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Brown’s Insignificant Samples

Posted by Ian Riccaboni, Thu, December 27, 2012 02:46 PM | Comments: 69
Analysis

Bill Baer of Crashburn Alley wrote today of the Phillies optimum use of Domonic Brown: either give him 600 PA or trade him before he either loses his trade value or he becomes too expensive through the arbitration process. Brown, who has only 492 MLB PA, less than a full year’s worth, is entering his age 25 season with what appears to be the inside track on the starting right field job but is now suddenly surrounded by whispers of a double-platoon.

In Baer’s piece, he illustrates that Brown’s small Major League samples are about as statistically insignificant is you can get. For fun, and because his PA sample didn’t require me to do too much crazy math to find players with similar PAs, I looked at other players who were not initially shown a vote of confidence by Phillies management and Kevin Stocker, a pseudo-emergency call-up in 1993.

The graph above isn’t meant to indicate that Brown is or can be as good as Mike Schmidt, Chase Utley, or, heck, even Stocker. But it does help illustrate that for every Pat Burrell (good start with a steady career) there is a Ricky Jordan (terrific rookie year, barely above replacement level for the rest of it). Not everyone is going to hit the lights out right out of the gate like Burrell or Jimmy Rollins did, but it doesn’t mean they are chopped liver, either.

In full agreement with Baer, the Phillies need to, in Baer’s words, “[crap] or get off the pot” with Brown because he really has not had a true chance, whether it be because of injury (which is most of the reason) or because of lack of organizational faith. It goes without saying that Schmidt became among the greatest third basemen ever, Utley was among the top second basemen of the 2000′s, and Stocker, well, Stocker ended up with a .254/.338/.343 line in eight seasons, playing just above replacement level. The jury is rightfully still out on Brown.

Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

About Ian Riccaboni

Ian Riccaboni has written 804 articles on Phillies Nation.

Ian's athletic achievements include getting stuffed by NBA center Aaron Gray in high school and hitting .179 over four years for NYU against D-III, NAIA, JuCo, and NCBA schools. Ian hopes his athletic successes will help him achieve his dream of becoming the underground Bob Uecker.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 CS

    So drop all the talk of trades, bourne, etc and leave things be.

     
    • Posts: 0 wbramh

      Now that we have Sandberg again (and without having to give up talent in a trade), why not trade Dom to the Cubs and get back Fergie Jenkins and Grover Cleveland Alexander? Do we still have Omar Daal under contract? Maybe we can make a deal for Schilling.

      Okay. You’re right. No deal is better than a bad deal – or even a deal for a deal’s sake..
      Play Brown in right (if his hand is okay) and give left to Ruf.
      Nuff said.
      It’s not like they landed better talent to throw out there.

       
  • Posts: 1135 EricL

    Avatar of EricL

    Putting Utley “among the best 2nd basemen of the 2000s” is a huge understatement. He had the second best peak of all second basemen in the modern history of the sport, behind only Joe Morgan.

    http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/2/2/2715299/chase-utley-and-50-years-of-second-basemen

    He truly is a Hall of Fame-level talent. Whether he’ll remain productive for a long enough time period to get there remains to be seen.

     
  • Posts: 1135 EricL

    Avatar of EricL

    Oh, also, I can’t see the graph. It’s just a picture of a link to a google mail attachment.

     
    • Posts: 436 Ian Riccaboni

      Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

      Eric – does it show up now? Tried Google Docs for the first time to try to post it, not sure if it turned out right.

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Yeah, it’s good now. Thanks!

         
      • Posts: 436 Ian Riccaboni

        Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

        I hate new things. At least until I figure out how to use them and then they become awesome.

         
  • Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks

    Lets not forget two things:

    1. Brown has had a lot of injuries which has contributed to the small sample size.

    2. It was evident to all that he was a defensively liability in these small sample size episodes.

     
    • Posts: 0 William Rennick

      Charlie has spoken a few times about wanting to play Brown but being told Domonic wasn’t ready to go. Brown has had a lot of injuries over the past two years – if not the DL variety, it’s the nagging sitting out of games for 7-10 days type.

      He’s not a good fielder no matter which OF spot they play him, but they could live with that if he ever became an offensive threat. It makes me wonder how he ever got the overused “5 tool player” tag.

      As far as trade value, one MLB scout said last season that you “might” be able to get a middle relief pitcher back in return. He value has really taken a hit.

       
      • Posts: 828 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        I don’t know (or at this point, don’t know that it matters much) how or why scouts called him a 4-tool player (his defense was always called below average).

        What I do see so far is improving play in the field and on the bases, and a combination of plate discipline and decent power at the plate (in spite of the break of the hamate bone, which is said to sap power for the first year afterwards). That combination in a young player usually translates into a good hitting career.

        In addition, while the results at the plate so far haven’t been spectacular, here’s a list of players who have hit about as well as Brown (and some not as well) over the last two years:

        Brett Wallace – 99 wRC+ (100 is league average)
        Danny Espinosa – 99
        DOMONIC BROWN – 96
        Cameron Maybin – 96
        Pedro Alvarez – 95
        Justin Smoak – 94
        Mitch Moreland – 92
        Dustin Ackley – 90
        Mike Moustakas – 88
        Delmon Young – 88
        Colby Rasmus – 87

         
  • Posts: 0 Tom Gaitens

    I agree Ian, on both counts…
    Either trade him before the season begins, maximizing his value
    or
    pencil him in to play full time in RIGHT…be july we will know if the kid has what it takes…if we are in contention, he likely will be showing some staying power, if we are not, he will likely be one of the many reasons–low production from a corner outfield position…

    Lesson learned

    FWIW…i would offer a package of three young talented pitchers (including May, only two), Brown and perhaps Galvis for Stanton…he could be that good…this kid has all the tools
    i can dream can’t i

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      hey Tom. Couple quick questions: Why would the Marlins trade Giancarlo Stanton, and if they would consider trading Giancarlo Stanto, do you think that there are other teams in baseball with much deeper farm systems that would also be interested in acquiring him?

       
      • Posts: 0 Tom Gaitens

        ericl, I said it was a dream…i was not offering a reality, rather a dream. But, to answer your questions, No I do not think the Marlins would trade GS, nor would they trade him inter-division. Second, yes, assuming they would consider trading him, yes many clubs have more to offer

        ok…now off to bed to dream of Terri Hatcher in her prime and CS playing Right

         
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr

    Speaking on my behalf all this stems from a bunch of question marks in the OF. For the past several years we been accustomed maybe even spoiled some on having a known veteran star studded OF. Shane, Raul, Werth, Burell, Rowand. This year we are entering with Nix as the only known commodity. Even Revere himself still to a extent doesnt have a lengthy track record. If Brown, Ruff or even bomb out we in trouble. I think most Phillies fan would be at ease if we had another veteran to that OF.

     
  • Posts: 5143 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    I can’t see the graphs, but I’m pretty sure I get the point.

    I think it also works both ways. Bill can say the Phillies need to either s–t or get off the pot, and I agree with that part, but IMO he’s leaving something out. – The same can be said for Dominic Brown.

    No more excuses, no more outfield adventures, and hopefully no more freak injuries- it’s time to put up or shut up. The Phils need to give him his opportunity and he needs to take advantage, -now. After a full season this year, his sample size won’t be this small anymore.

     
    • Posts: 0 brooks

      Let’s just put a number on it for Gods sake – July? If he is hitting less than .250, does not have at least 10 hrs or 30 rbi playing full time by the AS break can we say all done?? Please!?!?!?

       
      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        Not necessarily.

        Let’s say he’s hitting .247 with 18 doubles, 5 triples, 8 HR, and 40 walks in 340 plate appearances.

        That would be a .247/.335/.420 line (.755 OPS)

        I would like more, but that’s not bad production from a cheap 25-year old in his first full season. It would be a clear sign that he can hold down the position and free up money to spend on other needs.

         
      • Posts: 5143 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        No, I’m afraid they can’t. The have 84.5 million dollars tied up in 4 players in 2013. That’s 20 milllion more than several entire ball clubs, and near equal to several more.

        The Phillies have to have SOME guys in their first 6 years be good players to make up for that. There may be a TV contract coming, but it’s not here yet.

        Dominic Brown, Ben Revere, and maybe a guy like Darin Ruf can beat the long odds against him- These guys have to play, and hopefully play well.

        And I don’t think I’m assuming RA Jr. is under budgetary restrictions, I think his moves or lack thereof have made that abundantly clear.

         
  • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

    I’ve been making similar arguments in conversations with friends. dom brown needs to stay in the majors and play every single day in the outfield. keep running him out there. if at the all star break he is hitting .220, maybe we can call him a bust, but you got to give him a chance. I cant believe all the people that already are declaring him a bust. despite having barely been given a real chance. and also despite the fact that his numbers are not atrocious.

     
  • Posts: 0 Betasigmadeltashag

    I admit to not being a big fan of Dom and agree that he does need to play every day and see if his potential comes out when he knows he will be in the line up every day and gets consistent ABs. I did see a more adiquite defense player last year. And the five tool tag should be four 1. Great Arm 2. Speed 3.has power 4 hit for average. These are things he was supposed to have or be able to do. And you never know the inconsistent playing time may help him have a break out year

     
  • Posts: 0 George

    The talk of a platoon is still only talk, and I think Brown will be playing more than a lot of people think. For one thing, most pitchers are right handed, and Brown is left handed. For another, I think management knows it’s high time they figured out what Brown can/can’t do, and that they’ll need to see him play a lot to know for sure.

    Brown most likely won’t be used every game, but I think he will be used enough to prove himself one way or the other.

     
    • Posts: 828 schmenkman

      Avatar of schmenkman

      He also hits LHPs almost as well as RHPs.

      2011-12 in minors:

      vs. RHP: .840 OPS
      vs. LHP: .791 OPS

      2011-12 in majors:

      vs. RHP: .737 OPS
      vs. LHP: .653 OPS

       
  • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

    I can see a scenario in which Brown sees 600 PAs this year if Ruf is a total bust. In that case Revere (who still might not be the real deal) and some combo of Mayberry and Nix fill out the other outfield positions. Bill James does project him at a .792 OPS with 77 RBIs, which, I believe, no Phillies OF was able to eclipse in 2012.

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Revere not being the “real deal” depends, I think, on a person’s definition of “real deal.”

      So far, Revere has definitely proven himself as a defender, has shown good plate discipline, ability on the basepaths, and has hit pretty well, too. He just doesn’t have any power.

      If “real deal” involves hitting home runs, Revere will never be that. If it involves having decent ML skills all around, I think he’s already proven himself. He’s had far more opportunities than Dom Brown.

       
    • Posts: 0 lou possehl

      Proven defender … good plate discipline … ability on basepaths … hits well …

      Hmmm – reminds me of some guy named Ashburn.

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Uh, no.

        Whitey’s age 23-24 seasons:
        .324/.383/.415, 56 2B, 19 3B, 6 HR, 113BB/69K, 43 SB, 6 CS, 9.7 rWAR/10.3 fWAR

        Revere’s age 23-24 seasons:
        .281/.322/.327, 22 2B, 11 3B, 0 HR, 55 BB/95K, 74 SB, 18 CS, 3.1 rWAR/5.4 fWAR

        Whitey had a better average, on base percentage, hit for more power, had a better eye, struck out less, had a better SB%, and was all around better in just about every aspect of the game.

        Ben Revere is a young Juan Pierre, not a young Richie Ashburn.

         
      • Posts: 89 loupossehl

        Avatar of loupossehl

        While no one in his wildest dreams is going to put Revere in the Ashburn category, the similarities are there. What we have is a CF with no power but who can run, field his position, steal bases, has good plate discipline and will (hopefully) hit for average and cause a lot of problems for the opposition once he gets on base.

        Saying that Ashburn had more power than Revere has is kinda like saying that my wife has a better right cross than I do (the veracity of which I do not dispute, but you see where I’m going with this).

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        Lou,

        I appreciate your positivity on Revere, but maybe we oughta see him take on his first full year of playing time (safe assumption) before really throwing the superlatives around. Especially since at least for myself, it’ll be my first year seeing how much his ability to cover ground offsets his near unanimously thought of weak arm. The list of Ashburn models is long. Brings to mind the Sid Mark line of “often immitated, never equalled.”

         
      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        Agreed, neither one has (or had) much power, but just to put it in perspective:

        In 1950-51, there were 143 players with 500+ at bats, and 23 of them had less power than Ashburn — basically 1 out of 6. (based on ISOlated power, which is simply Slugging minus Batting average)

        In 2011-12, there were 304 players with 500+ at bats, and *none* of them had less power than Revere.

        Or, another way of looking at it, Ashburn’s ISO in 1950-51 was 70% of the league average (.091 vs. .130).
        Revere’s ISO in 2011-12 was 31% of the league average (.046 vs. .148).

        Which is a problem for Revere, in that pitchers have no incentive to ever throw him anything but a strike. The risk that he’ll get on by a walk and wreak havoc on the bases is much worse than whatever damage he is likely to do with the bat.

        And that will make it tough for his to get on base much, barring a very high batting average. For example, given his walk rate, if he hit .341, his OBP would be .378 (which happens to be Utley’s career number).

         
      • Posts: 89 loupossehl

        Avatar of loupossehl

        Ken -

        I forgot about “weak arm.” My memory might be failing me, but isn’t that another Ashburn similarity?

        Perhaps it was that Ashburn’s merely didn’t have a strong arm (as opposed to falling into the “weak” category) … I just don’t recall. I’ve seen comments here that, in terms of arm, Revere might be in the Juan Pierre category – a scary thought?

         
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    I would think, barring injury, RF is Brown’s to lose. The tell is letting Scheirholtz go for zilch. It’s Ruff/Revere/Brown with Nix and Mayberry(or the Rule V guy). I for one am excited to see the young guys give it a run.

     
  • Posts: 0 CS

    Cute.

     
  • Posts: 0 JMills

    Phillies need model what the Braves did with Heyward. They stuck with him thru a horrible second year and he bounced back nicely in 2012. I see them as similar type players.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      Although I look at the Dom Brown topic pretty positively, the following comment doesn’t match up with thyat.

      The Braves were patient with Heyward through what sounded like a pretty hampering shoulder injury. If not for that limitation, his year might have brought about a different reaction had the results been disappointing without the shoulder issue

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Brown’s been hampered by a number of injuries as well. His legs were bothering him the 2nd half of last season, and his broken hamate bone sapped his power over the course of 2011-12, as it’s an injury that generally takes about 18 months to fully recover from.

         
  • Posts: 0 Mike in NJ

    I’m perfectly content to go with Ruf and Brown as full time corner OFs for 2013, as opposed to bringing in an over the hill overpriced JMJ clone to platoon. I think Brown’s trade value is already destroyed in any scenario that’s not a salary dump for the gaining team, so might as well give him 600 ABs if he can stay healthy, but unfortunately that’s a huge if…didn’t he hurt himself sleeping on the team bus last year FFS?

    Ruf can probably put up Burrell numbers and appears to have more power than any guy left they’d be able to sign or trade for other than Soriano, but Soriano would probably cost you Brown and another pitching prospect. No thanks. Besides, if you trade Brown for Soriano, who is your RF…Nix/Mayberry platoon? Oh boy.

     
  • Posts: 0 Matt

    No matter how Dom does the phillies will never be able to keep him, this is my least favorite thing about brown, he is a Scott Boris player. That in my opinion ,turns brown into a greedy money only type player.no heart….. I hate Scott Boris and I think he is bad for baseball, therefore I think less of any player who uses him as their agent.
    Other then that, brown seems to be chronic with getting hurt. For this reason, I do not think he will ever be a all star. I’d like to see him do great this year, but sadly if he does or if he doesn’t he will always be a Scott Boris player , which will cause issues in the future

     
    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      “That in my opinion ,turns brown into a greedy money only type player.no heart”

      Like Ryan Madson, Elvis Andrus, Robinson Cano, Shin-Shoo Choo, Johnny Damon, Jacoby Ellsbury, Carlos Gonzalez, Matt Holliday, and all of the other Boras clients?

       
    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      I should have added, Brown has 5 more years of team control before Scott Boras enters the picture, when Brown becomes a free agent before the 2018 season.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        That’s not exactly true. Team control takes on a partial exit at the time of arbitration. Dom’s eligible in ’14, a sign of his not being as young or inexperienced as he once was. He could get pretty expensive before he’s a free agent. And if he does perform well, and the club wants to try to buy out the arb years, his agent becomes more of a factor early on.

         
      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        You’re right about buying out the arb years, and Boras would be arguing Brown’s side in the arbitration hearings.

         
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Wait, why can’t a player be good AND want to get paid? Are these mutually exclusive concepts?

      Baseball is a business. Do you think the Florida Marlins or LA Angels are paying Stanton and Trout what they’re worth, respectively? If teams get years of production from guys stuck on WAY below-market deals, why wouldn’t the players expect to get a piece of the profits their production has earned as soon as they get a chance?

      I really don’t get the whole “greedy player” thing.

       
      • Posts: 0 George

        I really don’t get the “greedy player” thing, either.

        I know if I had the talent, I’d want the most I could get for it, particularly if others of similar ability were already ahead of me on the pay scale.

         
  • Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks

    I’m with you Eric. As far as I know, teams sign contracts – they are not forced to. It is more a question of what teams do rather than players. Why should a player sign for less than they can get? So the owners of the team can keep more money?

     
  • Posts: 0 Matt

    Do you really feel any baseball player is worth the money they get? Most of us have spare our money just to go to a live game. They are all overpaid. Do I think they should be paid per performance,,,yes I do. But boras players are all overpaid.

    I will just admit I do not care for Dom brown. Too much hype,and he’s injured a lot. I’d like to see him turn that around, I just do not think he will be a impact player and take any control ,like Rollins did, he’s more of a go wit the flow player then a stand out in my opinion. I hope he proves my wrong tho.
    One last comment about boras,, he really doesn’t seem to like Philly very much, What happened with jd drew or how about Madison. And do any of you think Bourne is worth that kind of money,, I don’t. It agents like boras who push the limit higher and this is why teams worry about the lux tax, players cost too much, for to little.

     
    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      “Do you really feel any baseball player is worth the money they get?”

      On one level, obviously not. But on another, it’s a free market and if that’s what a team is willing to pay, then yes that’s what they’re worth. Also, as you probably know, players get paid peanuts — far less than what they’re worth — and then they hit free agency and are paid probably more than they’re worth. A team has to manage their entire portfolio of players, and some teams can afford to have more older, expensive players than other teams.

      And I don’t think Boras feels either way about Philly — it’s just business.

      As for Brown, you’re entitled to think whatever, but the hype isn’t anything he initiated. Over-hype is more something that happened to him, and raised expectations, probably more than it should have.

       
    • Posts: 0 George

      To answer the question about players being worth what they’re being paid, I’ll only cite other jobs. Many actors and actresses sometimes make more than $20M per movie, and can sometimes make more than one per year. Certain musicians make millions on one tour, and millions more on one album, even though some of them can’t play more than about six guitar chords and rely mostly on stage pyrotechnics, strange behavior and costumes, and their personal recording engineers.

      People are willing pay a lot to be entertained, and that’s really what pro sports are all about, too. If people didn’t want to watch these guys they wouldn’t be getting so much. It’s demand that always raises the so-called “worth” of things.

       
  • Posts: 0 hk

    Further to Shmenkman’s points, supply and demand are what determines the prices of tickets, parking and concessions at the game, not the players’ salaries. I don’t get the hate for Boras or the players who hire him. He just does his job well. He has never (to my knowledge) put a gun to a GM’s head and forced the GM to (over)pay the likes of Barry Zito or Rafaelq Soriano.

     
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    Here’s a radical idea…okay, a LIBERAL idea, anyway, triggered by multiple factors, and I don’t know how much interest the guy would have in it, but….

    I saw Glenn Wilson got a mention by a guy named Jack on here a couple days ago. Being one that seems to pay more attention to defense than most conversations drift towards, and in attempt to be at peace with the Phillies outfield puzzle, I started thinking a few weeks back about what level of overall production would be acceptable from the Phils corner positions, and realistically, my mind kept drifting back to Glenn Wilson. You talk about a strong throwing arm out of right field. I wish I could remember facets of the rest of his defensive game, but at least the idea is triggered by his arm. Several seasons of 10 or close to it assists means he couldn’t have been too shabby in things like reading and tracking flies.

    So I’m thinking about the questions in the Phils outfield from a defensive view, and I’m wondering why not bring in a Glenn Wilson as a spring training guest instructor to work with the outfielders. Maybe he sees a way to help Rever throw better, can be helpful to Dom Brown, work with Ruf as an outfielder.

    Wonder if Wilson would be interested. Obviously, Garry Maddox was a terrific defender and might serve similar purpose, but the Wilson angle sure would be fresh, and I haven’t seen many Phils play the field as well as him.

    Damn, that is freaking novel.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      20 assists, not 10.

       
    • Posts: 0 hk

      Ken,

      Wilson was great at playing that right field line at the Vet. I have memories of him playing caroms off where the wall jutted out and throwing out unsuspecting base runners at 2B or those trying to go from first to third. An interesting fact according to Wikipedia…On September 15, 1988, Wilson hit two home runs off Randy Johnson, the first two homers ever surrendered by Johnson. At the start of the following season (1989), Wilson again tagged Johnson for a homer. Of the first five home runs ever given up by Johnson, three came off the bat of Glenn Wilson.

      P.S. Nice job of paying homage to Phil Jasner.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        I went to that Wiki piece also, but really just to see if there was an indication as to his whereabouts today. That good stuff went right over my head. Wonder what Wilson thinks when he sees video of Kruk against Unit.

        That was a special time at the Daily News, when the likes of Phil Jasner and Dick Weiss were the young part of the staff.

         
      • Posts: 0 hk

        Agreed on the DN. I was also a big fan of Mark Whicker and Jay Greenberg before they left for bigger cities.

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        Mention of Jay Greenberg hit the curiousity nerve, and prompted me to recall who was the Flyers beat guy before him. Shame on me for not remembering Bill Fleischman (sic) without google help. As I recall, both Jay and Hoops Weiss went to the NYDN right around the same time. But I maybe way, way off on that.

        I basically remember liking Whicker. Not to the level of a Stan Hochman, but remember liking more of his articles than not. Whicker went to the Orange County Register, where it must be 35 years now for him. I don’t check that paper too often, and over the years found his articles less magnitizing when it was on less “local” subjects.

        Course at the same time as many of these names we’re tossing around was gosh…how can I justly describe Gary Smith who handled the Eagle beat in Little Dictator Days.

        I only remember Whicker as a columnist, never on a beat. So it forces me to change categories and expand to describe him as the second best sportswriter to ever leave Philly for the LA market. I have often described Bill Conlin as the best baseball beat writer who will ever live. I include the word baseball in there because the Evening Bulletin had George Kiseda cover the 6ers either from the time they moved to Philly, or shortly thereafter through at least the 68-13 year. You were in the locker room when you read “The Silver Quill’s” game stories. I run across people my age who don’t remember George, and it’s sad. Even one guy who recalls many things from back then that I’ve forgotten.

        I’ve gone this far, I have to finish this. After George went to the LA Times, and I cannot even remember what he did there, one day, in the early 80s, some 12 years or so after he’d left Philly, I went into the sports department. And I can’t remember if I recognized him, or his name came up, but I went straight over to him, and whatever I said, it included a referene of “The Silver Quill.” It was beyond thrill to say hello to him, and body language and greeting style told me it was as exuberant an experience for him.

        I guess writers today are as talented, and possibly even more so with more from which to learn. But it seems so hard to standout with all the saturation. I feel really priveleged to have read some great ones, and although writing styles way, way back when were let’s say weird, not too far ahead of the names we’re dropping were younger versions of say a Jack McKinney or Sandy Grady that may have even been better than the guys I’m praising. I’ll take the guys I read in my most concentrated newspaper reading days with no regrets.

         
    • Posts: 5143 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Wait, what? Dominic Brown has an elite arm already, strong and accurate. So far it’s his most outstanding attribute. Don’t let anyone mess with that.

      http://www.businessinsider.com/video-domonic-browns-throw-has-the-baseball-world-buzzing-2012-8

       
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        If you took my point and decided to run with it to point out Dom has a killer arm, I have no control over that, but of the 3 names I mentioned, the only reference to the throwing arm portion of his skills was Revere. I don’t question Brown’s arm strength at all.

        If you go back to early in his career here, it’s pretty inarguable that on the whole, Dom was a sloppy fielder. Judging fly balls wasn’t a forte. It’s only once that I remember, but Jimmy had a pretty long talk with him about what base he should have thrown to on a particular play.

        I couldn’t sit here and offer a convictional opinion on just how improved he is in things like that a couple years later. I know he’s improved, but I certainly don’t think it’s to the extreme that he’s a premiere defensive player on the whole. So I think bringing in a defensive tutor for spring training might be beneficial, and Dom could easily be among those that get something out of it.

         
  • Posts: 0 CS

    No. Give him a full season. He’s had partial seasons before and if he trade value is shot now, we need to play him out on our own.

     
  • Posts: 0 Betasigmadeltashag

    I too saw some improvement on routes on fly balls from the limited play time of Dom. I think he has shown a learning curve for the better, we have to remember Dom did not even play baseball until he was 18. Though I have not a huge fan of the Dom hype I am looking for a break out year for the kid

     
  • Posts: 0 Skip W

    Would Delmon Young be a good fit for left field? I don’t much about him, except he might be a contact hitter and he must be better than Wells or Soriano.

     
    • Posts: 0 Devin

      Delmon Young is not better than Wells or Soriano. Or Ruf. Or Brown. Or Mayberry. Or Tyson Gillies.

       
  • Posts: 0 Skip W

    Nevermind …..My Bad

     
    • Posts: 0 Devin

      I think that might have come across douchey when it was meant to be funny. Apologies if so.

       
  • Posts: 0 psujoe

    OT: Watchig bowl games and checking on wrestling results I thought about the Phillies. Serious question:
    Option A: ($6 or 7 million under LT in 2013, $22 or 23 under 2014)
    Plus:
    Revere(.5 mil)
    Young($6 mil, 1 year)
    Lannan($2.5, 1 year)
    Adams($12 million, 2 years)

    Minus:
    Worley
    May(Prospect)
    Lindblum
    Bonilla

    Option B:($7 or 7.5 million over the LT in 2013, $15 or 15.5 million under in 2014).
    Plus:
    Bourne 4/$60
    Young 1/$6
    Uehata 1/$4.5

    Minus:
    Lindblum
    Bonilla

     
    • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

      Where do the Bourne figures come from? At one time he was looking for a four plus year contract at a higher than 15 million per annum rate.

       
      • Posts: 0 psujoe

        Swisher wanted $100 million also and he settled for 4/$56.

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        Some people on this board need to work hard at New Year’s Resolutions. I love the way people state….

        “At one time he was looking for a four plus year contract at a higher than 15 million per annum rate.”

        Only to be followed up by

        “Swisher wanted $100 million also and he settled for 4/$56.”

        And the there was some gem yesterday making reference to Amaro, and the players he’s interested in.Oh, pardon me. That was Rube’s brother in law, so MIGHT know.

        The New Year’s Resolution is to swear before all y’alls maker that thou shalt not state rumors as though they be facts.

        How the hell do fans know what Bourn or Swisher want. Don’t nobody understand the negotiating game to what is said in the paper serves a purpose that I’ll leave others to figure out.

        To be sure, some of those “reports” are truer than others. Some are the results of competition emminating from this nonsensical game of who can break what story first.

        Just like there are assumptions about just how interested the Phillies were in Cody Ross. All you know, all I know is they didn’t sign him. If and when Ruben discusses it, which he won’t, then it’s safe to state the level of interest as fact.

         
  • Avatar of "Big Ed" Delahanty

    Imbmost likely wrong, but I think the Phillies are going to go with the players they have to start in the outfield. Maybe they will make a mid-season or late trade, but I think Amaro wants to see what these young guys have. Granted they are not the outfield of Delahanty, Hamilton, or Turner, but could turn out to resemble Luzinski, Maddox, and McBride, and that outfield, along with Gross and Dernier was part of the ’80 world champions. Despite these: g= games
    Luzinski 106g .228 avg 19 hrs 56 RBIs .342 OBP
    Maddox 143g .259 avg 11hrs 73 RBIs. .278 OBP
    McBride 137g .309 avg 9hrs 87 RBIs. .342 OBP
    If Ruf does a Luzinski, I’ll take it, as well as Brown and Revere either matching or doing better than Maddox and McBride. I’m not a saber guy, but if they perform close to that for the money, and Nix and Mayberry chip in, we should be fine. Not like Delahanty, Hamilton, Turner fine though:
    g= games
    Delahanty: 114 g .407 avg 4hrs .478 OBP 131RBIs
    Hamilton: 129g .404 avg 4hrs .523 OBP
    87 RBIs
    Turner: 80g .416 avg 1hr .456 OBP 82 RBIs
    Go Phils!!!

     
  • Avatar of "Big Ed" Delahanty

    Sorry about any typos. Also, this is the second half of my post, since my iPhone did something with the info the first time around, such as the Thompson/ Turner pairing.

    Ed Delahanty 39-2b 18-3b 489-AB 60BB
    199-H 21-SB .585 SLG 16-SO
    Billy Hamilton 25-2b 15-3b 544-AB 126BB
    220-H 98-SB. .528 SLG 17-SO
    Tuck Turner 21-2b 9-3b. 339-AB 23BB
    141-H 11-SB .540 SLG 13-SO
    Sam Thompson 99g 29-2b 27-3b 437-AB
    .407 avg 40BB 178-H 13-HR 141-RBIs 24-SB .686 SLG 13-SO

    Greg Luzinski 19-2b 1-3b 368-AB 60BB 84-H
    3-SB .440 SLG 100-SO
    Garry Maddox 31-2b 3-3b 549-AB 18BB 142-H
    25-SB .386 SLG 52-SO
    Bake McBride 33-2b 10-3b 554-AB 26BB
    171-H 13-SB .453 SLG 58-SO
    Lonnie Smith 100g 14-2b 4-3b 298-AB .339 avg 26BB 101-H 3HR 20RBIs 33 -SB .443 SLG
    48-SO

    So if our current outfield can match or exceed that of the ’80 team we will be in decent shape. Obviously, the outfield of Delahanty, Hamilton, Thompson/Turner was ridiculous.
    Let’s hope Ruf is the real deal, Brown gets enough PA’s to show his stuff, and Revere uses his ability to get on base and steal to provide runs, and that Mayberry and Nix serve as specialists off the bench.

     
  • Posts: 0 Rob h

    I don’t see them signing Hairston to multi-year deal, the team is probably set. Either brown or ruf needs to hit 270 with 20hr 70rbi’s or this teams in trouble.

     
 
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