Report: Madson to Sign with Reds
Posted by Pat Gallen, Wed, January 11, 2012 12:40 AM | Comments: 60
Analysis, News, Posts
Madson is likely on his way to Cincy. (PHOTO: NJ.com)
Hmm. Multiple reports surfaced Tuesday night that the Cincinnati Reds have agreed to sign former Phillies relief pitcher Ryan Madson to a one-year deal. According to Jim Bowden of Sirius/XM MLB Network Radio, it’s worth in excess of $10 million. Bob Nightengale of USA Today, it’s worth just $8.5 million.
This is certainly a departure from the beginning of free agency when it appeared Madson would be back with the Phillies on a four-year contract worth somewhere in the $44 million neighborhood. That contract never completely materialized, and now here stands Madson; about to ink a one-year contract with a mediocre team.
We don’t know the specifics of what did or did not happen between Madson and the Phillies, but Scott Boras may have cost his client a lot of money by playing hardball. If that report was not true, then this still makes the Phillies look pseudo-ridiculous for their handling of the closer position.
They signed Jonathan Papelbon to a very rich four-year deal when the market said wait. Now, it appears the Phillies may have overpaid for Papelbon – like way overpaid. Had they waited it out, which is not really Ruben Amaro’s strong suit, then they may have had a viable closer at a bargain-basement price.
That’s all in the past, however. If this report of Madson to the Reds is true, then we wish him the very best in NL Central. Just not against the Phillies.
Posts: 0 bacardipr05
Best of luck to Madson except when facing the Phils. Sad to see him go i knew he wouldnt be back here once RAJ went Cuckoo for Papelhead.
Posted: 12:52 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 3 PHriend
So, we get 13th pick and Supplemental, right? I think it’s quite a good deal for us.
But It’s kind of very very sad to let Ryan go. Good luck in NL Central. You will always be a philly in our heart
Posted: 12:57 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
No – the Reds pick is still protected, so the Phillies get the sandwich pick (around 40), and the Reds’ 2nd rounder (~72-75).
The number of protected picks changes from the first 15 to the first 10 NEXT year.
Madson was the Phillies’ all-time leader in relief appearances (473 out of 491 total games), and would have passed Roberts (529) and Carlton (499) for most total games in 2012. Who knows? Maybe he’ll come back at the end of his career to do that.
Would have preferred Madson over Papelbon, but Paps will be fine.
Posted: 10:39 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
(according to Jim Callis: http://twitter.com/#!/jimcallisBA/status/157108595983523840)
Posted: 10:43 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Official Major League Baseball Thread - Page 715 - Grasscity.com Forums
[...] Official Major League Baseball Thread Report: Madson to Sign with Reds | Phillies Nation [...]
Posted: 02:03 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Jobin
Thi is what bothers me about the age we live in now where we know absolutely everything, every moment of the day. Bottom line is Papelbon, the best closer available, is our closer. Who cares how much they pay him? It’s not our money and do you really think for a second that the money they paid him is preventing them from anything else? Sure, the Phillies will say it’s tight + they are in dangerous territory … But if a guy came along that they valued, you have to trust that this ownership group and this GM would make a deal. Stop complaining and nitpicking about everything – we have an awesome team in the best era of Phillies baseball in our lifetime. Enjoy it for cripes sake! I’ll leave you with three names: Tom Marsh, Rob Ducey and Kyle Abbott. Remember those days? I hope you do. Look em up and be thankful for what you’ve got today.
Posted: 02:06 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 1878 Lefty
As a lifelong (almost 50 years) Phillies fan, i agree with you in principle sir. This is the greatest era of Phillies baseball. (although 1976-1983 was pretty good too) However there are several reasons Pat’s posting is correct and the money issue is important.
Do you like watching Cole Hamels pitch? The contract given to Papelbon could have put signing Hamels in serious jeopardy, due to the size of the contract Hamels will demand after seeing his team spend what could amount to $63 million on Papelbon, a one inning closer, an outsider, as opposed to a home grown World Series MVP. How would you feel about that if you were Cole? Wouldn’t you think your 220 innings of near masterful pitching are worth more than double what they paid him? But there is Luxury Tax threshold that the team must avoid going over, so every dollar overspent on guys like that do matter.
As far as the “Who cares what they pay him” I personally have been priced out of anything but SRO or nosebleeds, with tickets, food and parking. I’m in the middle of a financial crisis, barely making it. But if you have somehow averted that and your resources are plentiful, I would dearly love to see a game in the 100 or 200 section just once this summer. What do you say? I’ll pay for parking if you cover tickets and food. I won’t even drink expensive beer, one or two sodas will do.
Posted: 07:36 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 K. Burk
Use spell check much??
Posted: 02:20 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Mike N
The Reds do not look mediocre. The Reds worry me.
Posted: 06:08 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 11 Johanna
I hope he fires Scott Boras. What a shame.
Posted: 07:10 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Dave
That worked out well for Ryan. He gets 10 million and another shot at a long term deal next year.
Posted: 07:57 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 800812
What’s up with all the poorly-written articles here on PN lately? Was Baumann the only one who could write and spell correctly?
It’s getting annoying.
Posted: 08:11 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 1310 Pat Gallen
My apologies for all the screw ups. I wrote it half asleep at midnight.
Posted: 08:16 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 1878 Lefty
For 8.5m he should still be a Phillie, just a shame, real shame. How much would he have made if he took arbitration? I wish the best to Ryan Madson, and hope he will do better next offseason.
Posted: 08:19 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 TheDipsy
For 8.5 he SHOULD be a Phillie. Lefty, question…not to be smart ass, but……would you rather have a low priced team that sucks and you could afford all the tickets you want or would you rather have a perennial WS team with a high payroll that serves to price you out of a lotta games. I accept the latter. Watch em on TV dude and go to less games. Its called sacrfifice. :)
The Dipsy
Posted: 08:29 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 1878 Lefty
I too accept the latter, without hesitation.
That aside, your post below this indicates that you agree with me, Papelbon was a terrible overspend, and that was the real point of my comment. The lack of flexibility now under the LT, the fact they are talking one year with Hamels as opposed to an extension, it’s just not a smart way to run things. Sometimes you should shop at Genuardi’s.
Posted: 12:38 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 TheDipsy
And Pat, thank you. Ruben – WAIT! Ibanez, Moyer, Polanco, Papelbon.
Oh, to have Madson on a 1y 8.5m deal this year. It would have been awesome.
I don’t agree with the people, if there are any, that had no problem with Ruben, right out of the gate and without and regard for how the market would lay out, identifying the best closer and then giving him exactly what he wanted. Put this one is the “poorly played” column.
So what are we left with? A fabulous closer.
The contract is too big. He could have, SHOULD have, done better. That said, I have to say that his penchant for falling love with free agents at first sight and then lavishing them with all they want bugs the shit out of me, and in the long run, squeezes the payroll so that we may not be able to use the cash in other areas that are more important. This is Ruben’s glaring defect as a GM and someone should try and reign him in. Pat Gillick would have never made that signing.
But obviously, the brass is giving Ruben A LOT of money. And when you have a hammer like that, everything looks like a nail, as they say. Its ok to go to Genuardi’s instead of Whole Foods sometimes is all I’m saying. They have good merchandise there, too. And for less money.
The Dipsy
Posted: 08:45 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 George
Pat Gillick would never make that signing? Come on, now, Dip! The man who extended Lidge for three years at $12 million per, signed Eaton (who was obviously second rate even before he was signed) for for three years at $8 million per, and signed an over the hill outfielder for two years $11 million only to have to release him when Werth played so much better–you mean he really wouldn’t have jumped at a chance to sign another closer at $12.5 million per?
I’ll admit that Amaro seems to jump the gun, but don’t ever say that Gillick made better decisions, because he didn’t!
Posted: 09:12 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 284 EricL
Gillick wouldn’t have made that deal, if only because he wouldn’t have offered the 4th option year.
Posted: 12:33 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 George
Maybe not, Eric, but if Gillick drew the line at 3 years, he wouldn’t have signed Cliff Lee had he been GM. He’d have maybe signed Eaton again, or extended Lidge.
Seriously, though: times and parameters change, and even Gillick changed a little at the Phils’ helm. (He was at one time known as “Stand Pat,” because he never made trade deadline deals. He did as Phils GM.) He may have seen the trend lately toward locking in a player on a long contract, and actually done so himself.
I’m not saying he would have signed Papelbon, but without extra years there’d be no Lee, no Halladay option, and probably the loss of Hamels when he hits free agency.
It goes back to my statement that Gillick did not necessarily make better decisions than Amaro.
Posted: 10:45 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 George
What’s with the cross outs? Is Bowden’s report less valid than Nightengale’s? These are still just reports and neither will probably completely match the final announcement by the Reds.
No one really knows what happened in the initial negotiations between Amaro and Boras, but Boras has been a complete dirtbag in the past, so I suspect he overplayed his hand. Say what you will about Amaro misreading the closer market; it’s pretty obvious that so did Boras. At least Amaro got the most proven available closer while Boras got Madson a crappy one-year deal.
Posted: 08:53 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 40 branderson925
I don’t think this is the time to call out RAJ. As much as I hate him and the Sox, Papelbon is one of the marquee closers and has proven a lot more than Madson has in the closer role. That being said, I respect Madson a ton and loved him from his very first frustrating days here. I watched him through it all and it is tough to see him go (especially considering thats another piece of the 08 team parting ways) Well at least it’s not to a divison rival but still would have rather seen him go to the AL.
Posted: 09:01 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 phil
People need to stop crying about what we paid for the 2nd best relief pitcher in baseball. Did we over pay? Sure. Is it going to be detrimental to the team? Not at all. Don’t get me wrong I love mad dog and all but papelbon is light years ahead of him.
Posted: 09:48 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 284 EricL
Phail, with that post, you’ve showed me two things. First, that you don’t know how to evaluate pitching talent. Second, that you don’t know how a balance sheet works.
If the Phillies have $X amount of revenue, and $Y amount of payroll expenditures, overpaying players increases $Y. $X, however, stays the same. So you’ve depleted the money available to give to other players who might improve the team.
It’s really kind of simple. The more you pay one player the less you have for the rest. This is why Howard’s contract is awful, it’s why Polanco’s contract is very good and why Papelbon’s contract is excessive at best.
Posted: 12:39 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 GM
Eric,
You have also proven that you don’t know how a balance sheet works. The financial statement that you are referring to is known as an income statement. Revenues and expenses don’t appear on the balance sheet.
Posted: 02:16 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 284 EricL
No, I know how a balance sheet is constructed. (Incidentally, since we’re picking nits, I didn’t demonstrate that I don’t know how a balance sheet works, I just demonstrated that I didn’t know the proper definitions of income statements and balance sheets or that I made a mistake somewhere in the post)
I edited the body post after I started writing it because it didn’t make as much sense to list assets and liabilities in reference to the excessive expenditures of the Phils, and found it made much more sense to just illustrate the point with a simple listing of revenue to expenditures.
Mea culpa.
Posted: 02:58 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Don M
Genuardi’s is expensive…
Posted: 10:28 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 1164 Brooks
I just don’t think the Phils are at the point Lefty is concerned about. Yes, Paps contract is high and too long for a reliever but Paps is not just a reliever, he has consistently displayed a knock out talent that puts him in the class with only 1 other closer/reliever in the last 6 years.
Regarding not having enough to cover Cole’s contract – that remains to be seen. What would you consider too much at this point in his career? Is $17 mil a good starting point? Would he only consider Lee or CC money? At this point I think more depends on Cole’s character and desires than what Rube is prepared to offer. We cannot fault players like Werth who did decide that going for the $$ was best for him, and we definitely should not hold it against Cole if he finds someone to offer 7 years $140 mil (along those lines).
Posted: 11:29 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 326 Publius
Hahahaha oh my god Rube is such an idiot and this signing shows it. $8.5mil guaranteed? There is no way Papelbon is $4.5mil better than Madson. What an utter, total misplay of the market by an incompetent GM
Posted: 11:40 AM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Mike N
this
Posted: 12:20 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
13th pick is a very good pick. Should be interesting with the new slotting.
Tough to review the market in retrospect, but sure looks like RAJ over paid in $ and years. I think the Luxury tax threshold staying the same the next two years was a surprise.
Posted: 12:24 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 284 EricL
You’re right, the 13th pick is a very good pick.
Unfortunately, the pick the Phillies will be receiving is not the 13th pick. It’ll be more like the 45th pick–although probably worse if you consider the sandwich picks as well–as they get a draft pick directly before Cincinnati 2nd round pick.
Per schmenkman and Jim Callis ( https://twitter.com/#!/jimcallisBA/status/157131914271129600 ) – “To all those questioning Madson comp picks, I confirmed w/MLB that #Phillies get a sandwich pick and a pick before #Reds 2nd-rder. #mlbdraft”
So no first round pick for the loss of Mad Dog.
Posted: 12:50 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 George
This is not at all what I’ve read from other sources. As compensation for a type “A”, the Reds don’t lose their pick, but the Phils get a pick just before the Reda, and then get a sandwich pick.
I’m not saying either of us is wrong; I think it’s just that even maybe even the people who should know are totally confused by the new and improved/even stupider draft structure.
We’ll see.
Posted: 10:54 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 George
I should have read more posts. I guess the Phils don’t get a decent pick because of the Reds’ status in the draft. I can’t say I truly get the whole picture; I only get that some amazingly unfair and stupid things are happening with the transition to the new CBA., and that the Phils are the victims in almost every case.
Posted: 11:26 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Mazinman
In hindsight Ruben did not need to go so high with Papelbon but I can certainly understand his reasoning when he made the move. Sure there were a lot of closers out there but Papelbon is the only one who had a really strong track record as a closer in both the regular season and the playoffs. He figured the bidding would be highest for him and decided to try to avoid a bidding war. In the end we still have one of the best closers in the game and that is what matters the most.
I am not too worried about Hamels yet as they can probably work out some sort of backloaded deal when he starts getting his money when the Luxury Tax limit goes up.
Only 8.5 million for Madson? Wasn’t he set to make more than that if he accepted the Phillies offer of arbitration?
Posted: 01:00 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 558 betasigmadeltashag
You can not say the RAJ should have waited out the signing of closers after it all plays out it may be obvious that he overpaid slightly. But We do not live in a vacuum, if Pap was not signed you do not know how the chips may have fallen. Miami might have offered him a signable deal and everything would have changed. I do not have a problem with 12.5 a year I have a problem with the four years. But you do what you think is right. RAJ already has a number for Cole believe that, and signing Pap is not changing that number.
Posted: 02:22 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 326 Publius
I actually said at the time of the Papelbon signing that Rube should have waited, because even back then it was obvious that it was a massive, panicky overpay when so many other closers would be available for significantly less a financial cost than Paps.
Posted: 02:37 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 284 EricL
Agreed. There was a chorus of intelligent commentators who at the time expressed some dismay over the speed of the signing and the cost at which it came.
Posted: 02:59 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Don M
Is that the cost of making sure you get the guy you want, Papelbon, instead of a Plan B – Bell or Madson … and locking them up for enough years that you have the salary structure of your team settled in years going forward … instead of having to jump back into the closer market in 2013, 2014 … for whatever reason they love to know what their payroll is 4 years from now
Papelbon was expensive – but he was the guy they wanted and they made sure he didn’t get away … and it seems like the have the money to do those things lately …I only hope that they feel the same way about Cole Hamels
Posted: 03:57 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 George
I can’t say I was dismayed. I was surprised. I also thought the terms were a little bit risky.
But I also thought the closer market wasn’t going to go so totally down the toilet bowl, and I think it’s unfair to think Amaro could have known.
Of course, it’s possible it didn’t get flushed and that all those cheaper options will turn out like cheaper options usually do–they’ll suck.
I’m through being dismayed, surprised, disappointed, or anything else. What’s done is done. The Phils maybe paid more than they should have, but we won’t know for sure until the seasons play out.
Posted: 11:13 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 1878 Lefty
Well it certainly makes me glad that most are so confident that the Phillies management has the Hamels’ situation in hand. The Madson signing proves what many of us have been saying all along, that Papelbon was a massive overpay. But it seems my reasoning that the Pap signing will negatively affect the Hamels negotiations have fallen on deaf ears. Maybe the money tree is limitless, but from every different projection I have read that includes the entire 40 man roster AAV plus benefits, they are already pushing the limit of paying the very expensive Luxury Tax. I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong.
Posted: 03:00 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 605 Manny
Considering my favorite current Phillies are: Hamels, Madson, and Ibanez… not extending Hamels (because Amaro was too anxious to overpay Papelbon and blow up some serious $$$) would be a dagger into my Phillie heart.
Posted: 11:16 AM on January 12, 2012
Posts: 1878 Lefty
Sorry, this part got cut off somehow- In addition, what will Hamels demand after seeing his team spend what could amount to $63 million on Papelbon, a one inning closer, an outsider, as opposed to on him, a home grown WFC MVP. How would you feel about that if you were Cole? Wouldn’t you think your 220 innings of excellent pitching are worth more than double what they paid him? The way in which Amaro normally operates, this extension would have been done a while ago, instead of hearing him say things like “our first priority is shportstop, that can wait”, or the latest- “It takes two to tango”
Again, I’d be delighted to be dead wrong.
Posted: 03:23 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 davehist
Good luck to Ryan with the Reds (except when they play the Phillies). It still looks like he got poor representation from Boras and wound up with nothing like he should have gotten.
Posted: 03:26 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
Ok, at this date the Phils lost pick 31 by signing Pap. They get pick 39 (at this point) for Madson and a pick just before the Reds 2nd rd pick. Would’ve been pick 13, but reds have no 1st rd pick.
Posted: 04:41 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
The Reds do have a 1st round pick, but the first 15 are protected. The new CBA changes that to only the first 10, but not until next year.
Posted: 05:05 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 psujoe
Yeah, I guess I missed the special tranistion rules.
Type A rules will be altered for relievers Heath Bell, Ryan Madson and Francisco Rodriguez, and for position players Michael Cuddyer, Kelly Johnson and Josh Willingham. Even if those players’ former teams offer them arbitration, their new teams will not forfeit a Draft pick to sign them. Instead, their old team will receive compensation in the form of the pick immediately before the highest one they would have received under the old rules, as well as a supplemental-round selection.
Posted: 08:05 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 TheDipsy
Closers……are…..a….dime…..a…..dozen. They’re like hookers. If you need one bad enough, you know where to find one. Locking so much money in Lidge, then Papelbon, was and is STOO-PID. There is a reason Papelbon signed at 12:01 am, or whatever, the first day that he possible could. Its because he was totally bowled over. He didn’t even TEST the market. That should tel you how out of whack RAJ was with his offer. He and his agent are laughing their asses off as we speak.
What’s funny is that Boras tried to pit Papelbon v. Madson and make the Phils pick. The Phillies probably were close to giving Madson, 4-44, which is even sicker. I think Boras told his cient the Phils would stick with “their” guy. Once the Phils, correctly, picked Papelbon, it was all over for Madson. Thus…..the gambit failed. What I DO like is that the Phillies shot Boras the big middle finger. It did stuck Ryan with a bad bad bad situation, though. I hope he doesn’t blow his arm out.
The Dipsy
Posted: 04:50 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 1347 Chuck A.
Genuardi’s?? Uhhh….they’re about to go out of business. 16 stores bought out by Giant.
as for Paps, He’s gonna awesome. Enjoy it.
Posted: 07:01 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks
I see once again the Monday morning quarterbacks are out. Amaro got the best reliever on the market, no one can argue with that. So you think it went too fast and for too much. Tell me that the Marlins would not have gone for Pabelbon? You don’t know what the possibilities are. He got the best and paid for it. And by the way, less per year than Gillick paid Lidge.
Posted: 08:34 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 TheDipsy
Fine, the Marlins could have had Paplebon. I’d a taken Bell, or Cordero, or Bailey, or Madson, of the guy the Blue Jays traded. Or I’d have traded for a closer in spring training. Or in August. It would have gotten done. You don’t need to kill a fly with an elephant gun.
The Dipsy
Posted: 09:15 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
I think You’ll see a big drop in Bell’s numbers. His era is a full point higher away from the grand canyon.
Posted: 09:24 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Mazinman
As someone who is still traumatized by Joe Carter and Mitch Williams to the point where I cannot watch that entire game, by all means pay for the best closer out there.
Posted: 09:57 PM on January 11, 2012
Posts: 220 Bruce
Well..to read Madson’s agent, Scott Boras’ comments make it curiouser and curiouser (smile). I’m referring to this quote..
“It’s very simple. We never rejected any offer from Philadelphia at four years and $44 million. We advised Philadelphia that we would agree to such a proposal. And Philadelphia decided upon hearing that to go in a different direction.” Hmm..m
Well, anyway, wish Madson the best of luck with his one year deal. If as closer, he has great success with Reds, he will no doubt be rewarded a HUGH contract by the Reds’ management or as free agent after the 2012 season.
Posted: 01:18 AM on January 12, 2012
Posts: 0 TheDipsy
Hahaha. They’re not gonna pay him a big contract. They’re cheap. He’s auditioning for other teams.
The Dipsy
Posted: 08:00 AM on January 12, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
Hindsight gets better the further you look back. At this point Paps was a terrible deal. If he helps win a WS by dominating the deal will look better.
Posted: 09:23 AM on January 12, 2012
Posts: 40 branderson925
LOL at the guy who brought up Tom Marsh
hahah that was the only shred of a chance he would ever be brought up in any sense of relevancy.
Posted: 09:54 AM on January 12, 2012
Posts: 605 Manny
Just brutal. Horrific decision-making by Amaro here… Papelbon and Madson are basically a wash at this point. One gets 4-years from our GM, the other gets 1. Had he waited it out like he did with J-roll, we could’ve have either closer, for 3 years or less, for much less $$ per year. Seriously, Madson (OUR GUY) just signed with another team for just 1 year and $8.5 million. Ridiculous.
Posted: 11:11 AM on January 12, 2012
Posts: 0 TheDipsy
IF Madson would have asked for something like 3/28.5 or something, he would have gotten it IMO. But NO. He had to be a pig (its actually Boras’ fault). Madson has never spent a full season as a closer. WE know he can do it, but when you go out in the marketplace, ya gotta understand that other teams don’t see it that way. The Soriano/Yankees example is a GREAT illustration why you don’t give these types of contracts.
The Dipsy
Posted: 11:56 AM on January 12, 2012
Posts: 13 Moondog
The Phillies will be alright trust me. Not any Wharton School grads here I see. If you play with the big boys you will make a bad deal at sometime. You think the Red Sox and Yanks haven’t done anything stupid? The Cubs once had Zambrano, Soriano and Milton Bradley at the same time costing them millions with no chance of winning. Check out who the Dodgers are still paying for and for what? The Mets are still paying Bobby Bonilla. I can go on and on.
Posted: 12:18 PM on January 12, 2012