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Michael Young Approves Trade To Phillies

Posted by Ryan Dinger, Sat, December 08, 2012 01:54 PM | Comments: 105
Acquisitions, Analysis, News, Opinion, Posts

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/aghostcar118/12-08-12MichaelYoung.jpgMichael Young is coming to Philadelphia.

After two days weighing his options, the 36-year old lifetime Texas Ranger has decided to leave the only organization he has ever played for, waiving his no-trade option for a chance to play third base everyday with the Phillies.

In exchange for Young, the Phillies will send back 25-year old right-handed reliever, Josh Lindblom, and Lisalverto Bonilla, a 22-year old right-handed pitcher who split time between Single-A Clearwater and Double-A Reading last season.

Texas has also agreed to pay $10 million of Young’s $16 million 2013 salary in the deal. Young will also reportedly make $1.2 million in benefits in the trade, though who will be paying that amount is still unclear. The deal is still pending a physical.

Young, a career .301 hitter, is coming off his worst season ever in the big leagues. In 2012, he hit .277/.312/.370, while hitting a career-low eight home runs, and 67 RBI. His .682 OPS and -1.4 WAR were also the lowest marks of his career.

Playing third base will be an adjustment for Young, as he hasn’t played there full-time since Adrian Beltre came to Texas before the 2011 season. In 2010, Young played 155 games at third base for the Rangers.

The Spin: Unlike our own Ian Riccaboni, I’m actually OK with this deal for a couple of reasons:

1) The Phillies didn’t give up very much for Young. Lindblom was mostly unimpressive in his time with the Phils after coming over from the Dodgers, and Bonilla, while sporting great numbers in the minors and a Double-A all star game appearance, is still just an unproven prospect. The Phillies have enough pitching depth to absorb both of these losses. With Texas paying more than half his salary, the Phillies fill a hole while leaving themselves the financial flexibility needed to go out and sign a corner outfielder (I like Nick Swisher, but Josh Hamilton has been speculated as a possibility ad nauseam since word of a potential Young trade broke).

2) I love that the Phillies got a veteran guy with a track record of success who can presumably play third regularly for them without a long-term commitment. In what is an undeniably weak market for third base this offseason, I felt committing to any of the available options for more than a season would be a mistake. With only one year of Young, the Phillies now have an opportunity to evaluate what’s available at third base following the 2013 season, when there could be more attractive options available, either in trade or through free agency, or possibly in prospect Cody Asche. At worst, Young is a stopgap who will likely give the Phillies as much as they got from the position last year at a reasonable cost. At best, Young, finding comfort in the stability of knowing where he’ll be playing everyday, rediscovers his form from two years ago, when he posted an .854 OPS and a 3.7 WAR. His defense will surely leave something to be desired, but Amaro is rolling the dice on the possibility that he’ll look more like the Michael Young from 2003 to 2011 at the plate than the guy who was a shell of himself last year.

Update 2:14 pm: It appears it will be Texas paying the $1.2 million in benefits to Young. The Phillies have also agreed to give Young a full no-trade clause.

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About Ryan Dinger

Ryan Dinger has written 125 articles on Phillies Nation.

Ryan stated writing for Phillies Nation in 2012.

 
 
  • Posts: 426 Publius

    Avatar of Publius

    Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarf

     
  • Posts: 1190 Manny

    Avatar of Manny

    I’m fine with this deal. If he’s not as bad as 2012 (likely), it’ll pay off. And we’re giving up Lindblom and a low-level prospect… I can live with that.

     
    • Posts: 426 Publius

      Avatar of Publius

      What are you basing this “likely” on? 36 year old’s don’t rebound all that often.

       
      • Posts: 1190 Manny

        Avatar of Manny

        One bad year. ONE. I can’t draw strong conclusion from just one bad year, especially when his also recent 2011 was very, very solid.

         
      • Posts: 426 Publius

        Avatar of Publius

        Sometimes players decline gradually, other times quickly. There is nothing in Young’s peripherals which indicate that 2012 was simply a “fluke.” His HR/FB% declined (which is impressive to do in Texas of all places) and line drives are turning into ground balls. This won’t be pretty.

         
      • Posts: 1190 Manny

        Avatar of Manny

        Um… very low BABIP compared to his average. I think that’s one thing. Bill James is predicting a .294/.343/.416 line. That’s good enough.

         
      • Posts: 426 Publius

        Avatar of Publius

        When you hit less line drives and more ground balls, your BABIP declines. Unless Young re-learns how to square up on the ball and hit more liners, get ready for lots of ground balls to the shortstop/third baseman

         
      • Posts: 0 Jeff T

        But his LD% really wasn’t off from his career numbers his career AVG is 24% and he hit 23% last year. Very could be just an outlier.

         
    • Posts: 0 Justin

      I think they are taking a risk by signing him, but I’m sure he’ll do better than a Frandsen/Galvis platoon.

      If they can sign Swisher, we’ll be fine next year.
      What I’m worried about are three guys: Howard, Utley, and Doc.

       
  • Posts: 0 Bart Shart

    More financial room to sign a top relief pitcher and Nick Swisher. Gotta look for that silver lining. And Young may be more solid playing just one position next year.

     
    • Posts: 0 hk

      How is it more financial room? They’re paying him $6M to hopefully, but possibly not, provide what Frandsen could have provided. Plus he cost them a decent prospect in Bonilla.

       
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    Well, here we go. For better or worse. For all the reputation the Phils pitching has, To an
    extent, pitching is as good as its defense makes it. Michael’s offense oughta be acceptable.
    Certainly wish him the best, and I’m sure the clubhouse just got better. I hope he really enjoys The Bank. I’m sure he will enjoy the knowledgable atmosphere.

     
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    I like the move too for the reasons said. Young had a terrible 2012 but a good 2011. If we can get something in between then I am happy with it. Definitely prefer this to Frandsen.
    Ultimately, however, how good or bad this and the Revere deals were will be partially decided by what we do with the money we saved.

     
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    good solid vetran. compared to polly this a great upgrade.

    now go get the grandy man. oh baby ruben is eating the taco bell today

     
    • Posts: 426 Publius

      Avatar of Publius

      Polanco was actually more than a full win better than Young was last year. An upgrade this is not.

       
      • Posts: 2980 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        Polanco was also hurt for significant chunks of the year. Give me a frickin’ break.

         
      • Posts: 426 Publius

        Avatar of Publius

        Which makes the fact that he was better than Young all that more amazing.

         
      • Posts: 2980 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        Well, maybe in the advanced metric world that you live in he was better last year………. but I’ll take a HEALTHY Michael Young over a Placido Polanco that played in just 90 games any day.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        The difference between Polanco and Michael Young is that Placido Polanco actually knows what to do with a baseball mitt in his hand. Michael Young thinks it’s glass and might break if it touches a baseball.

         
      • Posts: 432 Ian Riccaboni

        Avatar of Ian Riccaboni

        It’s rather amazing that Young’s defense was so bad in such limited actual on field playing time that it swung his pretty decent offensive numbers into a negative net value for his team.

         
      • Posts: 426 Publius

        Avatar of Publius

        Michael Young in the field: http://i.minus.com/ibrHWNeEy12G7Y.gif

         
      • Posts: 0 brooks

        Right, when Poly played

         
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    Remind me never to write a book called “The Lost Art of Demagoguery” because it is so extensively alive in sabermetric corners of the world as evidenced in anticipation and immediate reaction to the Phils acquisition of Michael Young. The quickness and the intensity with which the bullets are flying toward the guy remind of when King Kong finally went down to a city full of New York shooters. So very many better options at third base. Kevin Frandsen, and offensive bright spot if you don’t like power does a nice job for one year off an alliance with the BAPIP gods, but is hardly a major defensive improvement over Young. Young, for 1 stinking year, and maybe less if the Phils still have the right to trade him is a reasonably priced less than high risk to net contribute positively to a Phillie club faced with a game wide dilemma these days, who’s on 3rd. People are quick to point to his numbers where they decline, but what is so metrically measured about how a change of scenery after 4,000 years in the Texas heat might enable a reprise. That’s right. Sabermetrics covers all body parts except heart and head. The guy can play to SOME extent, and he was acquired within the discipline of value. To me, any negativity about the guy before he even has a chance to string together some regular time at third for the first time in a while, or get comfortable at the plate in his new environs is somewhere between ignorant and negative. It’s a pretty good deal with questions. It’s not the so sick of hearing it end of the world transaction some people would have you believe. My 2 cents.

     
    • Posts: 0 hk

      Are you saying that people, be they fans or bloggers (sabremetrically inclined or otherwise) should not respond negatively when they don’t like a deal?

       
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        Not at all, hk. But enough is enough. Young was harped on all of lastear, all of last week. Now that the deal is donewhat’s the point of criticizing the guy? By no means does it not mean that someone shouldn’t, it surely means that in the eyes of one person, it’s ridiculous, ngative, ignorant, take your pick of some negative reaction. Frankly, it’s not a whole lot different than someone talking about his offensive possibilities like that’s gonna be the be all and end all. It’s kinda narrow minded. I guess I’d prefer reading about his future time here, and the reasons it might have some rewards since they are a little harder to find. I think they exsist, as opposed to the sabermetric factors which seem pretty clearly show a player in trouble.

         
      • Posts: 0 hk

        But Ken, here’s the thing, it’s not so much that it’s dislike of Michael Young because I would think that there’s probably better than a 50/50 chance that Michael Young would produce more than Kevin Frandsen in 500 PA’s as a team’s primary 3B next year as it is dislike of the deal. RAJ seems to have misread the market for a player for the second time this off-season (Schierholtz being the first). He had to know that Jon Daniels has been trying to unload Young for more than a year, so between the limited market of teams that would be seemingly trade for Young and the fact that Young had the 10/5 right to refuse any deal, paying $6M of Young’s salary and giving up a guy who the prospect websites rank anywhere from 12th to 15th best in the system is an overpay. If they had gotten Michael Young for $3M and Lindblom, I would have no problem with it. It’s the extra $3M and the young arm with which I have a problem.

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        I don’t know what to tell you about Bonilla. It really comes down to the usual a prospect is a prospect. He’s projected as a mid rotation or late inning guy. Great numbers, for sure, but people in the organization get paid to evaluate, and what they thought of him, I can’t question.
        Regarding the 6 mil, what can I tell ya? We may have seen a deal between 2 of the more shrewd GMs in the game. A little give and take seems reasonable. I never really understood how Amaro got Houston to pay Oswalt’s salary. Plus, I don’t get the impression that there’s much difference between Frandsen and Young in your view, seem to give a slight edge to Young. I haven’t gotten the impression all off season the Phils are as high on him as some of the people that comment here.

        On Nate, how do we know he didn’t try to trade him? Nate, not costing a body is more appealing for just cash. Maybe that’s why they were lined up to sign him. To me, Nate is at best okay, nothing special. Pretty much an average Joe. And with that in mind, but combined with possible oversight of the appeal of the average Joes being valuble roster fillers, I can only speak for myself, but the market reaction was quite surprising. So I can’t sit here in arrears and say Ruben missed the boat since there was a lot of demand for him. Now if even just one guy, like a Gillick, is screaming in Ruben’s ear that there will be a market for him, so you should get SOMETHING, then maybe we have a problem. I find it difficult to say he misread the value of Nate in red flag critical mode.

         
    • Posts: 0 Ryne Duren

      i think you’re dead on ken. personally i like fransden but i’ll take the proven vet. his experience will only pay dividends. and we still have fransden, so this move makes the team more versatile and ads a little balance to the line up. man if we can land a RH power bat that would be great! i’d settle for hamilton though. lol sign a FA pitcher (not lannan) please. jackson would be good. i’d prefer sanchez though. if they can’t get an 8th in. guy i’m ok with aumont. thoughts ken?

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        This is what I don’t get.

        You want all these other additions to the team, yet don’t recognize that you’ve just taken $6 million dollars away from the pot that is going to pay for those upgrades. The upgrade from Frandsen to Young will be, at best, marginal. The upgrade from someone like Lannan to Jackson, or from a guy like Cody Ross to Hamilton is huge, and more than makes up for any loss of performance (if there is any) from “downgrading” to Frandsen from Mike Young.

        Not to mention the fact that Bonilla is a pretty awesome prospect in his own right. This is a bad acquisition, and the trade was even worse, considering Texas had NO leverage. They badly wanted to get rid of Mike Young so they’d have places to play their young, cheap, talented players because they know Ron Washington will continue to play Young over those guys, AND they wanted to clear salary so they can finalize their pursuit of Greinke/Hamilton. Knowing all that, Ruben had all the leverage here and he still ends up giving up young, cost controlled pieces with some value and taking on 40% of Young’s remaining contract.

        Bad acquisition, and separately a bad trade.

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        I’ll say this about Aumont. If, by chance they go with him as the setup guy, which is a huge, huge if, they gotta really go with him. Not make him feel like he’s on probation every night. The guy has real potential, but he’s had so many ups and downs, and been jerked around a lot, some of which was due to his own performances, but still didn’t help his cause. I think they’d still prefer a guy further along in consistent control.

        Starter? Geez, I dunno. Shawn Marcum is probably a decent name. I don’t know about Edwin. He’s giot to be sick of shirt termitis. Is he worth long term? Doesn’t fire me up.

        Big decisions, and tough ones.

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        Probably should mention Ryan Dempster’s name, too, as a potential starter. Looks like he wants 3 years. I don’t think he was on Corey’s list the other day. Might have been the money, though having turned down the BoSox for 2 years at 13 per, you kinda get the idea where the money’d be. Pretty decent pitcher, might be buying high on him though. But they can’t be doing a warm body. Have to get some degree of quality.

         
    • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

      Well said Mr. Balnd.

       
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr

    Wow wasnt they high on Bonilla?

     
  • Posts: 0 Jeff

    LISTEN PUBBY BABY. It really does not matter this team sux anyway. ryan i cant hit low balls howard. is terrible with age. utley is damaged goods. doc is breaking down. rollins is a baby rapper. no outfielders. they are terrible. polly was worse then your mama. who care. they are flthy rich scums who cheat on there wives. relax dude. its a stupid game. philly knows this. look at the eagles. lol loll lol

     
    • Posts: 0 Drisslin' Shitz Jeff

      Why do you bother,Jeff? If it’s just a game, why do you insist on torturing the rest of us w/ your pathetic input?

       
  • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

    This team is looking to be no better (and likely worse) than last season. I’ll still go down to CBP and have a good time, but that proverbial “window of opportunity” has closed.

     
    • Posts: 2980 Chuck A.

      Avatar of Chuck A.

      Like I said earlier in the week….90 wins and a playoff spot. Just with Utley and Howard in the lineup from Day 1 and for 140 or so games each that’s gotta be at least 5 more wins right there. And I think I’m being conservative.

       
  • Posts: 0 George

    This move is proving to be far more controversial than it should be. No one knows what Bonilla will turn into and no one knows if Young will be decent or terrible. $6million isn’t chump change, but it’s also not a budget breaker, and it’s only for one year.

    I’m not going to get worked up about it one way or the other until spring training or later.

     
  • Posts: 0 Dave

    Are many of you really saying that having Michael Young is not much better than Kevin Frandsen? The same Kevin Frandsen that has never played a full season in the major leagues? The same Kevin Frandsen that had a CAREER batting average of .242 when he came to the Phillies last year? The same Kevin Frandsen who has a whopping 9 career home runs in almost 800 at bats? I mean, I thought Kevin did a nice job filling in for us last year too, but you guys act like we’re benching Mike Schmidt and replacing him with Rick Schu!! The truth is, we don’t know what we’d get by playing Frandsen there all year. What we now know is we just got a career .300 hitter to play there. And you’re all complaining. Wow.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      I’d be really happy if they had picked up a 28 year old career .300 hitter (although I would look to see what his OBP is because that’s more important but whatever).

      Unfortunately they picked up a 36 year old career .300 hitter who is coming off the worst season of his career, and are asking him to play a position he’s been awful at.

      Last season Michael Young was Ty Wigginton. They were the same player. Except Wigginton didn’t cost two warm bodies and $6,000,000.

       
      • Posts: 2980 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        Yeah, sure, I’d love an entire lineup of 28 year old .300 hitters. But it doesn’t work that way and you know it. Besides…which 28 year old .300 hitter that plays 3B did you have in mind???

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        I’d be fine with the 30 year old guy who hit .338/.383/.451 last year and wouldn’t have cost the Phils a dime, since he’s already under contract for less than a million dollars.

         
    • Posts: 0 Rabbi

      Agreed, Dave. Frandsen is a nice back-up, period. Most Phillies fans probably never heard of him before last year… he couldn’t stick with the light hitting Giants! Michael Young brings a lot to this team… by all accounts, he is a great team mate and a proven winner. People who are ripping this deal are showing themselves to be less than casual fans…

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Yeah, a great teammate who bitched and asked for trades every time his ABs were taken away, and then who wanted an extra $1.2 million dollar bribe, on top of the $75,ooo,ooo in career earnings he’s already banked and the $16,ooo,ooo he’s due this season.

        Totally a great clubhouse guy.

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        When EricL writes this…

        “Yeah, a great teammate who bitched and asked for trades every time his ABs were taken away, and then who wanted an extra $1.2 million dollar bribe, on top of the $75,ooo,ooo in career earnings he’s already banked and the $16,ooo,ooo he’s due this season.

        Totally a great clubhouse guy”

        He raises valid points. And while it’d be a little naive b;indly think leopards change their stripes, maybe it’s different thanbeing with a new club this late in a career with a last chance to prove something. That sort of challenge, or motivation should help. I just have a vision of a motivated veteran fitting in pretty well with a bunch of other vets who are looking at some lastr hurrahs.

         
      • Posts: 0 George

        From what I read, that extra $1.2 million was to cover the tax difference between Texas and Pennsylvania (Texas has no prsonal income tax) and Young will see none of it. Some players want a lot more to waive their rights, like multi-million dollar extensions, options being picked up, or playing time guarantees.

         
  • Posts: 2 Tinman5

    Avatar of Tinman5

    This is a low risk deal. Forget the money. The Phillies will go over the Cap if they can get the right players to get wins. They were not able to raise ticket prices this year and there is a Mega- Television deal coming. Young will be the DH for the 10 AL Road games and play second to rest Utley. He had 79 runs scored and 67 RBIs in a down year. If there is anything left in the tank, it works. Couple this with a low cost centerfielder who can cover for weak corner outfielders and the Phillies have room to add the number 4 starter, power hitter and most of all the 8th inning reliever they need most. After all, the Bullpen lost 23 leads last year. Let’s see who is on the field on April 1st.

     
    • Posts: 0 brooks

      I agree Tindude. A down year hitting .277 with 67 RBI and 79 runs scored? Better than most of the Phils starters last year.

      Regardless, hitter friendly confines of CBP, great history (6 times he had over 200 hits), still some power… and getting rid of Linda-boom in the deal? Good enough.

       
      • Posts: 426 Publius

        Avatar of Publius

        Texas is a more hitter friendly park than Philadelphia. And his decline in line drive percentage and flyballs turning into homers speaks to the fact that he really doesn’t have a lot of power left in the tank.

         
      • Posts: 0 hk

        If by, still has some power, you mean that he has hit 19 HR’s in his last 1,340 plate appearances playing half his games in a home park that has been much more favorable to RHB’s than CBP is, you are right. If by, still has some power, you mean that he had a (barely) higher slugging percentage than Freddy Galvis, you are right. If by, still has some power, you mean that he had the same ISO as Brewers P Yovani Gallardo, you are right.

         
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr

    I agree about Frandsden he did great for us. However we dont know if its fluke or not. If there was a plan B then i would take the gamble on Frandsden. He could be what he was last year or he could revert to a .250 hitter.

     
  • Posts: 523 Bruce

    Avatar of Bruce

    Well…as they say…for better or worse. Mr. Young has a FULL no trade clause given by the Phillies and will receive 40% of his $16 million salary from his new team. He will be 37 years old next year and will attempt to adjust to NL pitching with a bat that is reportedly losing speed . Phillies told him he must play 3rd base with a glove after being a DH for most of last season.

    Granted he did play that position (3rd) for 25 games last season as Rangers’ manager held his breath everytime a grounder came toward Young’s way (chuckles). Young is not Placido Polanco with the golden glove at 3rd. Instead, Young was regarded as a utility infielder. So I”m not so sure he will be an “upgrade” there. And I fear our pitchers like Cliff Lee will be giving the cold unapprovingly look from the mound toward Young when he cost the team a run with an fielding error. That where it may hurt the team as their primary strength is pitching and needs a stellar defense on the field. As they say, pitcher’s best friend is the doubleplay ball.

    So I’m in the writer Ian Riccaboni’s corner when he wrote this would be a “bad deal”. Remember, the Phillies are also giving up two arms including a prospect with good stats in the further depleted farm system.

     
  • Posts: 959 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    I am not a minor league expert but Bonilla was not projected as much in the places I have searched and Lindbloom was nothing to write home about. So for six million I think it is worth the risk. I like Frendsen and think he would have been ok and better defensivlly. But this deal still leaves some salary flexability. I do like his bat and think he may provide some protection in the middle of the line up, and national league pitching is not as good as the American league if history has shown us much of anything. There have been some big bats that could not switch to the AL. And I think someone posted earlier, Chase is going to be sitting more this year then in the past, and it gives you a real bat to back him up, and allow Frandsen to stay fresh and get some at bats. Since it cost almost nothing, even though I was not on board with this move earlier, but with what they gave up and what they have to pay him I am begining to like it.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bart Shart

    I took a little nap and had a dream that the Michael Young signing was simply a preamble to the Phils signing Mike Adams and Josh Hamilton (both ex-Rangers0) Both Adams and Young will have a stabilizing affect on Hamilton, who will have a monster year in Philly. Just a dream.

     
  • Posts: 0 detriot ronny

    I’m with Ken on this. It was a cheaper move than getting Youkilis, which is what everyone was predicting. It gives us financial flexibility that we wouldn’t have without making this move, and, all of you complaining about Young now would have been complaining about something else later. We all knew Ruben was going to get a veteran 3B, so just go with it. There is definitely some wiggle room to add a middle of the order bat and a set-up man now. I’m glad we didn’t go out and overpay for Youkilis, and we sure as heck didn’t overpay for Young. Until Lindbloom gets his control under control, I wouldn’t want him up in the majors. We needed a right handed batter too, so… He might not be the same guy he was in 2005 or 2011, but the man has 2230 career hits. He’s a professional hitter, and it’d be nice to see warmer reactions.

     
  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    The good news is that the Phil’s will actually have 2 quality reserves in the infield. Frandsen plays 3b, 2b and 1b. Galvis plays a stellar SS and 2b. Not a lot of power, but that’s what the $40 million on Utley and Hiward is for. Adams, Swisher and a starter.

     
  • Posts: 0 detriot ronny

    Young dealt with a lot of BS in Texas. Maybe that’s somethin’ ya’ll didn’t know.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks

    I write this a few times each year but I guess it needs to be said.

    1. Perfect deals don’t exist. In order to measure a deal you need to consider the market and the other side’s interest. I have not yet heard from the critics who else they want at third base. (If they wanted to save money and go with Fransdien, then they need to say what they would do with the money and how they would outbid other parties)

    2. Every negotiation has its own dynamics. I suppose the Rangers might have not demanded other players if the Phillies had paid a higher percentage of the money. Perhaps Young’s last minute demand for the $1.2 million pushed the Rangers to ask for more which would be a reasonable position. Perhap Amaro has calculated what he needs for another position so limited his dollars.

    3. Each transaction needs to be considered in light of the total strategy for the year. If Amaro had already determined 3rd base and CF as his priorities he is going to skew the money that way. Perhaps he decided he would not win in a battle for Hamilton or Swisher or someone else.

    4. Whatever your strategy or plan you have to adjust to the rapidly changing dynamics. Amaro obviously was holding the line for quite a while on CF and getting outbid. He did not want to leave with nothing so he pushed the Young deal.

    Personally I like Young for $6 million for one year. I do not like having to give up LIndbloom but I was not at the table and don’t have all the info.

    Wish I was as certain as many of the above seem to be on what is and what is not a good deal.

     
    • Posts: 5085 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Nice Job B i B,
      I wish I could be as certain too.

       
    • Posts: 0 hk

      Nice post. In response to your point #1, of course we don’t know right now which two players that $6M is the difference between. If they sign someone like Joe Saunders to be the 4th starter instead of someone like Anibal Sanchez and the difference between Saunders’s AAV and Sanchez’s AAV is ~$6M, I will submit that the $6M could have been better used on a better 4th starter. I just don’t feel that the $6M and one of the top 15 prospects in the system justifies taking the chance that Michael Young will have a better year than Kevin Frandsen would have if given the opportunity.

       
  • Posts: 5085 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    This is from February 2011- I don’t know if it has any meaning whatsoever, but I remembered reading it when I first heard last week that the Phils were trying to trade for Michael Young.

    “While on hand to send the Rangers equipment truck on its way to spring training Monday, AL Most Valuable Player Josh Hamilton said the potential trade of Michael Young is a “concern” for the players.
    “It’s definitely a concern,” said Hamilton, who worked out with Young Monday morning. “When you think about his leadership, it’s hard to think about him not being part of this team. He’s always been a guy I could go to, who I could I learn from.”

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/texas-rangers/20110207-josh-hamilton-trading-michael-young-doesn_t-make-sense-but-it_s-part-of-the-business_.ece

     
    • Posts: 426 Publius

      Avatar of Publius

      Interesting, cuz that same February Michael Young demanded that he be traded from the Rangers like a petulant primadonna.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        I think you have your timing a little off. And frankly, the way you present it actually might speak some to Young’s character.

        It was around ’09 when the Rangers moved Young off short without communicating with him about it that he aggressively demanded a trade. I suspect you might be quick to criticize him for that, and might even have some degree of point, but I respect a guy earning communication with long term service. He went about his business with a chip on his shoulder, but played through it, and I think that’s where the respect he seems to have from his teammates comes from. The time you are talking about, 2011 is when they got Beltre and dropped him into a utility role. He asked for a trade when they got Beltre, but I don’t believe he was as aggressive, or angry about it. The guy stands up for himself. There might be some selfishness in that, but that’s the same selfishness that points to success in many things. Ego. Drive. Just like what is so wrong with negotiating a no trade with the Phils which took time.. What’s so wrong with not wanting to move twice in a calendar year.

         
      • Posts: 0 George

        I can think of a number of players who’ve demanded trades, some of them Phils. You can’t blame the player unless you know ALL the circumstances involved. Sometimes management can be a bunch of dirtbags. One case I read of involved an owner who tried to bed down with his best pitcher’s wife.

         
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        I think George just suggested Charles O. Finley tried to take to the sheets with Mrs. Catfish.
        I dunno, that seems like a longshot. I love excuses to mention Catfish Hunter. He was Greg Maddux before there was a Greg Maddux. Might never be again, either.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Yeah, it’s fine if guys demand trades, that’s their right. If they don’t like how they’re being used, or don’t like the conditions or contract status or whatever, they’re free to voice those concerns. Let’s just not refer to them as these completely magnanimous “team players” when its clear that they’re looking out for themselves over what their superiors feel would be in the best interests of the team.

         
      • Posts: 0 brooks

        If one of the Phils, especially anybody with nearly the credentials that Young has accumulated with Texas over the years just up and demanded to be traded, what would this town’s let alone this post’s reaction be?

        Young’s history with the Rangers will probably get him into the Texas HOF, just sayin’.

         
    • Posts: 0 George

      EricL:

      Please point out in my comment where I referred to players as “completely magnanimous?”

      You seem to be unable to grasp the concept that there are two sides to a story.

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        I don’t know what you’re talking about.

        People have claimed that Young is a great “team player” and clubhouse presence. That implies that he puts the team first, ahead of personal concerns.

        All I’m saying is that great team players who put the team ahead of themselves don’t bitch when their playing time is threatened to be cut.

        You’re right, we don’t know both sides of the story – we can infer from what information we get – but we can’t know with 100% certainty. If you’re going to take that tack, however, you’ll also have to admit that we don’t know if he’s a good clubhouse guy or not, because we don’t have all sides to those stories either.

         
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    In just 8 more messages, Mike Young will have engaged in more controversy than he did in all those years with the Rangers. As Cliff said, Phillie fans don’t need an organist to tell them when to cheer. Oooooeeeee.

     
  • Posts: 0 LakotaKeya

    This will pan out to b a great move. If he was on the team last season his .277 would’ve been second behind Pierre (not even enough AB to qualify) and also second behind Rollins in RBI (67) by 1. Yea defense is scary no doubt, but I good bridge to the Asche years to come. RAJ get us some RH power and a decent 8th inning guy and we’re in the playoff hunt.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      His offensive line last year was basically identical to that of Ty Wigginton, and is defense at third is about on par with him as well.

      Would you refer to Ty Wigginton’s pickup in 2011 as “a great move?”

       
      • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

        I believe that Wiggington’s line would have sagged even more had he had the identical number of plate appearances as Young.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        That wasn’t the question.

        And I’m not sure that makes me feel any better about the Young deal. Your point seems to be that Mike Young’s bad line would have been better than Ty Wigginton’s bad line if only Ty Wigginton’s line was worse.

        Okay?

         
      • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

        The point is that the sample ABs for Wiggington were smaller than those of Young’s and that based on the historical data for each player the assumption that Wiggington would perform at Young’s level seems somewhat faulty. As for Young’s 2012-2013, season please refer to Dave Cameron’s article in similar aged players and bounce back seasons.http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/michael-young-a-good-bet-for-philadelphia/

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Ty Wigginton performed at basically the level he’s played at since 2009.

        In 2009 TW had an OPS+ of 86, and a wRC+ of 84
        2010: OPS+ of 98, wRC+ of 93
        2011: OPS+ of 86, wRC+ of 87

        And last year, OPS+ of 85, wRC+ of 87

        Wigginton’s numbers last year were right in line with what might reasonably be expected of him. Not sure why you think that would change if he played more or less. He’s been really quite consistent in his sub-par play.

        Yes, historically Young and Wigginton are not equal offensive players, but you’ve got the causation backward. The reason Wigginton and he posted nearly identical lines wasn’t because Wigginton played above his head in a short sample size, it’s because Young played much worse than anyone expected over the course of a whole year.

        And I’ve read that article. I don’t buy it. Yes, Young will probably rebound and post a year that isn’t as bad as he did in 2012. That doesn’t mean he’ll be good. Per Bill Baer of Crashburn Alley, here is a list of players that have had seasons as bad as Mike Young had at his age or older, and a listing of how they performed the following season: http://pastebin.com/2CcLuSXs

        About half retired, and the ones who didn’t retire had a combined average of 0.3 rWAR the next season. That’s bad. Only one of the 8 players who had a season as bad as MY’s 2012 and returned to play the next season had were able to accrue more than1 rWAR, and that was Carlton Fisk. That’s 1 out of 16 total players, and 1 out of 8 who had a season that wasn’t bad by any objective standard. Those are not good odds.

         
  • Posts: 0 Phil

    I’m a SABR nerd and I love this move. $6 million isn’t that much money in the grand scheme of things for a stop gap to Franco or Asche. Young, for his career, has been a very good hitter. He had a down year last year, but before that year, he showed no signs of regression. He’s really bad defensively, but he will be taken out for Galvis in late innings. EricL, especially, should stop being a d*ck to everyone on the site who doesn’t know a thing about SABR stats because they actually are showing enthusiasm over a low risk high reward move which you should be too. Get the sand out of your V and see if Michael Young can rebound from his lackluster 2012 season. If he doesn’t, it was a shrewd move by Amaro to fill a hole we’ve had for a decade since Rolen was traded away that can potentially hurt us for 1 year only. Remember, we made the playoffs with Wes Helms, Greg Dobbs, and Abraham Nunez playing 3B in 2007. Michael Young is a gigantic upgrade to that heaping pile of trash. And for those of you SABR nerds calling for Frandsen, that guy had a ridiculous and unsustainable BAbip. Yeah, have fun with him at 3B.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      You wrote a lot of words there. Good for you.

      Here’s what you said:

      The 2007 Phillies succeeded despite an awful third baseman.
      The 2013 Phillies needed an upgrade at third base because Kevin Frandsen might be awful.

      Good job, good effort.

       
      • Posts: 0 Phil

        And you’re condescending to everybody on this site for no reason. Wow, you can read fangraphs. Good for you. Now it gives you the right to think you’re better than everyone else.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        I’m don’t condescend to everyone on the site. In fact, my response to your post was the only thing I didn’t say in this topic that was 100% sincere. You’re ascribing to my posts with a tone that doesn’t exist. Do this: read all of my posts as if they were being said by an old lady. You’ll see how they’re all relatively innocuous if you don’t already have a preconceived notion of what I’m saying.

        When I say Michael Young fields like his glove is made of glass, I’m being honest. He really is terrible defensively.

        When I say he hit like Wigginton last year, he did. Their OBPs are within .002 points of each other. Their SLG were .005 apart.

        When I say that this is a waste of trading chips and money, I mean it.

        When I say he’s a selfish player whose “good guy” image is not supported by his actions over the last 4 years, I’m not being a dick, I’m pointing out facts of actual things that really happened.

        And when I say that the improvement from Frandsen to Young (note, I concede there is a slight improvement) is not worth $6,000,000 when this team has other holes it desperately needs to fill, I sincerely mean that.

        I haven’t called anyone any names, nor have I made any personal attacks against any posters (until I responded to yours in kind). I disagree, vehemently, with the people who think this is a good move, and that’s all.

        The point I’ve been making is, this is a dumb move that doesn’t substantially improve the club and at the same time hampers their ability to fill other holes that are glaring by taking away trading chips and payroll flexibility. If you don’t like me making that point, you’re free to not read my posts.

         
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Jeez, 2 proofing errors in the first three sentences of my post. Awesome.

         
  • Posts: 0 A templet to contemplate

    While Bart was aslumber, Amaro awoke and started to channel Charlie Finley. Did he just acquire the present day Billy North. Does he already have the Catfish, Vida, and Rollie on staff. Did Sal Bando just check in to make an appearance or two at third when he in not the right-handed platoon at first ( if Cholly had half a brain). Can Joe Rudi and Reggie Jackson be located to fill the bill? The field of dreams, indeed.

     
  • Posts: 0 Phil

    I should also add that Young only has to amass roughly a 1.5 WAR next year to make this deal worth it to cover the $6 million. That’s not unattainable at all.

     
    • Posts: 0 hk

      Phil,

      I am not trying to be condescending, but I take issue with both your calculation of how much WAR Young will have to produce to justify the deal and with how attainable 1.5 WAR seems to be from my perspective.

      How did you come up with 1.5 WAR justifying the $6M? I’ve seen $/WAR figures estimated for free agent signings, but not for trades. How did you value Bonilla in your equation? Also, since the Phils already had Frandsen on the roster, for Young to be worth the $6M, wouldn’t he have to amass roughly 1.5 WAR more than you would expect Frandsen to produce in the same playing time? Or, are you saying that you would project Frandsen to be a replacement level player if given the same playing time?

      On the issue of Young’s projected WAR for 2013:

      1. He’s 36 years old and coming off a -1.4 WAR season

      2. His WAR last year benefited significantly from the 651 plate appearances afforded to him by Ron Washington. If we assume that the wear-and-tear from playing the field will reduce his playing time, his WAR will automatically take a hit. If he gets 500 PA’s this year instead of 651, it will cost him more than 0.5 WAR.

      3. His defense has been so bad that, unless his fielding improves, the defensive runs that he gives up will more than offset the positional adjustment he gets from playing 3B.

      4. Last year was the 4th year in a row that his power, as measured by his ISO, declined. It has dropped from .196 in ’09, to .160 in ’10 to .136 in ’11 to .090 last year. This is a disturbing trend in an aging player.

      5. As has been pointed out, the Ballpark in Arlington is a better hitter’s park than CBP and this is especially so for RHB’s. According to the site http://www.statcorner.com, which has become the go-to site for park factors, CBP is a minimally below average hitter’s park for RHB’s whereas his old home park is one of the best for them.

      Again, I’m not trying to be a dick or condescending, I’m just trying to see the rationale behind your comment.

       
  • Posts: 0 Phil

    Speaking of trades and the need for starting pitching, can we go grab one of the Dodgers plethora of arms they have over there?

     
  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    Anyone comparing Young’s down year to Wigs year has an agenda or is, well, grasping at straws. It’s a low risk move and didn’t cost much. Bonilla could be good, but there’s a ton of young talent in front of him. Can’t hold prospects forever.

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Or, they’re making a factual comparison based on what both players actually did:

      Wigginton: .235/.314/.375, wOBA .302, OPS+ 85, wRC+ 87
      Young: .277/.312/.370, wOBA .297, OPS+ 78, wRC+ 78

      Young had more hits, but Wigginton walked more so they got on base at basically the same rate. Young put up those numbers in an extreme hitters park, Wigginton put up his–with more power–in a park that neither inflates or suppresses home runs.

      They both are terrible in the field, and they both had bad seasons last year when compared to their career averages. Young is a year older than Wigginton.

      The only reason people don’t like that comparison is because they like Mike Young and don’t want to contemplate the possibility that he’s lost bat speed and is done, so they hope he’ll be more like the guy they remember from a few years ago, despite moving out of an extreme hitters park.

      Outside of Arlington, his wRC+ over the last few years has been:
      ’12: 89
      ’11: 106
      ’10: 75

      100 would be hitting at a league-average pace, so in ’11 he was 6% better than the average player, in 2010 he was 25% worse than the average player, and in ’12 he was 11% worse than the average player. And that’s just on offense.

      As for the trade, well, you can hold prospects forever if they turn into excellent players and they play for your major league team. But aside from that, I agree that prospects are a chip that you can use for acquiring players. The problem is when you waste them by trading for guys who don’t improve your club much, or who you undervalue and could have been used to pick up better players or to fill holes elsewhere. I’m not saying that they should have never traded Lisalverto Bonilla, I’m saying they shouldn’t have traded Bonilla for a guy with as little value as Mike Young.

       
  • Posts: 0 arc

    Andy Reid, and Ruben Amaro. Why do we get stuck with the guys who have something to proove? why must these guys always try to prove how smart they are? Amaro making all of these little moves trying to be the Giants and cardinals since him trying to go the Yankee route blew up in his face. The Phillies used to have character, now this franchise is just trying to do what they think made another team good. Pick up Granderson/Hamilton and lets get on with the season. Are you big market of small market Amaro, make up your mind

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      Ah, the arcmeister is back. Last I recall, ARC, who debuted on this site with lessons Ruben should have learned from when he painted his house in Wynnewood in the 1940s, decade of Their Lord, was offering baseball views that some of the readership decided to take seriously, and engage in intelligent conversation. Nice challenge, if that’s your thang.

      In that spirit, particularly on a Sunday, Day of Their Sabbath, I would offer this reply to a.R.c.’s
      free of charge GM review.

      Our Father, which art in heaven,
      Hallowed be thy Name.
      Thy Kingdom come.
      Thy will be done in earth,
      As it is in heaven.
      Give us this day our daily bread.
      And forgive us our trespasses,
      As we forgive them that trespass against us.
      And lead us not into temptation,
      But deliver us from evil.
      For thine is the kingdom,

      The power, and the glory,

      For ever and ever.

      Amen.

       
  • Posts: 0 Ryne Duren

    therwe’s a lot of good stuff here fellas! i’m enjoying the shit out of all you guys commenting. some explain to me this. now i basically know what they’re saying when someone says it’s a hitter friendly park! a commenter earlier made the comment that texas stadium was more of a hitter friendly park than CBP! oh please, if a guy is a good hiotter he’ll hit any frickin where! i mean i can see a difference in maybe power output cause of conditions (thin air, wind etc.) but come on . since when does a park become friendly to hitters. if a guy gets a hit , or gets 250 of them, does he thank his mom? or the lord? or the stinkin park!

     
    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      This doesn’t seem like a sincere question, since you’ve already dismissed the answer, but I guess I’ll try to give you a little bit of an explanation.

      Some ballparks have conditions that allow the ball to fly further – for example, there’s very thin air in Denver, so until they started keeping their baseballs in a humidor Coors Field was a launching pad. In 2002, for example Coors gave up 60% more HR than the average park gave up. They calculate this by comparing the total HR hit in Coors field by both home and road teams to thee total number of HR hit outside of Coors field by the Rockies and their opponents. This means that the number is adjusted for the strength or weakness of any particular pitching staff, and you get a pretty good estimation of how the park fares in comparison to others. (One year’s worth of data is usually too small a sample, so depending on who’s measuring they often use a few years worth of data, and the calculation is a bit more complex than that, but that’s the general gist of it)

      Now, sometimes it’s atmospheric conditions, but other times it’s the dimensions of the stadium that cause these things. For example, a stadium with very deep OF walls and normal atmospheric conditions will tend to depress HR. So a guy who hits a lot of HR for a team that plays in such a stadium is actually doing more than a guy who hits the same number of HR in a “hitters stadium.” On the other end of the spectrum, you have Coors Field again, because even though they now keep their balls in a humidor to suppress HR to something a little closer a normal rate, they still have a very spacious OF (built because they hoped to keep more balls in the park in the thin air) – and this means that there’s a lot more ground for their outfielders to cover, which in turn means that more balls that would be outs or singles in a smaller ballpark turn into hits or extra base hits, respectively. That’s why some places are hitters parks and others are pitcher friendly.

      Anyway, analysts take all this information and are able to calculate how hitter friendly or hitter unfriendly each park is by measuring what actually happens in those parks.

      In 2012 Citizens bank park gave up 3.2% fewer runs than a completely neutral ballpark. Arlington allowed 18.3% more runs than a neutral ballpark.

      In 2011 CBP allowed 0.3% fewer runs than a neutral ballpark, Arlington allowed 40.9% more runs than a completely neutral ballpark.

      In 2010 CBP allowed 0.9% fewer runs than a neutral ballpark, Arlington 9.1% more runs than neutral.

      So, when ballparks are “hitter friendly” they allow more hits, more HR, and more runs scored because of whatever combination of factors leads up to that, and so players who play in such an environment benefit from those factors.

       
      • Posts: 0 hk

        To take this further and make the conversation particular to the topic of Michael Young, http://www.statcorner.com breaks down park factors for RH and LH batters and shows that Texas’s home park is very friendly to RHB’s while CBP is minimally below neutral.

         
  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Does this deal involve moving Howard, Utley or Rollins?

    Maybe all 3?

    The going old plan continues.

    I am worried about Lee and Doc.
    They too are “seasoned” and have more to do with the team than anyone.

    In a way though if you are going to go all in old. I can support that.
    Hes doing it.

    Ken Bland talk about the 1983 Phillies.
    Miracles can happen.

    The future though is not so bright.
    All in 2013 again.

    I am buying.

     
    • Posts: 0 brooks

      I left my Sunday package there for you AFW – center field seats, roasting in the August sun

       
  • Posts: 523 Bruce

    Avatar of Bruce

    I’m thinking this; How much of an “upgrade” is Young at 3rd base (he played only 25 games there last season as he was primarily a DH)?

    Is he a better gloveman than Polanco? Seriously? Young does not even come close and can only admire Polanco’s gold glove award from afar (smile). That’s why i think the Phillies pitchers have something to worry about next season.

    Young, who will be 37 years old next year and his best years as a hitter are behind him, may hit no better than Polanco in his last season with the Phillies. Young’s .277 BA for 2012 is a red flag waving high on pole for everyone to see.

    To deny Frandsen, 6 years younger than Young, a opportunity to show that his improved hitting is no fluke and a chance to play everyday as long as he is able hit and field to the team’s satisfaction is so unfair for him. A 30 year player like Frandsen who may have found the key to success in hitting can be a late bloomer and make past stats meaningless which I know annoy the statheads (chuckles).

     
  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    Eric, Bruce, we don’t know yet if Young or Frandsen is the starting third baseman. i love Frandsen and want him to get the job. The Phil’s acquired a piece, a much better piece than Minny Mart or collapsing polly. Call it an insurance policy for Frandsen/Utley. Young can be plugged in for either. RAJ understands the team needed more proven depth at 2b/3b. Solid move given what was available and other team needs.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      “we don’t know yet if Young or Frandsen is the starting third baseman”

      Joe,

      Young negotiated a non trade clause with the Phils for the remaining year of his contract. So we know there was conversation between the 2 parties. Secondly, it was reported, and there’s no reason to think it’s not true that the Phils were recruiting Young as though he was a first round draft pick.

      Soif you think there is open competition for the 3rd base job, and they didn’t all but promise him a steady position (for the first time in about 3-4 years), you think differently than me. Young would make for a pretty good super sub, but it’s near impossible to think that’s of interest until next year at the earliest. You can like Kevin all you want, but the more important thing is how the club perceives him, and it doesn’t seem as high as you.

       
  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    KB, no doubt third is Young’s position to lose. I like either Frandsen or Young as the 3b or 5th infielder. No more Minny Mart, yeah!

    I’ll take Young 1/$6 vs Youk 1/$12 if it means getting a quality setup guy, starter and RF. too early to judge the deal. If those 3 pieces don’t follow then I will be less enthused.

     
    • Posts: 0 EricL

      But it’s not Young at $1/6 versus Youkilis at 1/$12, it’s Young at 1/$6 plus Lindblom and Bonilla versus Kevin Frandsen for nothing.

      The improvement from Frandsen to Young is minimal, especially when you factor in Young’s terrible defense. That minimal improvement is why people who are opposed to the trade were okay with going very cheap at third – because that allows them to improve the SP/OF/Reliever positions even more, because they’d have an extra six million to spread around them.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        To those disproving of EricL’s style, rumors are circulating that he is having keyboard problems, and half sentences are popping out under his name.

        Case in point….

        What appeared from his post…

        “The improvement from Frandsen to Young is minimal, especially when you factor in Young’s terrible defense.”

        What would have appeared if he’d fix his keyboard……

        “The improvement from Frandsen to Young is minimal, especially when you factor in Young’s terrible defense compared to Frandsen’s mediocore defense at 3rd base.”..

        This is called putting words in someone’s mouth. Having gone through this brief experience, it’s really not such a bad thing. Downgrade from felony to misdemeanor, Your Honor.

         
  • Posts: 0 arc

    Ruben: we need to get rid of an old ineffective injury prone third baseman. AH Ha, I got it; lets replace him with an old ineffective injury aged third baseman. Ruben, stop trying to be smarter than you are. Baseballs not that complicated as some fans like to think it is.

     
    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      “injury aged”? Young isn’t very good, but based on his history he can be expected to be ineffective for 150+ games.

       
      • Posts: 0 arc

        you cant expect anything from a 36 yr old other than injuries.

         
    • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

      And your alternatives? Please stop trying to second guess professionals who have more detailed information about the market than you or I could access.

       
  • Posts: 161 therookie300

    Avatar of therookie300

    If this is what it takes to get rid of MiniMart, then so be it.

     
 
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