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Revere the First Step to a Successful Offseason?

Posted by Corey Seidman, Thu, December 06, 2012 03:23 PM | Comments: 109
Acquisitions, Analysis, Rumors, Signings, Trades, Transactions

Raise your hand if you thought Ruben Amaro‘s first big move of the offseason would be trading for Ben Revere.

Over at CSNPhilly.com, Jim Salisbury and I did a 20-man series on Phillies offseason targets and he wasn’t on the list. ‘Tis the beauty of the winter meetings.

Let’s break this Revere trade down bit-by-bit, because there are so many components to it.

Did the Phillies give up too much? Did they get enough? Where does Revere hit? How do they replace Vance Worley? What is the next move? Does this open the door for a Josh Hamilton signing? (Yes, and I’ll explain why…)

But before getting to those questions…

Ben Revere hit .294 with 40 steals last season for the Twins.

Who is Ben Revere?

He’s a 24-year-old outfielder who spent most of last season in right field for the Twins, but is unquestionably fast enough to handle everyday CF duty. He’s played over 1,100 innings in center and is regarded as a very good defender with an incredibly weak, Juan Pierre-like arm.

He hit .294/.333/.342 last season with 40 steals in 49 attempts. He has no home runs in 1,064 plate appearances at the major-league level, and he barely hits any doubles.

Last season, 66.9% of Revere’s balls in play were ground balls. Not only did that lead the majors easily, it was the highest groundball rate any qualifying player has posted since 2002, when the data first became available. This is a good thing … speedsters should be putting the ball on the ground and trying to leg out singles. Revere led the AL in 2012 with 32 infield hits and finished third in baseball with nine bunt singles.

At 24, he probably hasn’t yet hit his ceiling, so it is pretty silly to see some outlets analyzing the trade from the standpoint of “this is who Revere is, and he will never be better.” The Phillies are hoping Revere turns into the next Michael Bourn. Revere over the next handful of years will probably cost less than Bourn does in 2013 alone.

Did the Phillies give up too much?

Perhaps, but like all prospect trades, nobody knows if they gave up too much or too little for another five years. Revere is more valuable to the Phillies than Worley, because Revere fills a giant hole and will play every day. Worley, unlike Revere, has likely hit his ceiling. He’s a No. 4 starter who can get plenty of called strikes with his two-seam fastball but doesn’t have “great” stuff and is prone to wildness when he isn’t getting calls on the corners.

May has a huge arm and just as much upside, but after moving up to Double-A last year took a step back. His strikeout rate dropped from 12.4 to 9.1, and he’s still walking close to five batters per nine innings. He could be a No. 2 or No. 3 starter for the Twins someday. But it’s a big if. And the Phillies needed a centerfielder. It’s not as lopsided a trade as some might think.

May was a bit surprised by the trade.

“Ruben called me at 9 a.m. pacific to give me the news,” May told our minor league expert, Jay Floyd. “I’m not totally surprised, but it is pretty crazy to think about.

“I am very excited and it’ll be a great opportunity for me [with the Twins]. I’ll miss all the guys in the Phillies organization and I appreciate all of the opportunities I was given there. That said, I’m excited to get to spring training in Fort Myers and show the Twins and their fans what I’ve got.”

Where does Revere hit?

Probably second, so Jimmy Rollins doesn’t have to move out of the leadoff hole he and Charlie Manuel are so reluctant to remove him from. Revere could be a valuable two-hole hitter because of his high-contact rate, his ability to turn grounders into base hits and the threat of a bunt hit, not a sacrifice.

I’m picturing plenty of double steals in their futures.

How do they replace Worley?

This is where things get really interesting. As of this second, the Phillies’ rotation is Hamels-Lee-Halladay-Kendrick-Cloyd. But Tyler Cloyd did not pitch well at all in the majors last September and gave the Phillies little reason to pencil him in for 32 starts.

The Phils are now a player for a mid-level starting pitcher. Names include: Edwin Jackson, Jair Jurrjens, Erik Bedard, Dallas Braden, Francisco Liriano, Brandon McCarthy, Shaun Marcum and Carlos Villanueva.

So … can they make a run at Josh Hamilton?

The last and most important question. The honest answer is “yes.”

By saving so much money on Revere, the Phillies will have about $141.5 million committed next season to 20 players. That factors in salaries in the $414,000 – $600,000 range for Antonio Bastardo, John Mayberry Jr., Domonic Brown, Freddy Galvis, Josh Lindblom, Justin De Fratus, Phillippe Aumont and Mike Stutes/Jake Diekman.

The luxury tax threshold is $178 million. It includes player bonuses and benefits, so you have to have a cushion … you need to be at about $168 million to feel comfortable that you won’t be over at the end-of-season count.

That leaves the Phillies about $27 million to spend on the 2013 payroll. So, yes, they are a player for Hamilton and if they were to offer him a five-year, $110 million contract, they’d still have some money to sign a starting pitcher and cheaply fill a few bench spots.

Revere might not be B.J. Upton, Angel Pagan or Bourn, but unlike that trio he gives you the financial flexibility to improve in other areas. If Amaro can bring in a big-time bat, this has the potential to be his finest, most creative offseason to date.

Avatar of Corey Seidman

About Corey Seidman

Corey Seidman has written 210 articles on Phillies Nation.

Corey is Analysis Editor for Phillies Nation and also writes for CSNPhilly.com.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    Corey,

    When you say…

    “The Phils are now a player for a mid-level starting pitcher. Names include: Edwin Jackson, Jair Jurrjens, Erik Bedard, Dallas Braden, Francisco Liriano, Brandon McCarthy, Shaun Marcum and Carlos Villanueva.”

    Are you listing those pitchers in any particular order?

    I found your landscape of the ballclub as it stands now to be really, really solid.

     
    • Posts: 312 Corey Seidman

      Avatar of Corey Seidman

      Thanks Ken. That’s in no real order, though Jackson is clearly ahead of the pack. He’s gonna be more expensive, too.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

        never liked Jackson. he stinks. I’d go after Marcum. I like him

         
  • Posts: 1135 EricL

    Avatar of EricL

    Where are you getting your GB% for Revere? Fangraphs has his 2011 as being actually higher than his 2012 GB rate, at a mind boggling 68.5% in 2011.

     
    • Posts: 312 Corey Seidman

      Avatar of Corey Seidman

      EricL — Revere didn’t qualify in 2011. That stat was for qualifying major-leaguers in each season

       
      • Posts: 1135 EricL

        Avatar of EricL

        Ok, gotcha. Didn’t look at playing time.

         
  • Posts: 0 Cs

    Hamilton would change the balance of power, and I’m excited to see what SP we bring in.

     
  • Posts: 0 Dylan

    Sign me up for Brandon McCarthy!!

     
  • Posts: 0 Dylan

    Sign me up for Brandon McCarthy!! He would be a great number 4 starter.

     
  • Posts: 0 Brain

    Big IF on signing Hamilton at this point. They could in all likelihood go after whomever they wanted, but I dont see it happening.

    Hope I’m wrong

     
  • Posts: 0 Mike in NJ

    I will /facepalm every day if Jimmy is still hitting leadoff with the addition of Revere and (probably) Michael Young. Jimmy is the worst leadoff hitter in baseball and should be hitting 6th. Order should be:
    1) Revere
    2) Utley
    3) Young
    4) Howard
    5) RH power bat or Hamilton (RF)
    6) Rollins
    7) Ruf/Brown
    8) Chooch/Kratz

     
    • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

      I agree. although I’d still put Jimmy in at the 2 hole.

       
    • Posts: 0 EricL

      And I will double facepalm every day Mike Young bats third and Ruiz bats 8th.

       
      • Posts: 0 Mike in NJ

        If we get 2012 Ruiz then I’d /facepalm myself as well, but I think his 2012 was an aberration, and we’ll get something closer to his career averages this year, especially that he’ll be PED free. Young is a career .301 hitter, and the 3 hole is traditionally where your best hitter goes, and it breaks up the lefties…especially if we somehow end up with Hamilton.

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        “the 3 hole is traditionally where your best hitter goes,”

        As the team stands today, Young would be battling Rollins for 3rd best hitter on the team, behind Utley and Howard. And actually, my money would be on Ruiz to also hit better than Young in 2013.

         
  • Posts: 0 Dave P

    Fan graphs had an article saying the phillies overpaid for revere. That didn’t take long.

     
    • Posts: 0 Don M

      Mostly because that Fangraphs article thinks that Trevor May (not a TOP 100 prospect), is the best pitcher of all time …

      I get that the Phillies may have traded MAY at his lowest value .. but the first time the guy gets above A-ball, he has a terrible season – Should the Phillies really have made him an untouchable in this deal?

       
  • Posts: 0 Mike in NJ

    Let me add I doubt they will sign Hamilton. I think they’ll go with a guy like Cody Ross to play RF, especially now that odds are they’re going to have to go sign a SP. Hopefully Ruf can be that RH power bat and they can move Ross down to 7. You’re right that Cloyd should not be the #5, and I don’t know if any of the young guys are ready to be ML starters.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks

    I saw Revere play in two games against the Phillies in Minnesota last year. Nice speedster but no arm. He has plenty of range but when he gets the ball they will go first to third on him. This is not something that can be developed.

    Well, no one is perfect. He obviously should back leadoff but you are right most likely he will hit 2nd.

    At this point I think Swisher is a better fit than Hamilton. We still need a thirdbaseman!

     
    • Posts: 0 rabidfanscranton

      I couldn’t agree more, save some $ we need a third baseman.

       
  • Posts: 0 Russ

    Although i am always optimistic when it comes to the team and i have the utmost faith in Ruben Amaro and the rest of the crew, I dont like giving up on Worley so quickly. he had an OUTSTANDING short 2010 season and i think a fully healthy worley this coming season could be at that same level again…

     
    • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

      I always thought (even at the time) that his 2011 season was a fluke. We shall see who is right. I don’t think he’ll ever be anything close to that ever again.

       
    • Posts: 0 brooks

      Russ, after watching Worley pitch a lot, he really worked hard for his wins. 6 innings, 3 runs, 5 or 6 hits and a few walks. It was hardly ever really pretty but you could not help but admire or be amazed at how successful he was especially in early in his first year when strike outs were a rarity. Almost like watching Jamie Moyer pitch (of course this is an extreme), sometimes you wondered how he managed to keep winning.

      Outstanding is big praise, a really hard worker – definite. At first glance, it seems a lot to give for a little but – like I said in a previous post, Rube could have made a genius move here – young, inexpensive and on the upward swing of his career.

       
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    Whoever else the Phils acquire, you’ll recall defense was a problem at times last year, something that was out of sync with the previous years. Revere apparently offers strength in range, but there’s a tradeoff with said to be poor arm strength. Dom has a killer arm, but there’s tradeoff in his defense on the whole, and Ruf carries a rep for defensive non ability. Laynce Nix has a terrific arm which is what the bench will have to offer, but 3B could be shaky, too Galvis’d be a plus there, be it Fransden or Young seeing the bulk of the time.

    The move to help the offense is fine, and commendable, but you certainly don’t wanna lose sight of the importance of defensive depth. Particularly when it’s not as present in the starting lineup.

     
  • Posts: 0 Rob

    You would also need to figure in $$$ needed for some relief help as well especially for a setup guy. That is an achilles heel! Any ideas on who they can go after?

     
  • Posts: 9 Michael

    Avatar of Michael

    I agree with you that this trade saves a lot of money compared to a Bourn signing, but Amaro has definitely given the Twins too much in return. They got an Single-A-Pitcher for Denard Span, who is superior to Revere offensively and not that much worse with the glove and on the bases. And we gave them two potential middle-of-the-rotation starters we could really need once Doc and/or Cliff get a little older and start really regressing.
    I’m not gonna get comfortable with the idea of possibly signing Hamilton. We don’t need two Homer-or-Strikeout guys batting back-to-back. Especially when they’re both left-handed…we’ve been looking for that RH Power Bat ever since Pat the Bat left, and now we’re again without one.
    Maybe Ruben can straighten it out if he can pull of a miraculous deal for Stanton, cause he would be the perfect guy for the Phils.

     
    • Posts: 0 detriot ronny

      ever since jayson left you mean. he took over very well. great 5 hitter for us. i like swisher more than hamilton as well.

       
    • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

      What you got in Revere was a defensive CF ( which by the way, Charlie asked for)who is four year younger than Span and making only a little above the league minimum.

       
    • Posts: 0 Mike in NJ

      The kid the Twins got for Span is supposed to be a top of the rotation guy and better prospect by far than May, and May had a terrible year at AA. Worley is a bulldog, but probably already hit his ceiling as a #4. I wouldn’t argue they gave up too much in giving both guys up for a 2, maybe 3 tool guy, though. My intital reaction was that they did too much, considering we were hoping for Worley, May, and some other prospect for Justin Upton.

       
  • Posts: 0 John Matrix

    Im no baseball whiz, but this trade is kind of wierd. Now you potentially need a starter, on top of a 3rd baseman and bullpen help. You could have kept Pierre for little money and had a guy who can steal and bunt and has a low quality arm. You also had Scheirholtz too, and he woulnt have cost much.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

      that’s exactly what they got. Revere is like a young Pierre, with more upside. and they gave up nothing from my perspective. May and Worley are two #5 pitchers. 4′s on their best day. Worley will never come close to matching his 2011 season

       
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    If I admit to plagerism before I type these, is it still plagerism?

    “Instead of an old, expensive Bourn, they got a young, controllable one.”

    Isn’t that terrific?

    And secondly, also plagerized in not being first to acknowledge him, , that’s a helluva job by Jay Floyd picking up the quotes from Trevor May. Sometimes this breaking stories thing is way overdone. I mean WAY overdone. But I liked the angle. Sort of a hit em where they ain’t journalistic approach. Guys tripping over each other to get the next rumor, and Jay skillfully cruises to an interesting (at least to me), unique angle and I’d imagine was first to it. Really nice work..

     
  • Posts: 0 Terry Harmon

    Phils still need an 8th inning bridge to Papelbon. Remember… the 8th inning black hole was probably the single biggest reason (other than Utley/Howard’s injuries) that the Phils didn’t play in the post season. Assuming they land Young, I’d say priorities from top to bottom are Set up, RH corner OF bat, and then replacement starting pitcher.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      I think you raise a good point on the need for a setup guy, but I feel like you overprioritize it. Look at it realistically. Kendrick, Blanton, Worley, guys like that have teased us with some fine showings, but consistency from that sort of pitcher is just not there. Do you really want to go into the year with 40% of the rotation consisting of KK and Cloyd? Need is need, but I wouldn’t soft petal the importance of getting a starter now. I’d say the setup man might be the least urgent of the 3, but that’s not to say it’s not extremely important.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

        to me, set up man is far more important than a #4 and #5 starter. back end of the rotation starters grow on trees. you can always find a solid vet to plug in for a reasonable price who will keep you in games. but set up men are vital in today’s game. in the playoffs the last few seasons, bullpen has been by far the most important element of a team.

         
      • Posts: 0 Devin

        Ryan H – That just isn’t correct. Bullpen is important, but the teams whose bullpens have succeeded have been the ones who abandoned the idiocy of “setup men”. “Let’s overpay a relief pitcher to pitch almost exclusively in low leverage situations because that’s just what people do!”

         
  • Posts: 0 Mike

    I feel like Schierholtz had a better arm anyways. People keep saying hes a young Juan Pierre. Juan Pierre is one of the smartest baseball players out there. Is Revere? I don’t know but this just seems odd to me to pretty much be taking a downgrade both defensively and offensively from what Victorino gave us. I know he cost a lot and I’m not saying we should have signed him, but I feel like this trade is Reuben saying we messed up, so now we have to put a guy in center field who is a liability in even being able to throw a guy out at second. I mean honestly, if the outfield is now Ruf, Revere, and even Hamilton, which one of those can reach the plate? What were three of there bigger problems last year? The bullpen, the defense, and the bench, which in my opinion are the keys to winning a world series. Have we addressed any of those? No, and in fact, you may have downgraded by losing Schierholtz and adding Revere. Does Josh Hamilton and say Brandon McCarthy make this team a world series contender? No and I don’t even know if they can make the playoffs with that roster. So was it a “schrewd” move by Reuben? In my opinion, no, and in fact, slowly, but surely, he is running this team into the ground.

     
    • Posts: 0 LouisianaPhan

      Let me stick my head out of my office window for a second….

      Nope, the sky isn’t falling. Relax.

       
    • Posts: 0 rc

      ugh…schierholtz is a terrible idea. He has zero range in CF, he can barely get to balls down the line.

       
    • Posts: 0 Phil

      Does Revere, a corner OFer, Ruf or Brown panning out, a better starter to replace Worley who wasn’t very good, and a set-up man, make the Phillies a playoff contender? These are the moves I think Amaro will make and they do make the Phillies a playoff contender. Don’t use the words World Series contender because the best team doesn’t always win the WS. Please see 2008 Cubs, 2010 Phillies, 2011 Phillies, and 2012 Nationals.

       
    • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

      Dude, really all he needs to do is catch the ball and get on base. When you get both of those attributes at his price it WAS a shrewd move given Worley’s ceiling has been reached and they still have Pettibone and Biddle in the minors.

       
  • Posts: 0 Mike in NJ

    MLB network just said Young has vetoed the trade to Phily.

     
  • Posts: 909 betasigmadeltashag

    Avatar of betasigmadeltashag

    I will never get the hatred for Jimmy leading off, I know he is not your prototypical lead off guy but the Phillies have had a pretty good run with him there and did not have very much production when he was not. I would like to see McCarthy or Bradon from the A’s to fill out the #4 spot.

     
  • Posts: 0 Psu joe

    Revere is the 6th fastest player in baseball. He’s going to be exciting to watch. Was never a huge Worley fan. He has JA Happ written l over him. May does have good upside, but Phil’s got a regular position player who is cheap and under team control for a long time. I really wish RAJ signed Uehata to a one year dealike the sox did.

     
  • Posts: 0 Bart Shart

    Corey, Excellent article, as always. I am on the Revere bandwagon. If he is compared to a young Juan Pierre, the that is great, especially if he can go get the ball in centerfield.

    The next big question: Who’s next to don the red pinstripes.

     
  • Posts: 0 T. Martin

    But this only works if they get Hamilton or Upton (acquiring Upton after dealing Worley and May just became much more difficult btw). Otherwise I’d call Ben Revere a younger version of Juan Pierre or a “punching Judy” type of hitter except even Judy would be offended by that comparison.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

      I’ll take a whole lineup of “punchin judys” that hit .300

       
      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        @Ryan, a lineup of .300 hitters who don’t walk much and have no power would probably be the weakest in baseball.

        By the way, the term is “Punch and Judy” hitter, from the puppet show by the same name. The show involved a lot of hitting with sticks, and the term is believed to stem from the way the puppets held the sticks, tucked under an arm, which made for pretty weak hitting.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy

         
  • Posts: 0 Ryan H.

    really a great move that came out of left field. the phils got great value without giving up much of anything. Revere has tremendous upside. could easily be as good as Bourn in this league. Worley looked good one year with smoke and mirrors and a tremendous amount of luck, but he’ll never be anything close to that good again. he doesn’t have the stuff. he’ll have an ERA of 4.7 next year in the AL central. May will never be anything much better than Worley is right now.

    I still don’t want anything to do with Hamilton. Would rather commit some of the available money toward finding some lock down set up men for the bullpen. bullpens have proven to be the most important part of playoff baseball in the last few years.

     
  • Posts: 0 Colin

    Phillies WILL NOT PURSUE hamilton. Revere is left handed in a lefty dominant line up. Hamilton is a big mistake. I would rather see a cody ross signing honestly.

     
    • Posts: 0 brooks

      Cody Ross – nightmare -

       
  • Posts: 0 Daisy

    This trade is Amaro feeling he had to do something. After all, he’s the man. The Phillies got a young Juan Pierre. Michael Bourne can, run, play superior defense with a plus throwing arm. What this move shows me is that the Phillies are not perceived as contender by anyone outside Philly. Revere is sadly the best could do. Young is an over the hill 36 year subpar third baseman and he turned down the Phillies offer. So did Upton, Pagan, and others. If the Phillies believe Josh Hamilton will come to save the Phillies, the Phillies are doomed. What happened to Worley and May and other prospects for Fowler, a real center fielder? Ask yourself why the Twins did not use Revere as a center fielder and why they traded him when they needed a center fielder to replace Spann. Not so much a bad deal as a bad omen.

     
    • Posts: 146 Eric Seidman

      Avatar of Eric Seidman

      Fowler is a poor fielder and he hits like Revere when away from Coors Field. He is not a ‘real centerfielder’ in the spirit of the way you’re anointing him and dismissing Revere. The Twins were motivated to move him because they are completely rebuilding and the Phillies were willing to give them a lot of team control in the pitching department, which was a major need.

       
    • Posts: 0 Phil

      Fowler did not have a 3.4 WAR in 123 games last year. Revere did. He had a 2.9 in 143 games. Dexter Fowler plays bad defense and can’t hit away from the best hitting ballpark in baseball. Dexter Fowler hasn’t even had a WAR above 2.9 and he is 2 years older than Revere. Fowler would have been a bigger package as well. Michael Bourn at age 24…1.2 WAR in 105 games. Bourn is the better player, I don’t think anyone will disagree. That would be stupid to do so. But Bourn is 5 and a 1/2 years older, reached his ceiling, is A LOT more money than Revere, and will most likely be a worse play by 2017 than Revere will be.

      For the person comparing the Revere to Denard Span trade, we gave up more for Revere because he has 5 years of control at a very cost effective rate opposed to Span who has 1 with an option at an expensive rate. Once again, Span is the better player, by a good margin, but he costs a lot more at 2 years.

      The economics of this deal are simple. You just filled your CF hole for league minimum opposed to filling your CF hole for $10 million minimum that it would have had you went and signed Pagan. Or $13 million to bring back Victorino who wasn’t as good as Revere last year. Or $15 million for Upton, who wasn’t as good last year. $18 million or so to sign Bourn, who is a similar and better, but a lot older and more expensive. Or the $25 million or so it will cost to land Josh Hamilton, who was a good amount bit better, but is older, injury prone, etc. These contracts are all only for next year, too. This isn’t even taking into account about the fact that you will be dumping a lot more money into these guys for future year while paying Revere something along the lines of $500,000, $1,000,000 2,500,000 4,000,000 6,000,000 or so over the course of the years we have him. Now, you virtually have the same amount of money to go and fill the other holes we need to fill while filling our biggest hole which was CF.

      If we do indeed have about $30 million to spend I would avoid Hamilton and go after Swisher. Swisher will cost about $15 to $18 million for 4-5 years. A set up man will probably run you about $3-$7 million on 1-3 years, and another starter will probably run you about $7-$12 million over 2-4 years depending on who you sign for the pitching spots. As for the starter I would go after one of the guys mentioned or Ryan Dempster and for the set up man I would go after Mike Adams or Brian Wilson.

       
      • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

        Amen. Some reason at last.

         
    • Posts: 0 rc

      Yeah ok …bourn, upton , and pagan instead of Revere and no Josh Hamilton makes us an instant contender? wtf.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ryne Duren

        rc phil is right on the money with his analogy! i understand your point of those players you mentioned being better (right now) but revere has an upside. that’s the part some people don’t understand. just as phil said, he’s controllable for quite awhile at low cost.( With the upside).
        another thing is rube was shrewd he got this guy for two pitcher types that are in abundance # 4′s or 5′s. and now rube has accomplished two things with this move. 1 the team just got younger and faster. 2. he’s got more money left to make other moves to contend. and he’s doing this while actually rebuilding the team! he’s got the next manager ( sandberg) in position along with new hitting coaches. that was the first move and he’s giving ruf a full shot at rightfield, now revere. these two guys are the future. the bullpen got much younger last year, and after this year the infield will be younger. if rube can make this team stay in contention while actually rebuiding it ! well that would be a stoke of genius. and with a big TV contract looming. once we get close to being a real solid frontrunner then the phils can purchase the parts to round it out. if he can do this in 2-3 years well all be watching exciting baseball for years to come.

         
      • Posts: 0 hk

        Further to Ryne’s point, Revere also lets the Phils address CF and still have money – the money that they otherwise would have spent on Bourn, Upton or Pagan – to spend to improve other areas. If they don’t spend that money wisely, then they’ll deserve criticism. However, if they do spend it to replace Worley with someone like Anibal Sanchez (for ~ the money Upton got), the comparison will be Worley + Upton vs. Sanchez + Revere. I’ll take the latter pair, especially when considering that Upton would have cost them the 16th pick.

         
    • Posts: 0 c schreiber

      Dernard Span was the reason he didn’t start in CF except when Span was out of lineup.

       
  • Posts: 0 Psu joe

    Daisey what can I say, but wow. Phil’s aren’t as far off as u think. If they have even a decent setup guy last season who could hold a lead the Phil’s make the playoffs easily despite losing their 3&4 hitter, 4 relievers, backup second baseman #4 start pitching hurt and doc for a good strech.

    Phil’s just got younger with greater payroll flexebity and an opportunity to upgrade the rotation.

     
  • Posts: 0 bacardipr

    I think if Ross comes in at around 10 Mill or less i will go for him. Swisher seems to be asking for too much $$$. I say this while grinding my teeth as i hated Ross. lol

     
  • Posts: 0 CS

    Cody Ross, Brian Wilson, and Brian McArthy

     
  • Posts: 2968 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    I’m all about this deal. I like Worley, but trading him now makes sense. If Revere is anything CLOSE to what Juan Pierre is then Ruben made a fine trade here. I wasn’t all that excited about Fowler and hated seeing us spend mega dollars for Michael Bourn. Pagan and Upton were too expensive as well. And I wanted Vic back but NOT at 13 MM per season.

     
  • Posts: 4954 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    I’m hearing that the report that Michael Young vetoed the trade is false. MLB Network may have been duped. Apparently he has made no decision yet, stay tuned- 7:45pm

    Anyone else know about this?

     
  • Posts: 0 rc

    Anyone have any idea what McCarthy’s going to get? He has some injury risk history (before the head injury) but he’d be a great fit…control , ground ball guy, was the starter on opening day for A’s.

    Not a reason to get him but he’s a Colorado high school product like Doc…

     
  • Posts: 4954 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    My initial thoughts on the Revere trade are that it’s a slight overpay by giving up May. No big deal we needed a CF.

     
  • Posts: 0 Scruff

    With Worley and May gone, a questionable Halladay, and some money to spend… Anyone think Rube sneaks in and brings Greinke to Philly? I haven’t seen anything about the Phillies being linked to Greinke, which is precisely why I think the Phils could be a mystery team on him.

    I just feel like Rube is making these moves with one big one in mind…

     
    • Posts: 0 Phil

      I wouldn’t overspend for Greinke when you have a glut of starting pitcher in the minors and majors. Get a veteran guy on a 2-3 year contract until Biddle is ready to come up. I think May was a slight overpay for Revere, but May looked more like a bullpen arm with his lack of control than a starter in Philly.

       
    • Posts: 0 Jeff Dowder

      You’re overthinking this. There’s no way a team would allocate over $85 million of it’s payroll to four starting pitchers no matter how good they may be.

       
      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        Jeff, why wouldn’t a team spend $85 M on 4 starters, if it had $90 M to spend on the rest of the team? Or, in other words, if a team already had $65 M allocated to 3 starters, why would it be better to allocate the next $20 M to another position?

        Does it make sense to have one or two $20 million pitchers, but not four? I don’t see why. Maybe you’re saying $20 M is always better spent on position players than on pitchers, although of course that’s not what the market indicates.

         
  • Posts: 2968 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    Zack Greinke and his “mental problems”…whatever they are, exactly….would never make it in Philly.

     
    • Posts: 0 Phil

      Agreed. I would really like Ryan Dempster as our 4th starter. Brandon McCarthy is a good choice as well as is Shaun Marcum. Go with one of those 3. Anibal Sanchez will cost too much.

       
    • Posts: 0 Ryne Duren

      chuck i don’t mean to be a dick but. what’s with greinkes hat? did you ever notice that his cap is all like puffy or something. it’s almost like if he takes it off he has like an alien head or something. sorta like poly. i don’t know he just looks like his head or his hat is way too big!
      maybe that’s the mental thing they talk about. maybe the wieght is just too much to bear and it causes problem. i have a simular problen, only through lack of hair. you know maybe not enough weight! maybe it cause me to right stupid shit like this! wonder how much the stinking dodgers would pay me to counter balance his problem.

       
  • Posts: 0 Scruff

    Phil, you make good points. And Chuck, you’re right too. Not saying I want Greinke, I just know Rube has quite the ego, and Greinke is the big fish out there this offseason. I guess I’m just saying I wouldn’t be surprised to see something like that happen.

     
    • Posts: 0 Phil

      Ruben is more likely to pay a decent veteran around $10 million a season and sign Hamilton than just sign Greinke.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ryne Duren

        hey people we’re having fun again talking about the phils. hope is wonderful! i can’t wait for rube’s next move! and then bring on spring training i’m ready!

         
    • Posts: 0 rc

      I really don’t think Phillies should waste their time with Greinke , he’s headed to Texas or Dodgers, no point getting in a bidding war with those teams and it’s going to be a huge contract.

       
      • Posts: 0 Ryne Duren

        what’s with the dodgers? it seems like every high priced FA is on their list! every article i see it the dodgers this the dodgers that.WTF ! what the heck is their payroll look like? i don’t hear any reporters talking about it like they do with the phils payroll. i hope they sign em all and go bankrupt!

         
  • Posts: 276 Jeff of Nova

    Avatar of Jeff of Nova

    Okay throwing in my 2 cents! Kinda got tired of reading all the negative and how horrible this is from the typical debbie downers on here.

    I think this is a great trade and will look better if and when RAJ gets the power bat to go along with him.

    Compared to other CF options
    Bourn a non option- too expensive and not worth the money
    Upton BJ too much money- and hasn’t been the hitter he was in 2008
    Pagan- fools gold had a nice season last year but is getting way overpaid
    Upton J- way too many prospects that we just done have to make that deal happen.
    Fowler- is a product of his park, not that great of a CF imo

    Revere is fast no he doesn’t have power but he is young and you can’t teach that kind of speed.

    If RAJ gets Young too I am real excited.

    You look at this and I see us giving up Worley- I liked a lot, but we are built around our big 3 not him. He is a nice 4 starter, May is a prospect…. period. RAJ has done a great job in bringing in good players and not dish out someone that really has turned into a stud as of yet… so I tend to trust him.

    I see a lot of panic about a 5th pitcher, we have a log jam of young pitchers knocking on the Major league doors. I think many will get a look at Spring Training, my bets are on Cloud or Pettibone and maybe an inexpensive vet as well.

    THis opens up a huge amount of payrole flexibility like Corey mentioned.

    I would love Hamilton cause of his initial impact, but it is looking like 4-5 years at 22 mil or more.
    Swisher may be a better fit financially.

    Just my 2 cents

     
  • Posts: 0 Psu joe

    Phil’s are already a contender, but there’s more work to be done. Anyone know how serious Adams disease/condition is? I’d love him for 2 years and get Aumonte ready to take his place.

     
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    Somewhere in the vastness of remaining needs is a player coming to the Phils we expect to fill the role. But that’s pretty cool that the management team did its own homework, made its own decision, in its own time.

    Now, we already have suggestions of Brian Wilson and Mike Adams, similarly well known compared to the CF candidfates that went elsewhere. Now 1 of them may wind up filling the bill, or we may see Young at 3rd, or a known commodity as another corner guy, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Ruben and Team are studying the economic and baseball skill crossovers, and trying to find a sleeper middle relief guy they feel could handle the 8th inning. Brian Wilson and Mike Adams have both had glory days, and may have more. But to generalize, a reliever on the way up might be a good thing. Despite their past glories, both Wilson and Adams are coming back from injuries, and don’t fit the profile of too anxious for a discount this early. And although it’s iffy, one of the young bucks still could be a lot better next year. Today was a good day, expensive or not, but the object is to parlay it. Lots of questionmarks remain.

     
  • Posts: 0 Psu joe

    KB,
    I loved the initial trade rumor for Lopez. Perfect inexpensive fit. If RAJ finds another one like that then awesome. I’ve loved Adams for years, just not sure of the seriousness of his injuries.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      Lopez is pretty much the kind of guy of whom I speak, A down under type. Adams suffered from a nerve problem that brought on surgery, but I don’t think the market for him will slow as he’s expected to make a full recovery. He’d be a nice add, and you don’t get the feeling he’s as gung ho about moving into a closing role as Madson. He was just outstanding in San Diego. But everything is outstanding in San Diego.

       
  • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

    I wonder if Don M. is aware that if he wins our high stakes wager on Kevin Youk’s pay plan, and offers a double or zip on if Mike Young says yay or nay, I’m accepting, and taking the yes side. Not to put pressure on Youk to sign fast, but as a self proclaimed master of money management, I only do 1 wager at a time.

    Youk for a lot
    Young at 3rd at the Bank

    My parlay play of the near term future

     
  • Posts: 521 Bruce

    Avatar of Bruce

    In time we will have a better perspective and judgement on the player Amaro aquired for a steep price. First impression are not always accurate but I’m afraid that Amaro allow his concern on financial resources to override his good judgement on fulfilling the Phillies’ needs for a top quality player in a important position of CF.

    Amaro may not have overpaid financially for a center fielder but he overpaid significantly in arms and take one further step at fully depleting their farm system to get a player in Revere. The 24 year old player with the weak arm and a powerless bat does possess good speed and makes consistent contact in hitting. He may be a work in progress since he has played only two seasons in the majors. He is not a natural lead off hitter since he does not draw many walks. Revere was walked just 29 times last year, roughly a third of the times Rollins was (62).
    I also read his “ISO (Isolated Power measuring how good a player is at hitting for extra bases) of .044 in his career is the worst of any player with 1000 plate appearances since he appeared in the Majors, lower than Juan Pierre, James Carroll and Ryan Theriot.” To further emphasize how bad that is, his new teammate, and pitcher, Cliff Lee has a career .058 ISO.
    The trade has been made ..for better or worse… as the Phillies are hoping he can fulfill Victorino’s role minus the power. Personally, I rather lose cash to Victorino or Bourn then to lose a 4th starter in rotation and top prospect in the farm system. *sigh*

     
  • Posts: 0 phil

    Bruce…he had a 3.4 WAR in 123 games. Let me know how many wins Worley has had in his entire major league career.

     
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    I am convinced that this trade as well as the potential one for Young is only Phase 1 in a larger plan that Ruben has. He will spend money before this offseason is done, the question is on what. This is going to get really interesting.

     
  • Posts: 0 matthew

    shaun marcum is the best from that list…him and kendrick could be the 4th and 5th starters…hopefully the young trade goes through, and then they might be able to trade for michael morse (if the nats sign laroche)…that leaves alot of money to spend on a bullpen that needs tons of help

     
  • Posts: 0 Phillies fan from Germany

    I really like this ttrade. Obviously Revere at this point is not as good as Bourne but I am pretty confident that in the coming 5 seasons he will provide similar value like Bourne for a fraction of money since at his age is most players are still getting better while Bourne will probably get worse each year due to his age.

     
  • Posts: 276 Jeff of Nova

    Avatar of Jeff of Nova

    I am starting to think Young is going to say no.

    its not about money, his family is situated and he is more of a west coast guy, Arizona Spring Training, etc.

    Unless he truly thinks that what the Philles have set up for the next 2 years is better than the Rangers than I figure he is opting to stay in Arlington.

     
    • Posts: 821 schmenkman

      Avatar of schmenkman

      “…what the Phillies have set up for the next 2 years…”

      Young only has one year left on his contract, and then is a FA.

       
  • Posts: 2 djg from mt airy

    Avatar of djg from mt airy

    Everyone needs to chill — Rube has this figured out. Revere will be a good centerfielder who gets on base and scores runs for at least the next 5-6 years. If we can upgrade the power production at 3rd base with Michael Young then our team is set. We will be fine with a Ruf / Nix platoon in left and a Brown / Mayberry platoon in right. The flexibility with those outfielders will be great… as long as Charlie is up to the task of actually managing. With Young in place at 3rd we will need a 4/5 starter (Kyle Lohse?) and one more reliable bullpen piece but then our team should be essentially done.

    Lineup vs. RHP…

    Rollins
    Utley
    Young
    Howard
    Ruf (or Nix)
    Brown
    Chooch
    Revere

    Lineup vs. LHP…

    Rollins
    Utley
    Young
    Howard
    Ruf
    Chooch
    Mayberry
    Revere
    Brown

     
  • Posts: 2 djg from mt airy

    Avatar of djg from mt airy

    Everyone needs to chill — Rube has this figured out. Revere will be a good centerfielder who gets on base and scores runs for at least the next 5-6 years. If we can upgrade the power production at 3rd base with Michael Young then our team is set. We will be fine with a Ruf / Nix platoon in left and a Brown / Mayberry platoon in right. The flexibility with those outfielders will be great… as long as Charlie is up to the task of actually managing. With Young in place at 3rd we will need a 4/5 starter (Kyle Lohse?) and one more reliable bullpen piece but then our team should be essentially done.

    Lineup vs. RHP…

    Rollins
    Utley
    Young
    Howard
    Ruf (or Nix)
    Brown
    Chooch
    Revere

    Lineup vs. LHP…

    Rollins
    Utley
    Young
    Howard
    Ruf
    Chooch
    Mayberry
    Revere
    Brown

    But please don’t sign Josh Hamilton — he’s in the Mike Vick, A-Roid category. I want players I can actually cheer for and feel good about having my children cheer for.

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      Well, here’s a ninteresting post. Higher math always gave me problems, but in counting this lineup, looks like Mike Young has been nominated to hit number 3. I’m trying to remember if Charlie ever hit Mini Mart out of the 3 hole. Actually, I might be wrong. Young is listed 3, but the post runs twice. So Young maybe hits 6? Or is this Game 1 and Game 2 of one of next year’s doubleheaders?

       
  • Posts: 0 Dave P

    Question – what kind of relationship do Michael Young and Josh Hamilton have?

    Could Amaro be trying to trade for Young in order to help attract Hamilton to Philadelphia?

     
    • Posts: 0 Ken Bland

      I don’t know about Young and Josh. Josh and Kinsler are good buds. Cliff, Josh and Kinsler were pretty friendly while they were all there, too.

      Young would fit pretty well in the clubhouse. His biggest weakness is he’s dimented as a footbalkl fan. Huge Dallas Cowboy fan. RyHo will break his neck to straighten that out, and everything should be fine. Mike Adams might even be worse than Young in that area.

      Re Jeff’s incoirrect guess that Young will decline the trade because he’s a west coast guy, I’d say it’s not impossible his agent encourages discussion between the Rangers and Dodgers to see if there’s market there for Young, who grew up in Covina, Ca (pretty sure). Guess they have to move Dee Gordon to put HanRam at short, and that might make it doable for Young. I don’t know any reason to get too hooked on Young being averse to playing on the East coast. New league, new world tour, might make for a nice wind down portion of his career. The Rangers simply can’t keep him over the young talent. He’s got to be realistic and accept a move. Full-time gig here is as good as it’s likely to get, even if he has other geographic options. I’m sure Cliff will talk to him. But Joshi is going where God wants him. So he says. Mike Young ain’t God. Just ask hk.

       
 
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