brown for the OF we don’t need to pay 10 mill per to Cuddyer to be a super sub

     
  • Posts: 555 Bruce

    Avatar of Bruce

    Welcome back Gentleman Jim.

    As you should know, Thome is a great addition to the clubhouse and with his presence should bring the best out of all his teammates. We also know that Manuel has a fatherly pride in Thome as a result of those past years with him coaching him on hitting. Manuel will know how to use Thome in key situations coming off the bench and subbing at 1B while Howard is recovering.

    It was very nice gesture on GM Amaro’s part in bringing back Thome to Phillies and Manuel. Next season will very likely be Thome’s farewell tour with the club and hopefully he will have a celebration like no other when the season concludes with a World Series Championship in Philly.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Before you guys get to excited.
    The Mets just signed Bobby Bonilla.
    So the division just got that much tougher.

     
  • Posts: 0 the ghost of luis aguayo

    Phuck yeah! Does Thome even have a glove anymore? Who cares he’s still better than Gload.

     
  • Posts: 2002 Brooks

    Avatar of Brooks

    It is nice to see Gentle Jim back in Philly but, what issues does this answer? Yes, the price is definitely right..

    I believe in the past couple of years he has spent exactly no more than 28 innings defensively at first base which of course then limits his already limited capabilities for the Phils. He cannot play first, he is definitely prone to the elongated slump but then again, this is the great Jim Thome, headed to the HOF.

    Don’t expect to see much of him other than in a Pinch Hitting role, maybe 120-150 atbats for the season?

     
  • Posts: 30 Gavin

    Avatar of Gavin

    This only makes me even more want next season to start now

     
  • Posts: 0 Brian Michael

    Thome’s leadership has been mentioned but what about his hitting knowledge? That alone should be a nice addition that might help keep player slumps short.

    The rotation has that all-star comraderie, the bats should too. I think Thome can help there in addition to his 100-150 ABs. Plus that still works even if he gets injured (which is something we haven’t mentioned).

     
    • Posts: 5385 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      It’s funny you mention that Brian, because when I first heard the news, I thought maybe they were bringing him in to replace GG. Maybe to be our “Mark McGuire” so to speak. Then I read the rest of it.

       
  • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Well….Thome could certainly be used as a type of hitting coach to mentor some of the younger guys. I think this is money very well spent on so many levels. Who cares if he only gets 150 ABs??!! His presence and leadership alone are worth the 1+ million. Who knows….maybe he even helps Ryan Howard.

     
    • Posts: 5385 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Now, that would be ironic wouldn’t it?

      Another blog has noted the following:
      “Thome’s 14.2% walk rate in 2011 would have comfortably beaten out all of the Phillies’ regular players. Teach by example, maybe?”

       
      • Posts: 443 Ian Riccaboni

        Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

        Great stat, Lefty. Haven’t seen that one yet and haven’t thought of it like that. May be a very nice pick up in more ways than one.

         
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    Cuddyer is the perfect fit here. Can play everywhere and kill lefties. Get it done.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Yep, a perfect fit, because his age (33 in 2012) will fit nicely with all the other old Phils. So many fans want the Phils to get younger (hence all the “get rid of Rollins” talk) but still applaud pursuing guys already in their thirties. To me, that makes no sense.

       
    • Posts: 385 Publius

      Avatar of Publius

      Ugh, no thanks. Cuddyer is old, mediocre and is an absolute disaster with the glove. Sure, he can play everywhere, but he plays them all poorly. Throw in the wicked platoon split and age and the fact that he’s a Type A and will cost us a first round pick, and this has all the makings of Raul 2.0. No thank you.

       
      • Posts: 1048 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        The people have spoken. I agree with the people.

        Cuddyer would be nice to have at a cost of something like $5-8 million and no first round pick.

        Cuddyer at $10-14 million and a first round pick is no good. Especially since he’ll take ABs away from Mayberry and Brown and basically be a hugely expensive super-utility guy.

        They should probably focus on SS before they start adding big-dollar utility guys who can’t play SS (or any other position particularly well, for that matter).

         
  • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    The Phillies must not be convinced that Mayberry is the real deal if they are in “serious pursuit” of Cuddyer.

     
    • Posts: 5385 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Either that or they really don’t believe Ryan Howard will be back any time soon.

       
  • Posts: 5385 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    Almost every team is in serious pursuit of Cuddyer. He will make a grand payday this winter, I don’t think it will be here.

     
    • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

      Avatar of Chuck A.

      Personally, I think you gotta give every opportunity to young Mayberry, letting him play 1st, left, center (spelling Shane occasionally). Keep Ben Fran as your 4th outfielder. Let guys like Valdez and MiniMart battle it out for infield help. Cuddyer is a nice bat but his defense isn’t anything special, especially in the infield.

       
      • Posts: 5385 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Completely agree, except I’m not in love with Ben Fran. I can’t deny he seems to have a flair for the big spot, but overall body of work is meh, but we could do worse. I guess us armchair GM’s will see what RAJ has in mind this winter, and go from there!

         
      • Posts: 1048 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        I agree that you need to let Mayberry show what he’s got. But you’ve also got to see what you can get out of Brown. Benny Fresh can be an ok guy off the bench, I suppose, but they really need to let the cheap, young, athletic, high-upside guys see significant playing time.

        Martinez should be stationed in Lehigh Valley and only occupy a roster spot only in the event a stray meteor takes out Wilson Valdez.

         
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    I got a feeling that Jim’s first act back with the Phillies is to have a chat with his buddy Cuddyer. I would like to see him here. We can put him in left or third depending on how the current players play out in those positions.

    If we learned anything from last year is that we need new bats.

     
    • Posts: 1048 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      No, that’s not what we learned from last year. I’ve said this before, but after Chase came back, THE PHILLIES HAD THE BEST OFFENSE IN THE NL. It was better than their 2008 offense, and it was better than their 2010 offense. I don’t know why people are focusing on Cuddyer when the biggest offensive hole on the team right now is at SS. If they spend >$10 million a season on a super-utility guy and thus can’t sign Rollins or Reyes you’re actually going to hurt the offense since whatever slop you run out at SS every night is going to be significantly worse than any improvement you get from a few Cuddyer when Polly is out and against the odd lefty starter here and there.

      What we learned from last year was that short playoff series are a crapshoot. That’s the same lesson that the 2001 116-win Seattle Mariners and the 2004 105-win St. Louis Cardinals and the 1998 106-win Atlanta Braves all learned. Basically, you gotta get lucky.

       
      • Posts: 0 Mazinman

        The Phillies were definately not the best offense in baseball when they went to the playoffs. We lost Game 5 in a shut out and we would have been shut out in game 4 too if it was not for Ben Fransisco. Game 1 was a really good offensive night and the team did not produce like it should have the next 4. We need changes.

        As for shortstop, at this point it is Rollins or bust because I really don’t see Reyes fitting in the clubhouse. That is not a lot of options especially if some other team decides to go 5 years with Jimmy. We need to look for improvements wherever we can get them.

         
      • Posts: 1048 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Yes, over the course of those 5 games the Phillies were not the best offense in baseball. (Although, they did score more runs [21] than St. Louis [19] over the course of the LDS) But that’s my point – small sample sizes are not a true measure of whatever you’re looking at. It’s the same reason that if you flip a coin 5 times you’ll frequently get some crazy distribution (33% of the time you toss a coin 5 times you’ll get a distribution >79.9% heads or tails, if I’m remembering my probability equations correctly) but if you flip it 162 times you’ll just about always get something much closer to the real probability, (which, for the coin, is going to be around 50%). The same is true for any team winning and losing a game in a playoff series…

        Any team can lose a game here and there, and when you’re in a very short series the winner of that series is not necessarily the best overall team. The regular season is a much better measure of that, since it’s drawing from a larger sample size, and in that larger sample size, the Phillies had the best offense over the course of 4 months (May 23-Sept 28). That’s more indicative of their true talent level than is 5 particular games over the course of a given week. You are even making it worse, admitting that they exploded in the first game. In that case we’re down to 4 games. Any team in baseball can go into a bit of an offensive slump in a 4 game series. Any team. Like I said, in a very short series, you have to be lucky. All those teams I referenced that won well over 100 games all lost prior to the World Series – not because they weren’t an overall better team than their opponents, because they undoubtedly were, but because they got unlucky over a short period of time. There’s no way that in 2001 the 95-win Yankees were truly a better all around team than the 116-win Mariners, yet they won the ALCS in 5 games. They got lucky. It really is that simple.

        From May 23rd to the end of the season, the NL leaders in runs per game were:
        1. Phi 4.629 RPG
        2. Mil 4.626 RPG
        3. NY 4.59 RPG

        Nobody’s going to give Rollins 5 years. All good, big money teams that would want Jimmy and be able to afford a 5/60ish deal that it would take to land him either have a very good or high-priced player already at SS or they have promising young talent in the minors that they’re looking to bring up within a few years. He might get 4 from somewhere (Washington?!) but I think it’s going to be really difficult for him to get a 5 year deal.

        Finally, Reyes is a little guy – he’d fit in the clubhouse fine if it came to that.

         
      • Posts: 5385 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Runs per game does not work as a practical stat. In the regular season the only proper way to measure offensive performance is runs per win. Since almost all teams will lose somewhere between 60 and 90 games, what’s the point of including offensive production in losses. The Phillies pitching staff allowed all told, 3.02 runs per game. If we take your runs per game figure 4.6, you could say they should have won every game after May 23rd. Did they? No of course not. That’s the fallacy of average runs per game, it just doesn’t tell the story correctly.

        It’s this simple, the team must score 4 runs every game, not average 4 runs per game, actually score 4 runs per game in order to attain enough wins to win a short series. Not 10 one day and 1 the next, that’s an average of 5.5 runs per game, but it’s likely you lost one of those right? The Cardinals lineup was clearly potent enough to produce 4 runs per game much more easily than we were. Who cares that we outscored St. Louis, we lost. Score 4 runs per game, and you can breeze through the 11 postseason wins needed. Obviously no teams sweep the playoffs, but the Cardinals are world champs. This team needs to increase it’s offensive potency, forget about the averages.

         
      • Posts: 0 George

        Lefty, you should also make the same claim about average runs ALLOWED; that it, too, is invalid. The 3.02 ERA in a short series meant ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when you look at the Lee and Oswalt games.

         
      • Posts: 1048 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        @Lefty
        “Average” runs means just that. Some games you’ll score 10, some 0. And pitching is the same way, some games you’ll give up 6, some you’ll give up 0. But how many you score on any given day is really irrelevant. That’s why numbers aggregated over the course of a season are more indicative of the capabilities of a player or team.

        But to limit it just to wins or losses seems an unnecessary cherry-picking of stats. When I look at how the offense is capable of performing it’s independent of the defense or pitching staff. You could accumulate an offensive all star team that scores an average of 10 runs a game, but if this hypothetical offensive all-star team runs out a bunch of high-schoolers on their pitching staff team will likely lose a lot of games.

        That doesn’t mean they didn’t have the best offense, it just means that their offense wasn’t good enough to overcome the runs they gave up. But objectively, they still had the best offense. Likewise, the best pitching staff in the league means little in the standings if you have a lineup of 9 Michael Martinez clones. It’s possible such a team could have the best pitching staff in the league and still finish under .500.

        My point is that the performances of the offense and pitching staff are independent. They don’t effect each other, so you can’t really say that their offense, in total, wasn’t good because they lost some games. You can lose games in which you score 13 runs and win games in which you score 1. So saying that the 1 run in the win is any more illustrative of the offensive capabilities of the team than the 13 runs in the loss doesn’t provide any clearer a picture, IMO.

        @George You have it backward. The average over the course of the season is the more accurate number. The two games Oswalt and Lee pitched in the NLDS mean very little if you’re trying to ascertain the quality of your pitching staff. Any pitcher in the league can have a bad game. It’s the total of their performances which shows you how good or bad they are. So those two NLDS games are actually what mean nothing, while the season totals are what are important.

         
      • Posts: 0 George

        EricL: You have misunderstood my comment. I don’t have anything backward. My argument was just to point out to Lefty that if he’s going to argue about average runs being invalid in a short series, that pitching averages can’t be valid either. I’m not arguing that averages are a waste, but merely that Lefty’s argument is incomplete. He certainly can’t argue that if the Phils had scored 4.6 every game instead of averaging it that they would have won; they certainly still would have lost the Lee and Oswalt games. And his idea that the Cards won because they could more consistently put up 4 runs per game isn’t really true, either. They scored three in game one, two in game three, and one in game five. Not exactly overwhelming “potency.”

        I will say further that his “runs per win” idea is really an irrelevant complication, because THAT can only be averaged, too. There’s not a team around that won’t win games 1-0 and 8-7.

        At this point, I’m a little tired of all the analysis. My opinion is not that the Phils lost due to poor offense, bad luck, or what-have-you. They lost because they played badly, simple as that.

         
  • Posts: 0 Chris

    Cuddyer will be the next Ibanez fellas. Have we not learned anything? Yeah he was younger than Ibanez but Ibanez stays in much better shape than most of the guys in the league. There really is no spot on the Phils for 3 years of Cuddyer. He only makes sense for next year.

     
    • Posts: 385 Publius

      Avatar of Publius

      A-friggin-men

       
    • Posts: 443 Ian Riccaboni

      Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

      Ibanez = Black belt in at least one martial art, correct? Trains by doing judo in the off-season, right? I agree. We probably saw the best case fitness example for an older player with Raul. I don’t like Cuddyer either.

       
  • Posts: 1105 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    I really think this move is just for a left handed bat, I would not be surprised if JMJ plays first most of the time while Ryan is hurt, Jim may play 8-10 games in the field. I feel even at his age is at least as good a hitter as Gload with more power, and for a million bucks is not a bad guy to have on your bench.

     
  • Posts: 2896 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Michael Cuddyer is not a good defensive infielder. Putting him at 3rd would only be as a last resort.

     
  • Posts: 1376 Pat Gallen

    Avatar of Pat Gallen

    As long as the Phillies don’t go about $10 million with Cuddyer and more than two years, I’m fine with it. 2 years, $16 million? I think you can live with that. I’m a fan of his and even though he’s not great with the glove, I like what he brings to the table against lefties, where the team has struggled. He would be better than Raul.

     
    • Posts: 1048 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Um, Pat, he made $10.5 million last year. There’s no way he’s taking a 25% pay cut in his age 33 and 34 seasons to come to Philly.

      If they get him for anything under $12 million/yr I’d be really surprised. Anything under $10 million a year I’ll eat my hat and post pictures of it.

       
    • Posts: 0 Chris

      If the Phillies somehow get him to leave years and money on the table to come to Philly then I’d be a little less against this move. The thing is I don’t see that happening and that is why I’m against this.

       
  • Posts: 1105 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    If you are talking figuring a way to platoon the guy, or have spot starts and be your rh bench bat anything over 8-9 million is too much money, where are you planning on Cuddyer playing, 3b? Platoon with JMJ in right? either case you can not pay that type of player 10 million unless he is your every day 3b and you get some minor leaguer for Poly. I have a question outside the box Does Chase not have the arm or reaction time to play third?

     
    • Posts: 1048 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Even then, because Cuddyer’s deaf in his left ear he’s only played on the left side of the field (LF/3B) 15 times since 2006. That’s 3 times a season, yet those are the positions he’d be asked to play a majority of the time here, with a few ABs at first if Howard isn’t back in time.

      I just see very little upside to any realistic deal that would bring Cuddyer here.

       
    • Posts: 0 loupossehl

      If memory serves me correctly, they tried Chase at 3rd in the high minors. Didn’t work then; too late now.

      I keep coming back to Reyes as a game changer who addresses our biggest vulnerability. Our problem is not pitching or the outfield. It’s a geriatric infield, where our ability to play small ball and provide table setters for big bats fades by the day. If we stand pat with our infield, 2012 will be a repeat (at best) of 2011; we’ll grind out the wins over 162 games and go into the playoffs, where some team with spark and the ability to play opportunistically will run us out of the series.

      Cross our fingers, hope for the best and go after Reyes. He’s a free-agency oddity: a major-league calibre shortstop. He’s at the prime of his career and he’d bring relative youth where it’s killing us because we don’t have it; maybe Thome can help him get his head screwed on straight.

       
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    Next up is Varitek as our backup catcher youth movement in full force yeah baby…

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    EricL? Michael Cuddyer is no good for more than a two year contract. I’m with Pat. 2y16m. What makes players think that they should get more money just because they have been in the league a long time? Look at Jimmy. He wants to be paid like a premium, not injury plagued, good fielding 27 year old shortstop. But he’s 33. Point being, yes, I would expect Cuddyer to take a pay cut because he is older and not as good as he used to be.

    I think LF will be filled in a trade. Chase Utley cannot play third. They tried him there in high school/ college and it didn’t work. I would guess that, among other things, his arm was too weak.

    The Dipsy

     
    • Posts: 1048 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Yeah, well, I’d be fine with it if they could get him for 8 million a season, but that’s just not realistic. He’s coming off his best season (by WAR) as a professional, is currently 32 years old, and made $10.5 million last year. Let me say that again, he’s coming off arguably his best season – there’s not player in the league who’s in his early 30s coming off his best season who’s going to decrease his salary after hitting free agency. It just doesn’t happen, and your assertion that he’s “not as good as he used to be” is just not accurate.

      The OF FA market is relatively weak and the Phils aren’t the only team looking for a power-hitting RH bat. Cuddyer’s going to get his money, and wherever he signs it’s going to be more than $10mm/yr. I just hope it won’t be in Philadelphia.

      I don’t have a problem with Jimmy looking for his money either, because while he’s not what he used to be, he’s still a VERY good shortstop. There are few better than he in the NL, even at his age, and one of those guys is just as injury prone despite being 5 years younger. He has a skill set that’s not readily available and the market usually places guys who are not easy to find at a high price. That’s just how it works.

       
    • Posts: 0 George

      Dipsy, you ask what makes players think they should get more money just because they’ve been in the league a long time. Here are my answers:

      Being in the league a long time is proof that a player is still performing well enough to stay in the ML.

      Many of them were somewhat underpaid (compared to what similar established players were getting) while they were putting up some big numbers.

      Not many fans would show up to see an unheralded prospect; a veteran is worth more at the gate.

      Inflation.

      Front offices seem to be willing to pay more for established names.

      As far as Rollins asking a premium, I don’t think he is. SS is a premium position and Rollins still plays it well. When he had his best season, he was decidedly UNDERPAID. He’s been an above average presence his entire career. He’s a fan favorite and thus a box office draw. There’s a demand for his talents unmatched by any other shortstop except the injury prone Reyes.

      He may ask for what seems a lot, but he’ll sign only for what the market will bear. You may think it’s a “premium,” but the team signing him certainly won’t.

       
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    Getting back to Thome, I was very impressed today at the press conference when he said he would be willing to show up early to Spring Training just to see if he could give playing defense a shot again. How often do you see a sure Hall of Famer at his age be willing to do that for his team? No wonder everyone loves the guy.

     
  • Posts: 5385 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    @EricL, please re-consider what I am trying to tell you. “To limit it to just wins and loses is a cherry picking of stats”????? Wins and losses is what it’s all about, friend.

    But, forget that, because the main theme I’m trying to get across is the Phillies general need for more offensive potency and consistency. You can throw all the aggregate numbers and comparisons, and pitching independent of hitting, and average runs per game after May 23rd,- in the world at me. You can argue this all winter if you want but it’s just plain foolish to say the Phillies had the best offense based on ARPG, and think that they don’t need to improve their offensive production and consistency.

    The key remains- the team must actually score, not average, but score 4 runs per game. If they do that with our pitching, they win it all. Regular season, post season crap shoot, call it whatever you want. With our pitching staff I can take you through every post season game and project how easily this works. We did not have the best offense in the league after May 23rd, we simply averaged more runs, and that is a totally flawed stat. As I stated before, if you play 2 games and score 10 runs in one, and 0 in the other- you average 5 runs per game, which looks pretty good-but you still lose one of those games. if the sample size is too small, multiply the two numbers by ten, it’s still the same. You can go on thinking that average runs per game means we had the best offense, but it’s a flawed unreliable useless metric. This team must strive to become a more consistently potent offensive team. I don’t know how you can’t see this, and frankly don’t know how to explain it any better to help you understand friend.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Limit your argument to “consistency” and you might have a point. They had the potency or they couldn’t have scored so many runs, be it in one game or 162.

      And they wouldn’t definitely have won it all. Once again, you’ve failed to mention pitching stats are also averages. What if the ERA for a short series was not 3.02, but 5.06? And you also seem unable to comprehend that there’s not a team now or in the past that ever scored four runs per game.

      If average runs is a flawed stat, it’s certainly no more flawed than any other stat. And it’s certainly LESS FLAWED than 4 runs per game fantasies and failure to figure in the pitching.

       
      • Posts: 5385 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        In your comment above you said I could not produce an argument that we could have overcome the Lee and Oswalt games in the Cardinals series by scoring 4 runs. Of course we could, by scoring just 2 in game 5.

        Now for the consistency issue, of course there has never been a team that scored 4 runs every game. If there were, there would be a team that swept all 11 playoff games, and that has never happened. To try to be more clear on this matter, the ARPG stat is flawed, what I am saying is actual runs per game in the regular season is a better indicator of how potent and consistent an offense is, and how capable they are of making it through the 11 game grind to win a WFC. Score 4 runs a game and you win. The easiest way to prove that is to look at the scores of the 2011 playoffs only 7 of the 39 playoff games played were won by teams that scored less than 4 runs.

        But the main point is, you guys keep saying we were the best offense in the league, and I’m saying we weren’t. We had several long stretches of inexplicable swoons even when we were winning because of our outstanding pitching and defense. Average runs per game does not tell the complete story, it is not a reliable or viable stat. Can you at least agree that the Cardinals had top to bottom a more threatening lineup than we did? The Rangers, Brewers, even the Dbacks are more potent and capable of scoring more than 4 runs more often than the Phillies are. If you don’t see that, I’ll never make you a believer. I can only hope that RAJ gets off this pipedream that he has a :”championship caliber lineup” He doesn’t.

         
      • Posts: 155 therookie300

        Avatar of therookie300

        Well the Cards just won without a championship caliber pitching staff. Every year it looks more and more like you just have to be hot at the right time. The stats are somewhat meaningless when facing a hot team. The last two years are clear examples of over-achieving teams.

        The biggest problem with the Phillies offense is that the league has adapted to them while the Phils have failed to adapt to the league. The coaching staff should be taking more heat for allowing this to happen.

         
 
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