Phillies Offer Arbitration to Rollins, Madson, Ibanez

Posted by Pat Gallen, Wed, November 23, 2011 04:59 PM | Comments: 78
Analysis, News, Opinion, Posts

Ibanez was offereed arb. But why?

In a bit of a head scratching move, the Phillies have offered salary arbitration to Raul Ibanez, meaning if he accepts, he could actually make more than the $12 million he made in 2011.

It was a foregone conclusion the Phillies would offer it to Jimmy Rollins and Ryan Madson. With the Jonathan Papelbon signing, the Phillies lose a first-round draft pick, but when Madson signs elsewhere, they will recoup one. Same goes for Jimmy; if he moves on, the Phillies get a pick either in the first round, or a sandwich pick.

The Ibanez offering, however, comes out of left field. Perhaps they do look at him as a fallback option if they can’t come to terms with another outfielder they are squiring on the open market. And perhaps Ibanez has already told the Phillies he will decline the option anyway, even if they do offer it. In that case, he’s doing the Phils a solid, and they will receive a supplemental pick when he goes elsewhere.

But if that’s not the case, there’s a chance he’ll get a raise on a one-year deal, which would be a misstep by the Phillies. The Phillies can offer no more than 20 percent pay cut from last years salary, according to the old CBA. Let’s hold off on ripping the Phillies front office for the time being, or until the facts come out as to why Ibanez has been given arbitration.

That also means Roy Oswalt is an free agent, no strings attached. Ruben Amaro has said that he’s been in contact with Oswalt’s representation; although it’s unlikely he comes back to Philadelphia.

Yesterday, I spoke with Amaro who said he has been in “constant contact” with Rollins’ agent and he “knows where we stand.” A deal could get done soon if Rollins comes off his five-year demands.

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About Pat Gallen

Pat Gallen has written 1714 articles on Phillies Nation.

Pat is Editor-in-Chief of Phillies Nation. He also covers the Phils for 97.5 FM in Philly.

  • Posts: 385 Publius

    Avatar of Publius

    If Raul accepts this, this could be the worst Phillies offseason in recent memory.

  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    Ibanez better have agreed to not accept because if he does the Phils will be maxed out salary wise with no SS.

  • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder


  • Posts: 0 Mark

    I can’t believe the Phils would make a bad move like this. This has to be on purpose. Ibanez is going to decline and the Phils will get a pick. The Phils probably made an under the table deal giving Ibanez some walking around money for his help here before he goes.

  • Posts: 30 Gavin

    Avatar of Gavin

    If he accepts it this is the worst move I’ve ever seen. But if they agreed to not accepting it and getting a draft pick, it’s quite a good one.

  • Posts: 0 Frank Riccard

    Yeah, I can’t imagine they would leave Raul up to chance. They must have cleared it with him ahead of time. He is definitely the kind of guy that would do them a solid like that.

    It’s too bad they couldn’t offer Oswalt arbitration, but it’s understandable why. At least we’ll still be able to draft up quite a few slots in the first round thanks to Madson.

  • Posts: 0 Chris

    I’m assuming Ibanez is a handshake deal not to accept. The phillies could still offer arbitration to Oswalt as the deadline has not passed yet but to do so they need an understanding like the one I assume they have with Ibanez.

  • Posts: 0 John Davis

    This Is Just Short Of Unbelievable. In A Good Way ! Ibnanez Still Rocks For An Older Player.

  • Posts: 0 BART SHART

    Sounds really dumb to me regarding Ibanez. I hope Amaro knows what he’s doing here. THIS, at this point in time, is mind-blowing.

    • Posts: 452 Ian Riccaboni

      Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

      David Murphy thinks that there’s a handshake deal to not accept. It almost has to be that. Old arb rules say a team can offer no less than 80% of the player’s current salary so even if they did somehow put a case against Ibanez, he’d still be raking in some serious green.

  • Posts: 2005 Brooks

    Avatar of Brooks

    Wow – words escape me but wow.

  • Posts: 556 Bruce

    Avatar of Bruce

    It appears obvious when all three (Rollins, Madson and Ibanez) are offered arbitration. Amaro would get something in compensation by way of a draft pick if each were to sign elsewhere. In the best possible world without budget constraint, to sign all three would take care all of the issues concerning SS, bullpen and LF/bench for next season.

    I just don’t think Madson will be satisfied to be in a “setup” role again and be paid as such. He’s gone. Ibanez is not a “disaster” as some of the whining posters ranted here. They seem to selectively ignored his contributions despite his injuries and periodic slumps. After all, his season production in HRs and RBIs are second most to Ryan Howard who, by the way, was voted in the ten best list for MVP (smile). And Ibanez is a half decent fielder..better than say..Ben francisco. Remember our beloved Pat Burrell? In his career with the Phillies,
    he was a worst fielder than Ibanez but Pat “The Bat” was valuable offensively and as teammate and a clubhouse presence. However, I’m not optimistic that Ibanez will stay with the Phillies.

    With Rollins, it’s a totally different situation. Amaro knows he needs him back in a worse way. Amaro is fully aware he has little choice with SS situation. And with no thought of pursuing Reyes, he is in a bind to have the best possible player in that most valuable position. Rollins MUST be signed with the Phillies. There is room in the budget to give Rollins a deal that he can be satisfied with. Let’s not waste any time Amaro, give him what he wants.

    • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

      A .245/.289/.419 slash line with a negative WAR and the defensive range of a houseplant is pretty much a disaster. You can talk about RBIs all you want, but you can put a much cheaper, younger, and athletic player in the five or six slot and get those RBIs. It has nothing to do with any special ability – it’s a function of where he hits in the order.

      He can only take a 20% cut through arbitration, so he could become the world’s first $10M fifth outfielder. Wonderful.

      Let’s hope there’s some sort of agreement in place.

  • Posts: 5429 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    I’m certain it’s Raul doing the Phillies a solid, just my opinion.

  • Posts: 5429 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    “The Phillies were a “strong option” for Sizemore, but they wanted him in left field, Heyman reports.”

    Too bad, with a contract like he got, I would have liked that.

  • Posts: 206 The Dipsy

    Avatar of The Dipsy

    Ummmmmmmmmm. If we all know that Raul is gonna decline arbitration then doesn’t the rest of the world know, too? Then the rest of the world knows, too, that what the Phillies are doing violates the CBA, I’m sure. Why? For what purpose? He’s gonna be a type B free agent so we get “what” if he signs with another team?

    This is what’s happening, and if its happening, I will WILL go to CBP and picket, or something: They Ibanez arbitration. He turns it down. The Phils get a pick. And the incentive for Raul????: You got it – the Phils resign him and we’ve got an Ibanez/Mayberry platoon. This is a very reckless and irresponsible move by Amaro because Raul can just turn around and accept the arb and get 10m for next year and burn Ruben’s ass. I would if I were him because it IS all about the Benjamins. This is NOT going to end well.

    The Dipsy

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      Here’s the thing though. You can claim that you weren’t making a deal if you had a secret agreement but if you offer he turns down and then you sign him then that would mean being caught red handed. So I doubt this is the plan. By all accounts Raul is a standup guy and if he and the FO have some kind of understanding he will not go back on his word. I’m very confident Raul will not be with the Phillies next year.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      Also they only get a pick if another team signs him and not if he turns it down and then they sign him.

    • Posts: 5429 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      There is no violation of the CBA. Everyone knows that Madson is going to turn it down too. The Cardinals offered it to Pujols, everyone knows he’s not going to take it. There is nothing illegal about this, fishy maybe, but no violation.

    • Posts: 0 Mazinman

      No reason to worry. No other team is going to complain about this since I suspect everyone is doing it now or will do so in the future.

  • Posts: 206 The Dipsy

    Avatar of The Dipsy

    And Bruce…Ibanez IS an unmitigated disaster.

    The Dipsy

  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    This blew my mind when i read it on my phone on FB. This could end bad i sure hope RAJ has a plan here.

  • Posts: 5429 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    It’s 10:00 and still no decision on Lidge, that’s odd- makes me think something might be going on there.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      While I wouldn’t have minded Lidge earlier in free agency at this point we have Papelbon and Contreras to be our “reliable vets” in the bullpen. Considering how little money the Phillies have to work with to stay under the luxury tax threshold Lidge would be a waste to sign. Maybe they can get him to do a handshake deal to decline but if he wanted to you’d think they’d have it arranged already.

      • Posts: 5429 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        I just figured that they would have announced they are not offering him arbitration already. We don’t need him, but I get the feeling something is up.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Happy thanksgiving to everyone. Pacticularily Donny, Chuck A,, Lefty, Dipsy and Brooks.

    why would Ibanez turn it down? Its probably his best way to be in the majors this year. And weird things happen in arbitration.
    If he is somehow on the roster. I may turn in my fan card and cancel the baseball package.

    I want to see so many of the guys moved. But he was almost a given. I thought.
    I refuse to play the fiddle as RAJ burns down Rome.
    Im still waiting for some good off season news for a team that was grossly under achieved the last 2 years.

    • Posts: 1146 betasigmadeltashag

      Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

      where do i have call to make sure Raul agrees to arbitration, I do not care what it would cause in the finacial future of the Phillies because if he does, that would mean I would not have to put up with the most anoying poster here. Sign Raul say good bye to AFW the world would be such a nicer place

  • Posts: 0 Chris

    Some people hate Ibanez and Rube so much that they will actually believe that Rube wants Ibanez back for around 10 mill. This is not the case people. It is quite often that teams enter into handshake deals with players to make sure they decline their arbitration offers. Ibanez is a stand up guy and I can totally see him doing this. Rube would rather have Rollins than Ibanez and Ibanez prevents Rollins. Besides Rube isn’t dumb enough get saddled with Ibanez at ten mill when he could have gotten him for 4 mill or less.

  • Posts: 5429 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    Happy Thanksgiving to you too Andrew, in fact Happy Holiday to all the commenters and writers of PN!

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Why would he be a stand up guy and give away free money?

    I do not hate either person. Ibanez sucked since his first 70 games with the Phils and RAJ seems to be torching the team lately.
    Just an opinion.

    I disnt think Ibanez would be on a roster. This assures him of being on one. Pats right some moron arbitrator could give him 15 million for next year.

    This is interesting. Waiting too see how it all pans out for march.
    It may be the same exact offense now. Which is a real puzzler.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      So you believe Ruben is willing to pay Ibanez that much money for next year?

  • Posts: 0 davehist

    A really strange move for the Phillies unless there is some under-the-table agreement with Raul. But maybe they figure he can play shortstop next year.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    I think theres more to this.
    But this is Rauls decision now. If he accepts the arbitration he gets whatever the arbitrator gives him for next year.
    If he accepts he belongs to the phillies.

    Why would he do the Phillies a “solid”?
    Thus doing whoever his new team is not a “solid”

    All weird.
    RAJ is a head scratcher.
    Will have to wait and see.
    But basicly if Raul accepts and the arbitrator gives him 15 million.
    Rube has no recourse.
    You own him. Like that other guy who I wont mention.

    Happy thanksgiving again to all.
    I enjoy this site.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      The team that would sign him loses nothing if he spurns the arbitration offer. He’s a type B free agent and will only get the Phillies a supplementary pick.

  • Posts: 5429 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    Lidge status just updated, no abritration offered.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    So Lidge not offered because Phils have no intererst.

    If you think logicly about the Ibanez move it only means one thing.

    The Phillies have some interest in Raul.
    Or they dont offer.
    They didnt offer Lidge who has about as much value in the open market.

    I dont buy into the conspiracy theories or Ibanez doing the Phils a solid and letting his own value be less.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    So you are teling me.

    There is a chance September 1st 2012 I could see this line up?

    Rollins SS
    Utley 2B
    Pence RF
    Howard 1B
    Victorino CF
    Polanco 3B
    Ibanez LF
    Ruiz C

    Notice I said September 1st not October 1st.

    I have to say extra thanksgiving prayers now. Happy happy joy joy.
    I mean you cant beat this line up.
    Its one of the best in baseball.
    Thats why they all get 10s and win every year.

    Peronaly I cant wait till 2020. When they are all in their mid to late 40s.
    Maybe Rube will extend them now.
    People dont even call him. All his players are untouchable.
    Only my best
    Im so excited and I just cant stand it.
    Now just pay Jimmy whatever he asks for and its a party.
    Party like its 2008

  • Posts: 1048 EricL

    Avatar of EricL

    What. The. Fudgesicle.

    Words escape me right now. Which is unusual, since I’m typically kind of verbose.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Dykstra has to be hungry (or in jail). Probably dont have to offer arbitration either.
    You just sign him.
    Hes in the same age range as Raul and Thome (48-41-40).
    And a bargain.

  • Posts: 0 Chris

    If the Phillies wanted Ibanez back they could have not offered him arbitration and had him for much cheaper. As I said RAJ has done some stupid overpays but he would not be this stupid. Let it play out before we get crazy.

    • Posts: 1048 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Shoot first and ask questions later is my personal policy on Phillies blog commenting.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf


    Do you understand how arbitration works?

    You offer it. Player accepts.
    An arbitrator determines his salary for the season.
    If he says 20 million or league minimum you live with it.

    Why would Ibanez say no? When we all know he isnt worth much of anything?

    Ruben sees him as part of the future.
    Like the other old cripples. Only in the grand scheme. He is healthier than the other feebs and 15-25 million dollar men.

    Ruben holds no cards. You offered.
    He accepts.
    Then thats it. You pay what you are told too.

    Well then he may be doing the Phillies a “solid”

    You cant make it up.
    Its the fans every day.
    Cole will take less to stay here too.
    They all want to come here to lose in round 1.
    Doing the phils a “solid”
    Like the big contract and Lee.
    Everyone is looking to do the Phillies a favor.
    Raul is just the latest.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      Wow do YOU understand how arbitration works? The only thing you seem to understand is it can be offered and then the player can accept or decline. Aside from that you have no clue as always.

      Two sides present their case and the arbitrator decides which one is more reasonable. He can’t just assign some random value as he so chooses and at least under the old system the player can not be offered less than 80 percent of his previous salary.

      Let’s say the Phillies truly wanted Ibanez. They know he is not worth near so much as he could get in arbitration. They could not offer it to him and just sign him for 3 or 4 million. The only way you could think there isn’t something in play here is if you believed RAJ was the dumbest guy on earth.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Just to clarify the defintion of a “solid”

    Game 5 vs the Cardinals. When Carpenter tried to walk Howard.

    I was watching and I bent over the couch. Only because I knew he had the green light.

    And there it was
    Ryan Howard swung away and popped out.

    He gave me a “solid”.
    He gave us all a “solid”

    Some of you relax and enjoy it.
    Im not yet to that point. But I am trying.

    At least hes making $25,000,000.00 per year till 2017.

    If he wasnt I couldnt sleep.
    And he and the Rube wouldnt be giving me the “solid” I deserve.

    • Posts: 549 Brian Sr. of CO

      Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

      Didn’t you say at the end of the season you were going to stop with the Howard junk? We all know he is not clutch and is getting paid WAY to much, and seems to be declining, but you said (almost exact words) that it is what it is, and there is not point bashing him anymore.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Why would Ibanez decline it?

    Doing me a “solid” ?

    You think the players are Rubes too?
    No he GMs
    The players take from him.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    So Ibanez will decline
    Because he is a team player.
    And lashes out at money.

    Ibanez wants to sign for less
    Or give the phillies a compensatory pick if hes signed somewhere else.

    Build his statue next to Rollins. Hes a phillie through and through.

    Throws away money or disses his new team for the Phillies.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      In what way does he diss his new team? They lose no pick from any of it.

      I will be right there with you if there truly was no agreement in place here but this is not an uncommon practice for teams to do this.

      If it turns out he accepts arbitration you’ll have a new man in your cause. And I will be shouting Ruben’s stupidity from the rooftops.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf


    Winner winner chicken dinner.
    He sees a platoon in left.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    @ Chris
    First my camp is for the Phillies. Only I take an honest realistic point of view.
    You have many people here who will drink the kool aid and want them all back.

    Why would Raul who I thought was out of the league not?
    Or he is signing here for nothing?

    Either way he is here.
    Offering arbitration isnt a way to make a player disappear.
    Its a way to keep them around.

    I tell you this guy likes him like Jimmy.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      Offering arbitration is a way to get a draft pick. The Phillies certainly don’t want madson on the team now that they have Papelbon and yet they offered him arbitration for the draft picks because he will be declining.

      • Posts: 549 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        I dont know I would go as far as saying the Phillies certainly do not want Madson on the team, as much as certainly do not want him closing. Madson will not return, (I believe) not because he doesnt want to pitch for the Phillies, or the Phillies do not want him back, but he wants to close, and the Phillies do not want him to close. I am sure he is long gone, but more because the role he would play, vice the sides not liking each other (safe to say the Phillies HATE Scott P.O.S. Boras, and the POS hates the Phillies. LOL).

  • Posts: 549 Brian Sr. of CO

    Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

    Are Lefty and I the only two on here that would not be surprised at all if there was a handshake to decline it? The writing was on the wall in the 2011 season when he saw decreased playing time for JMJ to step in. Just because someone is offered arbitration does not mean they are going to take it. Hello, lets think. Almost a guarantee neither J-Roll nor Madson will take Arbitration. J-Roll wants a multi year deal and Madson wants to stay a closer. Arbitration would give J-Roll basically a 1 year deal, and it also basically guarantee’s Madson will NOT be the closer (Papelbon anyone). Not to mention, offering arbitration does not mean a deal is not already in the works for any of them. It is safe to say there is no deal for Madson LOL, but I have a feeling they are still working with J-Roll for him to stay. Never know what is going on behind closed doors. Maybe Ibanez is ready to give up being an every day player (I am one of the biggest Ibanez fans on here, but he should NOT be an every day player any longer). Is it possible (however VERY UNLIKELY) for a contract to be in the works for a bench type player. I dont know, maybe. Maybe there is no other team interested for him to be an every day player, and he is not ready to hang it up yet. Granted if he signs a contract for anything more than $1.5Mill, he would be WAY over paid. 80% of his current salary in INSANITY. Maybe we should see what happens with time.

    • Posts: 0 Chris

      Basically what I’ve been saying. The only people that do not have this view must genuinely believe that Ruben Amaro is a moron to the extreme. Ruben makes his bad moves but they are bad moves for impact players and Ibanez is not that.

      I could be wrong but I don’t think he’s so dumb as to have Ibanez on the team making 8 mill plus or whatever he’d be making next season because of arbitration. If it turns out that way I’ll certainly call him on it.

      • Posts: 549 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        Agreed. He does make some extremely moronic moves, but I don’t see him being this much of a moron. He also makes some pretty good moves. This may be one of them.

  • Posts: 0 Donovan

    A well written article. A lot of the comments I here are pretty rediculous. Anyone who thinks the phillies are haven’t worked this out with Raul is out of their mind. And even of you may think so… Give Ruben the benefit of the doubt before bashing him!

    I thought even the darkest Philly fans have Ruben the thumbs up for his job so far but this comment board is roasting him! What contracts has he signed that you honestly thought was redic when he actually made them? No GM has a crystal ball so before you use 20/20 hindsight…be real.

    • Posts: 549 Brian Sr. of CO

      Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

      Ok, I am one of the RAJ fans on here, and try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but seriously what contract was so rediculous when he made them? He has made some VERY good moves (Halladay, Lee the first and 2nd time, Oswalt) But he also made some boneheaded moves. Signing Ryan Howard to long term deal YEARS BEFORE his current contract was up, and that had NOTHING to do with his current injury. His current injury just points to the insanity of signing a player to longer term deal which doesnt even start until NOW even though he signed it what 2 years ago? Had he signed Howard to a 5 year deal which started when he signed is, that would be a good move, but he didn’t. Letting Cliff Lee go the first time ranks up there, although it didnt seem to have hurt to much, except for costing us a few more Mill, but Rube did go to get him back and admit his mistake. Signing Papelbon for the amount of years and money they did as early as they did is a bit of a stretch. I think Papelbon is an Elite closer, and was the best on the market, but 4 Years/50Mill? Not so sure about that one. Maybe he signed him so early to avoid the Red Sox giving him Arbitration, and not giving up a pick PLUS the money? I dont know. Ibanez for 3 years? Very few (if any) thought that was a good idea when it happened. Ruben does make mistakes. I think RAJ has a done good job, but he has made some mistakes which were glaring when they happened. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one, as I usually try to, but to think the only way to see his mistakes were with “20/20 hindsight” is a bit much.

  • Posts: 2897 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    So what did Pat say in his article???…. “Let’s hold off on ripping the Phillies front office for the time being, or until the facts come out as to why Ibanez has been given arbitration.” …..

    ….Yet the majority of you Ruben bashers did just that. ….

    Seriously people…..we should all wait til this plays itself out before we start formulating opinions. Really??? Do some of you guys actually think that ANY GM is that stupid to not have some sort of “deal” in place??

    @AFW… even though you can come across as a dck sometimes….Happy Thanksgiving to you as well. And to all my fellow PN friends.

  • Posts: 0 Bob Myers

    No way is this pure arbitration for Ibanez. Thankful for the commentators here who are more balanced or who try to give the benefit of the doubt.

    For me, I don’t enjoy being a fan unless I can be as positive as possible. Baseball helps me get in touch with my inner ten year old. In Spring training season, my team is always working towards being World Champions, whatever their make up.

    I think Moneyball has created this downside to even the best acquisitions. I’ve decided not to participate in the pessimism.

    And I don’t have to “pretend” to do it with this team.

    And we’re going to have yet another competitive and probably incredible season in 2012!

    And yep, I’m predicting that Ryan Howard will have a big year of redemption.

    OK, pessimists and nay sayers, your turn…..

  • Posts: 0 Joe A.

    Are you kidding? If you hurry, Jamie Moyer is still available.

  • Posts: 0 Bob D

    I would imagine Ibanez made an agreement with Ruben on this to decline. This way the Phils who lost a pick for the Papelbon signing and got screwed over by MLB will be able to recoup a pick.

    Happy Thanksgiving

  • Posts: 5429 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    It’s not to hard to imagine scenarios where a handshake deal happens here. Especially in light of the fact that Corey has now posted that we are interested in Damon. (new posting)

    Here’s just one- involving Raul’s agent and Ruben ( I don’t know the agent’s name)

    AGENT- “Hey Ruben, my client is not garnering much in the way of interest on the FA market and he’s not ready to hang em up yet. Do you have any interest?”
    RAJ- “No I think we’re going a different direction, but since Raul was such a great stand up guy and perfect citizen for us, I’ll make a deal with you.”
    AGENT-” What’s that”
    RAJ-”I’ll help you get other teams interested by offering him arbitration, if you promise to decline it. Once they see that the Phillies, the team with the best record in all of baseball two years running are still interested in Raul, surely you’ll get some people calling you, right?”
    AGENT- “Yes, thank you Ruben, it’s a deal, and you could get a sandwich pick out of it too”
    RAJ- “So It works out for both of us”

    Is this really that far fetched?

  • Posts: 0 Eric

    Don’t we not a get a 1st rounder for Madson anymore under the new CBA, but still lose the one for Papelbon because we signed him too soon?

  • Posts: 206 The Dipsy

    Avatar of The Dipsy

    Lefty – god bless you. No GM is that stupid.

    Unless there is some crazy new rule in the new CBA where we get a benefit from this – this was stupid, unneccessary, ANDY REID-ESQuE (is there a great indictment than that?). And benefit that the Phils derive from thius is outweighed by the risk that Raul accepts. Oh? Raul would never do that and go back on his good word cause he’s such a good guy? A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place. Faith in the good intentions of man where money is concerned is a naive ideal for a man in charge of YOUR money to have.

    Dumb. And if Raul accepts then RAJ should be fired on the spot.

    The Dipsy

    • Posts: 5429 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      No GM is that stupid? I think this one might be, I hope not.

      There is no place for naivety in his job. Maybe I am reaching, just desperately trying to find a logical reason for something so apparently illogical.

  • Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks

    No RAJ is not an idiot but I now think that Ibanez will be a Phillie next year but at a lower salary. There has to be a quid pro quo so in exchange for a possible pick RAJ promises Ibanez a bench job if he does not land elsewhere. If I am right then I think it is a bad deal because this team is too old.

  • Posts: 0 George

    I’m taking Pat’s suggestion about waiting to find out the true facts behind this decision.

    So I’ll just say this: I don’t care for the term “a solid.” That doesn’t sound like doing a good turn. It sounds more like what a person does when parked on the toilet.

  • Posts: 0 Dave

    @brian- regardless of your personal hatred towards Howard, take a look at contracts around the league for similar production. He’s paid at market value. I guess if you wanted Ruben to forsee him getting injured and that being a valid reason for it being a bad contract, than I cant help you with that logic. He finished in the top 10 in MVP voting in an average year by his standards.

    Trading away Lee to get Halladay isn’t an awful deal. He didn’t want to mortgage the future for the present but later rethought that and made it happen. You can def make a case that we shouldn’t have traded him away but you can see why we did. He should get even more props for finding a way to get him back.

    That’s it? Those are the two awful deals? Look at the impact he has made at EVERY deadline. Getting a team friendly deal from the best pitcher of this era….not to mention Lee? None of that counts bc he locked up Howard too early? I hope all the haters are as good at their job as Rueben would have to be to get a little props from this board.

    • Posts: 1048 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      How many times can you be wrong, let me count the ways:

      Ryan Howard’s contract is an abortion, and he’s like the 7th best first baseman in baseball. Howard was paid better than all of them. There are three that I can name off the top of my head that are better in the NL alone. He’s paid WAY above market value, and would have been paid even less if Ruin Tomorrow Jr hadn’t signed him to a giant extension three years before his contract was up. Pujols, Fielder and Gonzales were all slated to be free agents this offseason at the time Howard’s deal was inked (Adrian got an extension from Boston after his trade, obv). When there’s such a buyer’s market like that, you can depress the amount offered because the players know that they don’t have the GM over a barrel and their negotiating position is greatly diminished. And that’s even before you consider how Howard’s production has declined each of the past 3 seasons and his blown-out Achilles. If Amaro lets that contract expire, he now gets to choose between Pujols, Fielder, or a declining and injured Howard. If Howard were a free agent today he’d be lucky to get anywhere near a $20mm/yr AAV contract. (BTW, when you cite the MVP votes he got you’re just saying “Hey, these stupid guys agree with me!” It’s far from a convincing argument). You don’t sign aging, declining players with three years of team control to extensions when there’s going to be a glut of premiere players available at that position.

      Second, you have your facts wrong. Lee wasn’t traded away to get Halladay. The Halladay deal didn’t involve Lee at all. They were two separate events. Ruben just wanted to restock the farm system after trading away a handful of top prospects, but he could have just as easily kept Lee on the team and gone with 3 aces in 2010. In fact, if you were paying attention, you’d see that Amaro basically admitted that trading Lee away was a mistake — which makes it kind of funny that you’re defending the move — when he had to go out and additional pitching at the deadline (and, if rumors are to be believed, before he got Oswalt he had tried to reacquire Lee). Further, the prospects that the Phillies received in return for Lee were widely thought to be middling at best. None of them have done much in the way of impress, although Aumont has the potential to be a back of the bullpen guy now that they’ve abandoned the idea of using him as a starter.

      The deadline impact argument is also fallacious. First, if you don’t stupidly trade away Lee you don’t have to go out and get Oswalt the very same season, and thus don’t have to spend the prospects that he did to do it. Second, the Hunter Pence deal was awful. Amaro hugely overpaid to pick up Pence to address a weakness that didn’t actually exist. The Phillies had the best offense in the NL after the return of Utley. The. Best. Offense. They were in first place by 5.5 games over the Braves, and even more in the WC. So they dumped 3 of their top 10 organizational prospects to pick up a guy to help their offense? They were the best team in the league both in terms of record and offense when that move was made. It was entirely, completely, absolutely unnecessary. So to praise him for pillaging the farm to bring in expensive players we didn’t originally (or ever) have a need for is a tad ridiculous.

      The Papelbon contract is also a joke, as was the timing which allowed the Phils to lose their first round pick but not receive one in return for Madson, as is his handling of Domonic Brown, the minor league prospect system, his insistence on keeping Michael Martinez around all of last season, the Baez deal, etc. etc. Ruben Amaro is not a good general manager, and is EXTREMELY LUCKY that he gets to operate on a team with a giant payroll that can absorb the repeated mistakes. Eventually, however, they come back to bite you in the ass.

      • Posts: 5429 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Wow, I feel like I just read the Magna Carta, or at the least – four posts at once, or maybe it’s just the tryptophan !

        I agree with paragraphs 1,2,and 4. But we’ve had our paragraph 3 argument before, and today is not the day for that, Happy Thanksgiving Eric !

      • Posts: 0 Dave

        @ericL-You do raise some valid points that are worth responding to. I guess you could argue Howard’s contract is a couple Mill high but it is in line with other top power guys. But if you can name 7 legitimately better first baseman than Ryan Howard, I’d liek to hear them.

        We would all obv rather have Pujols. But as much as I’d love to play Fantasy Baseball and have a hall of famer at each position, I live in reality and will ‘settle’ for what we have. And that’s a legitimate World Series Contender every year since 2007. No need to bring up the deep pockets. Look no further than the Mets, WhiteSox, Cubs and recent Red Sox to see how tough it is to put out a consistent contender, even with money. That’s 4 of the top 7 teams in payroll.

        So before you say we could have gotten Pujols just when Howards contract was expiring, remember…most experts felt Pujols would get locked up by St Louis. And if the Brewers hadn’t gone on an improbable run in ‘10, it was a foregone conclusion that they were trading Fielder like the Padres did with Gonzo(where you have to give up a package of prospects…then sign him to the monster deal). So it was looking like the big-ticket 1B free agents would be locked up. With the Orioles, Blue Jays, Marlins, Nationals, and Dodgers all desperate for a big name this yr, what type of salary would you honestly expect Howard to get this year?

        Obv Lee wasn’t traded directly to get Halladay. I guess I could have spelled it out but I figured most people on here understood that Ruben felt he needed to trade Lee to get the prospects to be able to get Halladay. I didn’t defend the Lee trade. I said you can see why he felt it was necessary. But instead of just making the trade and moving on….he went out and made up for it by signing him and at a discount. So why are we still talking about it? If we can admit that no GM is going to perfect, than his ability to completely atone for the trade has to be recognized.

        Arguing the deadline deals is absurd. All of his trades, From Sweeney to Halladay, have been widely considered very good trades(exception Lee). They got Oswalt for cheap (Astros even paid half Oswalt’s salary). Hats off for that. As for the Pence deal, I guess if you were satisfied with the Phillies offense before that deal, then we saw it different. Would you be satisfied with that same offense going into 2012…minus Pence?

        I really hate the Pap signing too. Def with you there. Calling it mishandling of D Brown is slightly hindsight. They thought he was ready for the next level, he wasn’t…happens all the time and if they didnt give him a shot, we would prob be screaming on here for them to do it. The rest of the stuff you name is pretty minor. I would like to hear a GM that you feel does a good job. Bottom line is we have a shrewd GM who consistently pulls the trigger when needed. The more moves you make, the more mistakes you are going to make. That’s basic Math. There’s plenty of GMs that limit their moves and therefore can’t be criticized for being wrong. With Ruben, the good deals far out weigh the bad and has to be considered one of the best in the game.

  • Posts: 0 Dave

    I wasn’t a fan of the Ibanez signing at the time either. But if you look at his overall production, he did perform close to the value of the contract. He just was not consistent at all which made him very frustrating. Overall the signing was not great but not awful either.

  • Posts: 5429 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    @Dipsy- So it was not that far fetched after all! Happy Holiday to you my friend.


    • Posts: 1048 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      It’d be funny in a scootenfruity kind of way if he reneged and accepted arbitration.

      I know that’s what I would do if I were Ibanez, since there’s no way he makes that kind of money on the FA market, even if he’s able to get a multi year deal. At best he’s looking at a one or two year deal in the AL to be a DH/bench bat for like tops of 3-4mm/yr. And probably not even that. I just don’t see how it’s in his best interest to turn down ten million bucks.

      (To get the reference in the first sentence, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3_DjiLLDfo )

      • Posts: 5429 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        “I just don’t see how it’s in his best interest to turn down ten million bucks.”

        That’s because you can’t see that the obvious move is not always the right one.

        I probably shouldn’t compare a story where 100′s of military personnel died to this one, but let me just share it with you. My father, who fought in the “Battle of the Bulge” in WWII in below freezing conditions with improper weather gear, was on the front line when one day his C.O. asked if anyone of his troops could type. My father said he could, and was transported to a safe, dry, warm HQ three hours away to substitute for a guy that had fallen sick. A few days later, they were so impressed with his work that when the guy was ready to return, they gave my dad a choice to continue working there, stating they would ship the other guy out in the cold to fight. It was very, very tempting, but after getting a look at the sickly guy, my father decided that guy would never make it out in the harsh conditions fighting for his life every day. Dad went back out, and not 2 days later the HQ was attacked by air resulting in the death of everyone working there.

        The obvious move is not always the right one.

      • Posts: 2897 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        Nice story, Lefty. It truly IS all about karma…

        My son had a cool encounter with Raul when we went to Spring Training this past year. We were hanging out by the one parking lot where some of the players park and Raul was one of the last guys to come out of the complex. He was walking towards his car and stopped to sign for maybe 5 or 10 people at the fence. My son was a little late getting to the fence and Raul was walking away towards his car. My son called out, “Hey, Raul. One more?” Raul, who was by now at least 25 or more feet away from the fence and obviously kind of in a hurry, stopped and turned and said, “Sure. Why not.” My son threw him the ball, he signed it and threw it back.” …..

        ……Sounds kind of cornball and really….who cares, right?? Except that, to me, it illustrates a point about just how some people are in life. Raul is NOT going to renege on his “wink and nod” arrangement with the Phillies just to make a few more million at the end of his career. It’s just not in his DNA. In my view there will be so many more opportunities for him down the road, not necessarily as a player, but just in general. Karma will be on his side.

      • Posts: 5429 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Thanks Chuck, it’s a true story. My Dad was always sad for those that died at the temp. HQ, but of course thankful that he didn’t, and then somehow made it through the rest of the war.

        I agree with your perception, and believe that there are still some that are not driven only by the almighty dollar. After receiving 31 million dollars over the last 3 years, and who knows how many million prior, you have to wonder how many millions one man’s family needs. At what point does it stop being “not enough”?

        Quite simply, the man never has to work for the rest of his life, he’s set. And I go on record with you in the belief that he will not break his word. (If the wink and nod are what happened)

  • Posts: 0 KH

    I still think part of this so called handshake agreement is that the Phillies will bring Ibanez back if he gets no offers. He will decline arbitration and the Phillies will sign him. Doesn’t anybody think there is a possibility that no one wants Ibanez. I wouldn’t trade a pick in the first couple of rounds of the draft for an old bum like Ibanez. Luckily there are tons of stupid teams but I can’t get it out of my mind that Ibanez may be back on this team. In a sane world he would be because nobody would sign the guy at the cost of a pick. Raul is only helping the Phillies if someone else wants him.

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