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Poll: Grading the Papelbon Signing

Posted by Pat Gallen, Sat, November 12, 2011 04:55 PM | Comments: 56
Analysis, News, Poll, Posts

Photo: Foxsports.com

It’s simple – put a grade on the Jonathan Papelbon contract with the Phillies. How do you feel about what has gone down over the past 48-72 hours. Will you welcome him in with open arms? How much will you miss Madson?

Let your voice be heard with a vote.

What grade would you give the Jonathan Papelbon deal?

View Results

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About Pat Gallen

Pat Gallen has written 1668 articles on Phillies Nation.

Pat is Editor-in-Chief of Phillies Nation. He also covers the Phils for 97.5 FM in Philly.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 800812

    His annual salary is the same as Lidge’s was as closer. We needed a closer. We got the best available. Sounds reasonable, if you think about it.

     
    • Posts: 0 John

      They jerk Madson around for 6M less.
      At least we know what we have with Madson. Papelbon has gotten worse over the past 2 seasons…….

       
      • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        That is not a true statement. her got worse from 2009-2010, 2011 he was very good. But 2011 was also a contract year. God only know what we will get out of him.

         
    • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

      It’s really unreasonable when you think about it. You want to use Lidge as your example? Was the 2009 and 2011 Brad Lidge worth $12 million a season?? Long term deals to closers almost never turn out favorable to the team.

      The 2012 and probably the 2013 Papelbon are not the issue. The issue will be the 2014-2016 Papelbon. What an awful contract.

       
    • Posts: 0 Dave Lerch

      Agree, he is a proven closer with a lot left in the tank. Good move.
      We got our closer and need to move on now and improve the Offense!

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Two things. First, “Proven closer” means nothing. Going into this season Craig Kimbrel and Ryan Madson were not proven closers. In fact, Madson apparently didn’t have a “closer’s mentality” according to a lot of the pundits in this town. Guys with excellent pitching ability are desirable. Where they’ve pitched in their careers to that point is irrelevant.

        Second, how can you possibly know he’s got a lot of gas left in the tank? Just as an example, when Brad Lidge signed his 3/36 extension in 2008, he had thrown 462 innings and was 2 years older than Papelbon is right now. It was after that season when Lidge started to experience the multiple arm problems that derailed his 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons, destroying Lidge’s velocity and location, and generally making that contract terrible. To this point Papelbon has thrown 395.1 innings, which means he’ll arrive at the 462 area after this season, when he’ll then be 32. Who’s to say that he doesn’t experience similar problems? Now, he’s hat a relatively healthy career, and Lidge had previous problems, so it’s not an exact parallel, but you can’t just state that a power pitcher on the wrong side of 30 has plenty of gas left in the tank. It’s an unknowable attribute, and one of the reasons contracts of long lengths for pitchers are often perilous, and why the Phillies had traditionally preferred to keep pitcher contracts to three years or less.

         
  • Posts: 426 Publius

    Avatar of Publius

    Gonna go with “unsure” until we see how the rest of the offfseason plays out. If Rube can still get Rollins and extend Cole, even with this contract, then I will tepidly support it. If either/both of these things fail to happen, then it’s an unmitigated disaster.

     
  • Posts: 0 adam

    i love it personally hes got more closer experience and hes done it in the postseason. i wasnt fully sold on madson he always looks scared and his fastball velocity has gone down over the years plus i dont like scott boras clients they usally shit the bed after 1 career season and signing big deals just like jayson werth and rafael soriano

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Well, Papelbon does have some post-season success. So does Madson. Although I would point out that this season JPaps blew the final and biggest game of the season for them, so he didn’t have a chance to pitch in the 2011 post season.

      As for “Madson he always looks scared” well, that’s just nonsense. Papelbon always looks like someone has replaced his mouth with an anus, and that information is about as useful as your armchair psychologists reading of Mad Dog’s mental status from the comfort of your couch by reading his facial expressions through your TV.

       
  • Posts: 0 800812

    John, you’re wrong. Papelbon’s K and walk rates have both improved. He’s a much better bet than Madson, moving forward.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Maybe, maybe not. But when pitchers start to age, they lose their velocity first. Take a guess as to which of these pitchers is going keep his effectiveness longer:

      Pitcher A: Fastball 55%, Changeup 35%, Cutter 8%
      Pitcher B: Fastball 75%, Split 15%, Slider 10%

      Hint: At age 40, Trevor Hoffman put up a 2.98ERA/2.94FIP, throwing 60% Fastballs, 34% Changeups and 6% sliders.

       
  • Posts: 31 Gavin

    Avatar of Gavin

    I think a lot of people wouldn’t think this was such a bad contract if it was for Madson. Sure, it’s still a lot of money and it’s way too many years, but if it was Madson, you signed someone who has been with the club for a long time and that makes the money count less.

     
  • Posts: 0 BART SHART

    Papelbon was the best reliever on the market based on age, experiece and results. He could become a future HOFer. Madson, good but not that good.

     
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  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    Well who is going to hear our voices RAJ wont read this…lol…I went with Unsure Papelbon is slightly better than Madson but not by much. I would of went with a 2 year 22 Mill we possibly have some up and coming studs on our own that are probably a year away. The Phils need to do what the Braves do invest in Venters and Kimbrel type for bullpen more.

     
  • Posts: 1 Linda Lane

    I DON’T BELIEVE THIS WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO NOR DO I BELIEVE IT WENT DOWN THE RIGHT WAY EITHER. RYAN SAVED ALOT OF GAMES FOR THE PHILLIES THIS PAST YR & MOST FELT GOOD WHEN SEE SAW HIM TAKING THE MOUND. I DON’T KNOW WHY IN THE HE** THAT BORAS GUY IS BEING ALLOWED THE SCREW UP THE TEAM OUT OF GREED. WE WILL REALLY MISS HIM NEXT YR & THEN IT WILL BE TOO LATE. PLEASE DON’ T LOSE JIMMIY THE SAME WAY.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Are you related to Lois Lane? Did Clark Kent break your caps lock key?

       
  • Posts: 887 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    To me it is not a question of who is better Pap or Madson or if a closer is worth 12 million dollars. It is did the Phillies really need an “elite” closer, and could the spend the money better in other places. I have stated before I think you could take a flyer on a guy like Nathan, give the young arms we have a shot at pitching the ninth. This team has shown it is good enough to overcome injuries, an offense that shut down for weeks, and still run away with the NL east, they can get past a few blown saves in April and May. Even if you put a couple of cards in Controus’ arm as a closer. I just do not think the phillies needed to spend that kind of money on a relief pitcher that quit honestly they do not need right now. Extend Cole sign JRoll. Would rather them over spend on a utility guy with a decent bat then the pay this even if it is the going rate for a closer,to a piece that can be found 100 times over a season

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    I said that yday Beta a combo of Bastardo/Contreras might had worked. We still up and coming Aumont, Schwimer, and a couple of others.

     
  • Posts: 4568 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    It’s a terrible spend. That does not mean I won’t enjoy watching him close games for the next couple years, especially as much of the NL gets to face him for the first time. But long-term it’s a terrible wasteful spend. This team under the stewardship of Mr Amaro is not being well served.

    That said, only a physical exam stands in the way of the damage being already done. It’s spilt milk now, might as well try to enjoy him until he breaks down.

    Oh, and if what I’m reading is correct, get ready for long deliberate ninth innings. Shane will be shaking in his cleats wondering when/ if Papelbon will ever throw the next pitch.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Agreed.

      And yes, Paps takes forever to pitch, which sucks because that’s all the much longer that you’re forced to look at his anus-mouth scowl.

       
    • Posts: 0 George

      EricL: Are you a proctologist? You must have seen a lot of anuses to decide that Papelbon’s mouth resembles one. Or perhaps anuses are just a pleasurable pastime for you.

       
      • Posts: 2952 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        Maybe it’s because….baseball knowledge and eloquency aside….he acts like an anus sometimes.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Porn. I’ve seen lots of porn, so I know want an anus looks like. And it’s Papelbons mouth.

         
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    One thing about RAJ he doesnt think can we trade xyz player a year or 2 down the line. If our needs should change. He signs these contracts like Raul, Polly and pretty much is locked in. As the contracts are too long for too much $$ making the players non-tradable. Often involving players need their end of their careers.

     
  • Posts: 2068 Brooks

    Avatar of Brooks

    So, are you saying if we are to get 3 good years (consider Papelbon standards) from JP?
    Hey, I would be more than satisfied with 3 out of 4 years.

    Figure from JW’s contract, the Nats are 0/1 so far.

    It’s a crap shoot when you sign for any length of time, the team is bound to suffer.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Yeah, but when you sign cheaper guys the busts aren’t so big and the contracts are moveable. When you sign the top of the market guys to gigantor contracts those become immovable and you’re stuck with them for the length of the contract when they blow up.

      That’s not to say that every player on your team should be a cheap compromise, but it is to say that contracts should be held in check to the best of your ability. Amaro doesn’t believe this, apparently, because he overbids for guys that aren’t in huge demand or have little leverage, and adds unnecessary years. Some contracts will always blow up, but if you make a habit of offering guys big-assed deals, you’re going to have more nasty contracts than most teams.

       
    • Posts: 0 George

      Yeah, when you sign cheaper guys the busts…

      True, but those cheap guys generally are more likely to be busts. That’s why the rich teams are willing to pay a premium.

      If it’s “not to say that every player on your team should be a cheap compromise,” you still have to figure out which players should or shouldn’t be. We can’t know for sure if the front office overbids without knowing what the player is actually going to get somewhere else, and when you get down to it, only the contracts that don’t work out are overpays.

      I don’t totally disagree with you about big contracts. I just think you fail to comprehend that Amaro has to make choices and wouldn’t add years if he didn’t feel he needed to get the player that will probably make the most difference.

       
  • Posts: 0 PhilliesPhans_Rock

    Don’t like the deal. Not to take anything a way from Papelbon whom I guess is a pretty good closer although I’m not terribly familiar with his pitching. With that said my problem with this deal stems from Amaro;s end. I have not been a fan of his FA signings. IMO he gives too many years & money and this deal is no different. I look at Amaro’s “aggressiveness” as a gift and curse. While it’s certainly a change of pace from the Wade days, it’s also maddening because he seems to overpay just to get his “shiny new toy”. Also, I don’t get the “we needed a closer” argument. Really??? The reason why the Phils have not advanced further in recent playoff appearances has not been because of blown saves or because we did not have an “elite closer”. Furthermore the Phils just won 102 games in the regular season, so I cannot go along with this “getting a closer was essential” when in fact it was not. Certainly it was need that needed to be filled but it was not a priority.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Lidge certainly didn’t save games well in the playoffs except in 2008, the ONLY TIME the team went all the way. In 2011, Madson gave up a run in his save opportunity in the Hamels game, which would have been a blown save had the Phils been up by only one.

      When an offense is struggling, but the rotation isn’t, a team is going to be faced with a lot of one run games. Any team in such circumstances needs someone dependable at the end.

       
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    F.
    Completely unnecessary.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck S

    Closer was not the problem!!!! Where’s the $$$ for the hitting that the P’s are so sorely lacking and why they didn’t go further in playoffs. With their starters, closing games is not the first priority.

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr05

    Chuck their will be many 2-1, 3-2, games and RAJ knows it thats why he went with Papelbon. The year before he went with our guys had a down year BS. No our guys are just slowing down, injured and weaknesses have been exposed. They need to shuffle the lineup but how can it be done. Howard and Utley are ours to keep. If you dont sign Rollins unless Reyes is bought in we suffer at the point. We wont get much for Polly if anything. Who do you move and to where and how do you try and bring in

     
  • Posts: 0 Chris

    Papelbon is better than Madson but the money and years being devoted are terrible for the team. I don’t know what RAJ’s plans are for the rest of the offseason but I hope he doesn’t make the mistake of doling out 12 mill for a utility man that can’t play the positions you need him to. Maybe RAJ has some trades of starting players on the team up his sleeve who knows but I don’t think ownership will let him cross the luxury tax threshold so options are now limited. I think Papelbon was a waste of funds considering the other needs the money could have been put to.

     
  • Posts: 1135 EricL

    Avatar of EricL

    My opinion has been laid out in my responses to people in this and the last thread. You can guess where my vote fell because I’m not telling.

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    888 votes? I thought only Lefty and Brooks were reading me?

    To me its a 4-5
    Its moot.

    The pen was great last year and its easy to get players to fill roles. Just look at Bastardo and Stutes doing what they did last year for no money.

    Its really a diversion from the real issues with the Phillies. Which I am still waiting to see addressed. And have been since about month 2 of the 2010 season.

     
  • Posts: 2952 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Like I said yesterday in the other thread…..if the Phillies win just one WFC during the time of this contract…..then this contract will be worth it. That’s the way you have to look at baseball economics in what is now a large-market town. The old days are over whether we embrace it or not.

    I don’t like the money or the years any more than the rest of you. But that’s what it takes to get a premium late-inning relief pitcher or closer in this day and age. And when you have what is probably the best rotation in the game I think it’s absolutely necessary to have that big weapon to close it out. Taking a cheap “flyer” on Joe Nathan wouldn’t have worked for me.

    Will he break down? Maybe. Or maybe not. There is no crystal ball with any of these guys, pitcher or position player.

    And for those that are so down on RAJ….since he took over as GM, the Phillies have won 3 straight division crowns and a pennant. Three straight championship-caliber teams. The fact that they didn’t advance beyond where they finished isn’t Ruben’s fault. Ruben has earned our trust…well, at least mine…..and, until he proves otherwise with a few years in a row where we don’t reach the playoffs, I will continue to support his management of the team AS A WHOLE.

     
    • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

      Chuck – In regard to all the praise that RAJ gets (winning divisions, etc.):

      I know that you already know this, but team that RAJ inherited was built by other people. The nucleus was put together by the much maligned Ed Wade and the final tweaks were made by Gillick. Since they were WFCs, RAJ has made a series of signings and extensions that don’t make a lot of baseball sense. The Ibanez, Polanco, and Baez free agent signings and the Howard and Blanton extensions were all very questionable contracts. Even the convoluted way that the Cliff Lee saga unfolded was weird. They couldn’t afford that $9 million in 2010? Really?

      In 2015 Lee (age 36), Howard (age 35), Papelbon (age 34) will be guaranteed over $62 million. Having three players well into their decline making that amount of money will be a disaster. Even if they had a $200 million payroll by then, that’s over 25% of it tied up with three players. It makes no sense to me to tie up that much money to players with diminishing skills. We’ve already seen how rapidly Howard is declining and it’s a safe bet that Lee and Papelbon won’t be the same pitchers by then either.

       
      • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

        Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

        RAJ also brought in some pretty darn good talent as well. While you are bashing him for Baez (rightfully so) lets not forget that Polly is not that bad. Lets think Gold Glove in 2011. Sure his batting AVG dropped, but he was injured part of the season. Was that age catching up to him, or an accident. The other horrendous deals that RAJ made are Halladay, Lee, Pence, Oswalt. Sure he made say he made a bad decision to trade Lee the first time, but were any of us in the organization to know exactly why we got rid of him?Was it money? Was it his agent at the time trying to work a deal than we, nor Lee were privied too? He also signed Hamels a few years back and kept him he as long as he has. Sure the Howard deal was horrible. That money and amount of years 2 years before the contract ever started? Ibanez I would say could have been worse. Ibanez ended up over that time period with better numbers than Pat Burrell. Who else was around. Jason Bay signed before Ibanez for far more than Ibanez. Matt Holliday was also far more. Who else in LF came on the market during that time…Manny Ramirez? RAJ is not horrible, and has made some very good decisions. But like every other human on earth, he has made some mistakes and bad decisions. I also find it funny when people say RAJ is so horrible because of the Baez deal, Howard extension and things like that, but completely fail to see that he traded for Lee, Halladay, Oswalt, Pence, then go Lee back when he realized his mistake. We also have no idea where these contracts will go in the future. Will they continue to go out of control? For all we know in 3 years, 12 Million for a closer, and 20-24 for a Starting Pitcher will be completely normal, and in 4 years, Paps final year, we may be talking about 15 Mil a year for a closer instead of 12. But we also could see a dramatic drop in salary (HIGHLY unlikely). Ruben much most fans have a win not mentality. He makes the deals to win now. Many fans want him to make deals to win now, but we do not hae luxury of seeing the books, or being in the negotiations to know what is really going on. We do not know the real reason why Lee left the first time. We do not know if RAJ never would have been able to get Halladay if Lee was not shipped. How do we know there were not back door deals of the other GM’s involved saying if Lee was not shipped away, they would not pull the trigger to ship Halladay to the Phillies. Was that Likely? No, but we will never know.

         
  • Posts: 2952 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    And another thing is that the Phillies rule of not going more than 3 years on pitchers went out the window when they signed Cliff Lee. That precedent….right or wrong….was clearly set. Cole Hamels WILL get 5+ years to stay here.

     
  • Posts: 4568 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    Chuck, and everyone else-
    Here’s my problem with RAJ. He reminds me of a sales manager I once had named Mark. When he took over our division at the end of 1997, we were a mildly successful unit. He pushed and pushed and pushed to obliterate every sales record imaginable. We loved him, we were working harder than ever, but winning every $ contest, gaining national recognition, and life was great.

    As a result of our extreme success, our sales budget/goals for the following year went through the roof, the goals were absolutely impossible to break, let alone achieve. We all suffered and didn’t make a bonus for several years until the goals had come back down to earth. Meanwhile, in November of 98 (the great year), Mark applied for promotion. and was granted it in January 99 for his great leadership/performance with our group. What occurred in 99,00, and 01 to us, is what I fear is going to happen to the Phillies. Mark had moved on and could care less whether or not his old unit struggled to earn a dollar, he was doing fine. If this fiscal irresponsibility leads to failure in 2015, 16- RAJ will be fired, and we the fans mired in his mistakes while he gets hired somewhere else, due to his former success.

     
    • Posts: 2952 Chuck A.

      Avatar of Chuck A.

      Well, maybe this isn’t a mistake. Maybe it will work out just fine. In fact, it has just as much of a chance of working out as not working out. And that’s the rub….it’s all a chance. But, like I said, he has my trust until PROVEN otherwise. And by that I mean more than one season of not making the playoffs or being a .500 team or however you want to define what would be a failure on his part.

       
      • Posts: 4568 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        I had a history teacher in 11th grade tell the class on the first day, that if there was one thing he wanted us to learn from our semester with him, it was that “history repeats itself, and that understanding history, learning from it was a great lesson”

        My personal history says this doesn’t work, and in terms of throwing large contracts/years at closers in general, baseball history agrees.

        In all sincerity, I hope this does work out, you know that about me. I speak what I feel, but there are times like now, that I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        I like Lefty’s allegories.

         
  • Posts: 576 Brian Sr. of CO

    Avatar of Brian Sr. of CO

    I would have to say Too many years, too much money. Horrible? It is hard to say right now. Seeing how Madson’s agent is the POS Scott Boras, it is not a stretch to believe that Boras walked away from the table, or demanded more. I would tend to think the Phillies offered 4/44 and Boras demanded more, but that is not being reported. It is just the Phillies and RAJ being deamonized. I would not be too surprised if Madson ended up going to Washington for 4/52 honestly. It has been pretty widely reported that DC and Boras get along very well, and they are willing to make horrible deals…aka Jayson Werthless deal. I am confident that this 4/50 is not as bad as the Werthless deal. Before I say it was a TERRIBLE deal, I would like to see where Madson ends up. If he signs for the same amount…As hard as it is to say, I would rather have Paps. If he signs for less, then this is idiotic.

     
  • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

    Brian – We’re a few years away from evaluating the Oswalt and Pence deals. You know that. If Anthony Gose (who Houston flipped to Toronto for Brett Wallace) turns into a perennial All-Star, will the Oswalt deal really be that good? Gose is now ranked as Toronto’s #2 prospect and just played in the AFL Rising Stars Game. Oswalt won 16 games in his short Phillies’ career. In the same regard, we don’t know if two years of Hunter Pence is worth losing a potential six seasons of Singleton and Cosart.

    I never mentioned having a problem with those deals, anyway. RAJ has been depleting the farm system the past few years, but they’ve been decent risks that a contending team has to take on occasion.

    It’s the allocation of so much payroll money to players who will be well past their prime that will ultimately kill them.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Philadelphia-Phillies-Cole-Hamels-Jonathan-Papelbon-free-agency-111211

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Why was the Pence deal a “decent risk that a contending team ha[d] to take?”

      They were in first place at the time and from May 23 to July 29 (From Utley’s return to the day they acquired Pence) the Phillies had the 2nd best offense in the National League.

      There was no reason to make that deal. They were already the best team in baseball, and gutting your farm system to be come the betterestest team in baseball is stupid if you understand how much variance exists in the playoffs. Further, while Pence is a good player, the amount of talent given up for him rivals that which was sent to Toronto for Halladay. There are only a few players in baseball who could honestly be said to be worth such a kings ransom, and Pence isn’t one of them.

       
      • Posts: 2952 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        There was a reason to make that deal. Domonic Brown wasn’t cutting it (and maybe never will). And let’s wait til these prospects ….cause that’s what they are…..pan out or not before we refer to them as a king’s ransom.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        No, it’s better to examine the prospects at their current value, because I’m not saying you need to keep them all until they’re 30. But if that level of minor league talent can fetch you other, more valuable pieces, then it’s dumb to move it for a lesser guy. Cosart and Singleton were both in various top 50 lists of prospects, which makes them extremely valuable commodities, regardless of where they are in 10 years.

        That’s why when I say what they sent to Houston was akin to the deal they made to get Halladay, it’s an indictment of the Pence trade. Nobody questions the Toronto move, because the guy they got back was the best pitcher in the game, and thus required giving up a lot of valuable prospects. The value they got back was equal to or greater than that which they sent away. Pence, on the other hand, while a nice player, is certainly not on that level. He’s a nice player, but he’s got a lot of flaws in his game, and thus I think you could have gotten a much better player for those prospects or you could have gotten Pence for much less. Which is part of why that was a bad trade (with the other part being it was unnecessary because their offense was still very good prior to the move but nobody wants to hear that because it seems to be at odds with what we think we saw. Cognitive dissonance 101.)

         
  • Posts: 2952 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Again…..If you want a top-shelf closer this is what it takes. Some of you think that it’s perfectly ok to have Joe Nathan as your closer. Fine. I can respect that. I just don’t happen to agree, that’s all. When you have the best ….or close to the best ….rotation in MLB it’s essential to have the best….or close to the best…. late-inning reliever as well.. Do you want Joe Nathan coming into the 9th inning of a 2-1 or 4-2 game in which Doc just threw 8 incredible innings??….or Jonathan Papelbon?? Or Ryan Madson if you want to make that case?? To me the answer is simple.

    Will this deal be a good one?? I have zero idea. But I’m willing to take my chances that Jonathan Papelbon….at age 35-36….can still be effective enough to warrant the signing.

     
  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    An individual move really can’t be judged on it’s own. It is an upgrade at closer. RAJ upgraded the LH bench bat. Let’s see what else plays out. PHils will gain a pick as well, but that only matters I’d they’ll spend on it.

     
  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    I should add $48 probably would’ve gotten it done.

     
  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    Eric has a point. Philadelphia could’ve given up a lot less for J. Carroll, a LOOGY and another bench bat. Then use Mayberry in RF. Some of Gillicks moves were small moves.

     
  • Posts: 1189 Manny

    Avatar of Manny

    I voted for “0-1: Good lord this was an AWFUL move” because, well, it was. Giving that much money and years to a RELIEVER is borderline insane –regardless of how good he is. The so-called “elite closers” list is ever-changing. Changes every goddamn year. After a shaky 2010, people were starting to question Papelbon and wanted Bard to take over the closer role…. that should give you an idea of how unpredictable this whole “elite closer” thing is. Add to that a very talented and deep FA class, and it’s even crazier. There’s something called supply and demand, you know…

    You are essentially paying too much for the value you’re getting, and it’s basically a given that he won’t live up to his contract.

    Now, if Madson ends up getting a very similar deal, I’ll take it all back and eat crow… But odds are that he’ll sign for less money and years, and with him over Papelbon our chance of success remains virtually unchanged.

     
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