Report: Phillies Talked with Cleveland About Cabrera

Posted by Pat Gallen, Tue, December 11, 2012 06:32 AM | Comments: 42
Analysis, News, Opinion, Posts


Ben Revere or Asdrubal Cabrera? According to Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Phillies were in talks to acquire Indians shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera to play third base. They offered the Indians Vance Worley and a prospect (seemingly Trevor May), but Cleveland asked for a little more and the Phillies backed out. From Hoynes:

Before the start of the winter meetings last week in Nashville, the two teams were talking about a trade that would have sent shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera to Philadelphia for right-hander Vance Worley and prospects.

The Phillies were looking to improve their aging offense, but they didn’t want Cabrera to replace shortstop Jimmy Rollins, who is signed through 2014. They wanted the switch-hitting Cabrera to play third base.

Philadelphia offered Worley and two prospects. Worley made 23 starts last season, going 6-9 with a 4.20 ERA, before having right elbow surgery in September. He was 11-3 with a 3.01 in 2011 and reportedly will be ready for spring training. The Indians asked the Phillies to sweeten the deal, but they said no.

The question then is, who would you rather have seen become a Phillie; Revere or Cabrera? Cabrera’s has a pretty slick glove and a decent bat as well. Third base would have been taken care of, seemingly, for quite sometime. Ben Revere is very, very cheap and could be a Michael Bourn-type player in the future. Very interesting…

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  • Posts: 0 upandaway

    Cabrera would have taken over at SS in ’15, or if Jimmy got hurt. This,shows how much they overpaid for a MUCH less talented Ben Revere.

  • Posts: 0 DCmikey

    I like what we have.

    Would the sweetener have been Sebastian Valle?- we don’t know and the answer is no thanks

  • Posts: 0 phil

    I would still trade for Cabrera now and flip him and another prospect to land Justin Upton. Having said that I would rather have revere because of how cheap he is and because we have 2 good 3b prospects in the minors who are projected for 2014

  • Posts: 0 Mike in NJ

    IMO they went for Young because they think Asche will be a player and will be ready in 2014. They probably also think Galvis will be the everyday SS in a couple years when Jimmy is gone. IIRC Galvis played well in winter ball, so here’s hoping they are right.

    I don’t know much about Bonilla, but any trade that unloaded Lindblom was worth making. I think Young was a better one year option than Youk and cost them less.

  • Posts: 0 Jason

    They also could have gotten Cabrera and flipped him to Arizona in a trade for Justin Upton. The D’Backs want him bad and that could have been a sweet move for the Phillies.

  • Posts: 0 SJHaack

    In a vacuum, if the additional cost for Cabrera on top of May and Worley was another not-top prospect (easy to assume because the Phillies don’t have any of those!) it’s a no brainer. It’s actually easier to find talent for CF now than 3B, and it’s never been easy to find SS talent. I’d much rather have Cabrera than the combination of Young and Revere. It would have cost less for more value. Easy, done.

    • Posts: 0 George

      Valle, Joseph, and Biddle are all top prospects, and chances are the Indians wanted one of them as well as Worley and May plus whatever other prospect was mentioned: “Philadelphia offered Worley and two prospects.”

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    It’s not just Revere vs. Cabrera ….

    nor is it just Revere & Young vs. Cabrera…

    We have to wait and see what other moves the Phillies make… if Cody Ross, Nick Swisher, or Josh Hamilton are signed to play RF ….or if Ross and a decent Starting Pitcher get added..

    those are moves that the Phillies wouldn’t have been able to afford if they traded for Cabrera, but had to pay for a Free Agent CF…

    Either trade, Revere or Cabrera, improves the current club the fact that Revere is so young, and so cheap allows the Phillies the chance to do a lot more as Cabrera is set to make $10 M next season

    • Posts: 84 Tom

      Avatar of Tom

      Absolutely 100% correct Don! Don’t forget that we also get another proven clubhouse presence and all around well respected leader in Young for this year!! It was a great move to trade for a young, gifted CF than overspend for BJ or Bourne!!

  • Posts: 0 Pops

    Good post, Don. A little early to say what we should or shouldn’t have done. Revere hasn’t played a full season in the bigs yet. I have a feeling that he’s going to be a fan favorite for years to come.

    • Posts: 0 SJHaack

      Revere had 550 PAs last season. Suggesting he hasn’t played a full big league season is only technically true. He easily qualified for the batting title and played more than 5 games in every month.

  • Posts: 0 phil

    Nobody is mentioning how Cabrera loses value if he moves to 3B

    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      Maybe, maybe not. UZR thinks his defense at SS has been consistently bad, so moving to an easier position might actually benefit him in the overall calculation of value, but who knows.

  • Posts: 0 rc

    I don’t believe Cleveland asked for “a little more” and RAJ would not go beyond Worley and May if I believe this rumor at all. Only thing that makes sense to me is they just couldn’t agree on the right combination on a big package of players.

    No I would not trade Cabrera for Upton or Revere straight up, it’s not even that close really.

  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    Would a package of Dom Brown, Valle and Biddle be enough for the Indians? Cabrera to Zona and Upton to Phillies. Sign Sanchez and Adams.

    • Posts: 0 LouisianaPhan

      If Cabrera can be flipped straight up to Arizona for Upton, why wouldn’t the Indians simply do that themselves? It would require more prospects from us, and you’ve already given away Brown, Valle, and Biddle.

      • Posts: 0 rc

        I thought the rumors were Arizona covets Cabrera and Indians don’t want Upton, they prefer pitching or pitching prospects.

        Regardless I would keep Cabrera and Dom Brown . SS/3B much harder to find and more valuable than OF (Upton).

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    If the Phillies trade for Upton, I don’t know that they have enough money for Sanchez and Adams .

    Biddle is their only TOP 100 prospect – a guy that projects as a “top of the rotation” pitcher.. when they are looking at the tail end of Halladay’s career …. I think Biddle is the type of arm you want to keep in the organization …

    Also, for whatever it’s worth.
    Fangraphs are their Bill James predictions for next season see big things in Domonic Brown’s future:

    they currently predict 148 games, and 595 Plate Appearances… which won’t happen unless he’s an everyday, non-platoon OF:

    17 HR, 80 Runs, 77 RBI, 12 SB
    .274 avg/ .347 OBP/ .445 SLG = .792 OPS

    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      Speaking of Upton, these are his career stats away from hitter-friendly Chase Field:

      .250/.325/.406 (.731 OPS)

      2012 on the road:

      .252/.326/.344 (.670 OPS)

      Some of that is due to playing 27 games per year in pitcher-friendly SD, SF, and LA. But then he also plays 9 per year at very hitter-friendly Coors.

      • Posts: 0 Don M

        I always wonder how much of home/away splits are completely based on the actual ballpark vs. a player just “being home” … a more regular routine, comfortable, relaxed, confident, etc … and performing better due to those random things

        For instance… Cameron Maybin had better HOME stats than ROAD stats last year … small sample size I know.. but works for the point I’m trying to make

        Home 77 games: .268/ .346/ .389/= .735 OPS
        Road 70 games: .216/ .264/ .308/= .572 OPS

      • Posts: 5488 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Don I agree, most players hit better at home. But it’s hard to ignore extreme hitters parks like Coors or Chase. I wouldn’t touch Upton with a thirty nine and a half foot pole.

      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        In general of course there is a home field advantage, so it stands to reason that hitters will hit slightly better at home than on the road. In the NL this year, hitters had a .734 OPS at home, and .703 on the road.

        But yeah, a single year can be fluky. Maybin’s 2011 was very different from his 2012:

        home: .231/.294/.324 (.618 OPS)
        road: .294/.349/.457 (.806 OPS)

        ’11 and ’12 combined (averaging the OPS’s):
        home: ~.677
        road: ~.689

      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        You’re a mean one, Mr. Left. You really are a a heel.
        You’re as cuddly as a cactus. You’re as charming as an eel.
        Mr. Left.
        You’re a bad banana, with a greasy back peel.

      • Posts: 5488 Lefty

        Avatar of Lefty

        Finally! someone with the spirit of the season!

  • Posts: 5488 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    Who leaks this kind of information, and what purpose does it serve? Is it the Indians FO trying to tell other teams what Cabrera’s cost might be? Cabrera’s agent? The Phillies?

    I don’t get it.

  • Posts: 0 Don M

    part of what I’m getting at though is that you would hope? expect? that Phillies players would also perform better at home – just due to playing 81 games there, etc. .

    I think park factors can sometimes be exaggerated .. I remember that A-Gon or GONZO or wahtever his cool nickname is… was supposed to hit like 94 HRs in Fenway because when they took all the balls he hit at PETCO and calculated where they would have landed in Fenway, etc. . . . . players take different pitching/offensive approaches based on the fields they are playing on…. so nobody can say with certainty that a player will/won’t perform at X-level in a certain stadium. I think Upton would put up big numbers in CBP mainly because I think he’s a good hitter

    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      Sure, Phillies players do hit a little better at home. Over the past 5 years the difference is similar to the league average difference:

      .761 OPS at home, .732 OPS on the road.

      So yes, if Upton played at CBP, I would expect him to have a similar ratio. And since his road OPS has been .731, I might expect his home OPS to be about .761. Is that suppressed a bit by his division? Maybe, although he hasn’t struggled much there overall, with a career .762 OPS in those parks.

      As for AGon and Petco, as the site below shows, Petco kills left-handed batters, but only moderately hurts righties.


      And Fenway doesn’t help RHBs that much for home runs, since it turns many of them into doubles:


      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        Of course, since AGon is a lefty, much of the above doesn’t apply to him. :-)

    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      One more thing on park effects that might be interesting, this time regarding Michael Young:

      “For right-handed hitters, [CBP]‘s actually a tough place to play. Singles, doubles, and triples get a slight reduction, and home runs see the largest decrease. Because the park takes away from the offense of right-handers, pitchers are able to challenge hitters a bit more, leading to worse-than-average strikeout rates for righties. All told, it adds up to Citizen’s Bank reducing the offense of right-handed hitters by around seven percent compared to a neutral park.

      That kind of dip would be noticeable, but not a killer, for a hitter coming from a neutral environment. However, Young was in a park that boosted offense for right-handers, on average, by roughly a quarter more than what Philly’s stadium does. It’s almost lucky that he didn’t benefit from Arlington in 2012, as the drop won’t seem as severe. But it significantly reduces his chances of ever having another pre-2012 season, as the expected baselines for a right-hander in Philly are significantly different than those of one in Texas. And that’s without taking the natural decline that comes with age into consideration.”


  • Posts: 0 Psujoe

    Don, I’m counting on the Phil’s being ok with going over the LT in 2013, but not 2014. The pot grows $16 million in 2014 due to Young leaving and a $10 million increase in the LT. That alone absorbs Sanchez’ contract. So between Upton and Adams there’s plenty.

    I’m not convinced the Phil’s even upgrade the OF. Charlie is very high on Ruff and Chaie knows hitting.

    • Posts: 1135 EricL

      Avatar of EricL

      I think it’s hard to even project what their 2014 salary commitments are going to be. Utley and Halladay account for $35 million in 2013 which will be off the books, but who knows if they’re going to try to re-sign either of them, or try to get one or the other back at a discount or whatever.

      There’s either going to be a lot of payroll flexibility and a lot of holes to fill, or much less flexibility and no need to find a 2B and front-line SP.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    I will be back once the season starts and we know what we have. Not speculation.
    Hello everyone. Nice to see Donny M. Wheeler pontificating. I miss him.

    To me these moves are lipstick on a pig. Unless its a Hamilton type of move it really isnt going to help this line up alot. Its a bad line up thats old and only getting older with a manager who seems to not know anything but to run the same players out like its 2007.
    You all know what Einstein said about the definition of insantiy.

    I dont particularily like the Phillies chances to make the playoffs in 2013. The Braves and Nats are teams going in the opposite direction of the Phillies.

    The Phillies do have the chance of Halladay and Lee being the Doc and lee of 2011.
    Most likely it isnt happening because old pitchers with arms with that many miles on them dont tend to get better. Unless its 1998 and you are Roger Clemens.

    Ill hold out hope for the staff.

    The old guys in the lineup are a hopeless cause though. Too many years of bad coaching and tolerance of playing the game wrong. Its not thier fault. It was encouraged and allowed.

    Happy holidays to all.
    See you in April when I will be able to give you a better idea on what to expect.

    • Posts: 0 George

      Not speculation? What are you indicating by “It’s a bad lineup…” then?

      This may not be the lineup come spring and the Phils may add more pieces. So whether you say so or not, you are speculating just as much as everyone else is.

    • Posts: 0 hk

      I agree with a lot of your comment, but I am wondering how the Braves are going in the other direction. Unless I’ve overlooked a transaction that they have made, they have lost 11.8 WAR (Chipper, Bourn, Ross and Hanson) and added 4.7 WAR (Upton, Laird and Walden).

      • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

        When Andrew reads that, don’t expect him to change his mind. But what gives Andrew’s statement validity, at least on how the Braves are a candidate to head north is pitching that looks young and getting better, and Simmons looks like an infield anchor at short.

        Then there’s Dan Uggla. He can’t get any worse. I actually think he’s okay (some strengths, hot is hot when he is), but he’s so easy to poke fun at.

        I feel like Andrew posted in 1 language, and you answered in another. May you both live happily ever after.

    • Posts: 1092 betasigmadeltashag

      Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

      I really hope you keep your promisebecause your constant berating of Howard JRoll and Utly are just anoying now. Howard was coming off an injury that takes more then 8 months to recover from 100 percent, you just spew hatred and it is boring and borish and just plain mean and full of just the same thing over and over again you have not posted anything new or interesting in two ;years

    • Posts: 0 rc

      hello goodbye. Not sure I understand why you want to go for Hamilton since you say our old guys in the lineup are a lost cause and you seem to be claiming the definition of insanity is signing older players to big contracts. I can only assume you think they should go for it because they have some players.

  • Posts: 0 rc

    rumor Reds/Indians talking trade of Stubbs and SS Gregorius from Reds for Soo-Choo. might open the way for a Cabrera deal.

  • Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf

    Its been 4 years Beta and Ive nailed it every time.
    Every series. Every finish every players decline.

    But that was jsut my opinion. If you choose to think Howard and Rollins and Utley are still premier MLB players. Good for you.

    The line up has been letting this team down since the 2009 NLCS.
    Its not any younger.

    I certainly dont mean to be mean. Its looking at a team that went from WS winner to WS loser to NLCS loser to NLDS loser to no playoffs in successive years.

    It wasnt the pitching that let the team down.
    It was the line up. Led by Howard, Rollins and Utley for the most part.

    Not hatred. Just the facts. As to what I see from watching every game every year.

    Not speculating the line up is terrible.

    Ill try to check in a bit more often.

    Enjoy the hollidays everyone.
    I am waiting for my 5th of Chivas Regal from Brooks and my 5th of Crown Royal form Chuck A.
    Not to mention my irish rose wine from Lefty.

    Enjoy your team Beta!!!!

    • Posts: 5488 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Boones Farm Wild Irish Rose? Are you serious? I haven’t seen that rot gut slop since 1967 :-)

      So if I have this right, you won’t be joining Chuck, Brooks, Ken and me for the parade next October?

      Happy Holidays, Andrew- Don’t annoy your family too much, you get fewer presents that way.

  • Posts: 0 Phil

    I can’t believe there are no rumblings on here that the Phillies supposedly offered Hamilton 3 years and $80 million. I wouldn’t call Anthony Gargano or Glen Mac reliable sources though.

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