The Starting Rotation Conundrum
Posted by Eric Seidman, Mon, December 10, 2012 11:15 AM | Comments: 51
Acquisitions, Analysis, Commentary
The Phillies pulled off a solid yet risky deal last week to solve their centerfield dilemma but simultaneously created another area of need. By including Vance Worley in the Ben Revere trade the Phillies current rotation would feature Kyle Kendrick and likely one of Tyler Cloyd or Jonathan Pettibone behind The Big Three. That isn’t the most appetizing back-end of a rotation, especially not for a team with hopes of contending.
While Kendrick is a capable #5 starter, he shouldn’t be relied on for more than that, and Cloyd showed little last year that would make one suspect he can perform at a league average level over 30+ starts. Pettibone and other top pitching prospects — Jesse Biddle, Adam Morgan, Brody Colvin, Ethan Martin, etc — could thrive if given the opportunity but they all carry significant risk since their major league talent level is unknown. The Phillies are in a position to minimize risk in the rotation so a Kendrick-Cloyd back-end is suboptimal.
The Phillies, plain and simple, have to do something with the rotation.
They don’t have to sign Anibal Sanchez for 4-5 years at $14-$15 million per year, but they no longer have the luxury of waiting until next year to bolster the rotation, when the free agent market looks abundant with good, reliable starters. Luckily, there are still several intriguing names on the market that could help the 2013 Phillies without requiring much of a commitment beyond next season. The Phillies could make a short-term move right now and look to make a bigger splash next offseason, or they could forego next year’s market and look to sign a better starter right now.
The Phillies are faced with a very interesting decision that really boils down to their thoughts, both in the short- and long-term, on Roy Halladay.
With Halladay’s future very much in question here, it’s possible that the Phillies enter the 2014 season with just Cole Hamels and Cliff Lee under contract in the rotation. Some of the young arms may start to emerge as viable major league starters by then, but it’s likely that the Phillies will need another reliable arm to round out future rotations. The decision really depends on Halladay’s health, production, and potential willingness to stick around beyond this season at a reduced rate.
If Halladay rebounds the team could spend less in the rotation this and next year, bolstering it with your typical #3/#4 starter on a short-term deal. If the Phillies don’t believe he will stay, or opt not to re-sign him, it might make more sense to go for a stronger starter now on a multi-year deal who will help form a new Big Three next year. The benefit of the first scenario is that it wouldn’t preclude the team from making a rotation splash next season.
Splashes are risky since baseball contracts are guaranteed. However, the Phillies are in a tough spot because they have to make a present decision based largely off of future information. With that in mind, it’s probably better for the Phillies to avoid a larger deal with a starter now, instead opting for a short-term stopgap on a 1-2 year deal.
In doing so, they avoid doling out a lucrative contract now when it’s possible that a cheaper Halladay could provide more value than anyone else next year. In that scenario, they would have a productive short-term stopgap as the #4 starter both years, while the less expensive Halladay proves better as a #3 than anyone else they could sign for more money.
Below are, in my opinion, the best available options for each scenario. These aren’t comprehensive lists of everyone available, nor are the players listed in order of preference. These are the guys who I consider realistic fits based on what we know about the Phillies finances and Amaro’s modus operandi and the idea of minimizing risk at the forefront.
The Short-Term Stopgaps
Roberto Hernandez: The artist formerly known as Fausto Carmona isn’t the flashiest of starters, but he is a big-time groundballer who can limit walks. Some of his surface numbers look better when translated to the National League and he isn’t going to cost much coming off of an identity- and injury-shortened season. Since 2009, he has a 13% strikeout rate, 8% walk rate and 55% groundball rate. His 4.46 SIERA is middle of the pack in this group.
Jair Jurrjens: Has a similar strikeout and walk profile to Hernandez — 15% strikeout, 8.5% walk — without the benefit of a top-notch groundball rate. Has the lowest ERA of these pitchers over the last four years at 3.54. However, it’s unclear if he will continue outperforming his peripherals or if he will continue to regress like he did last year. His 2012 was disastrous, but we don’t know if that was an aberration, and he is an interesting low-risk, medium-reward candidate even if he never gets back to his 2008-09 productivity.
Shaun Marcum: Was essentially every bit as good as he was in 2011, only over a smaller sample of innings given his health issues. Over 21 starts last year, he put up a 3.70 ERA and 4.02 SIERA, with a 21% strikeout rate and an 8% walk rate. His walks were up, but that’s compared to his usually excellent control, and he could prove valuable on a two-year, $14 million contract similar to the one Brandon McCarthy just signed. Health is a concern with Marcum, especially since the Phillies will look to minimize risk here. It could be argued successfully that 32 starts of a slightly lesser pitcher is more valuable than 22 starts from Marcum and health is a clear reason why the Phils should avoid Erik Bedard. If Marcum is healthy he is the best pitcher in this group. However, if he was clearly healthy, there would have been more of a market for him thus far.
Kevin Millwood: Don’t laugh, he has been a lot better recently than you might think. He spent 2008-09 with the Rangers, averaging 3 WAR over 183 innings. He spent the 2010 season in Baltimore and tallied 1.3 WAR over 190.2 innings. He pitched much better than a 4-16 record would indicate. He spent much of the 2011 season in the minor leagues, but threw impressively over nine starts with the Rockies, producing 0.7 WAR in 54.1 innings, with a 16.2% strikeout rate and just a 3.6% walk rate. Which leads to last season, when he was a perfectly league average pitcher with the Mariners, putting up 2 WAR over 28 starts and 161 innings. He isn’t exciting, but he’s a good bet to give the Phillies 25-30 starts and 175+ innings of at least 1-1.5 WAR, and maybe more than that. On something like a one year, $3 million contract, that is pretty valuable.
Joe Saunders: If he can be had for $5 million or less, Saunders is an interesting pitcher. We know his floor is in that 1-1.5 WAR range, but he tallied 2.5 WAR over 174.2 innings last season, posting the best strikeout and walk rates of his career. If teams shy away from him out of fear of regression, but he actually has improved, his signing could pay dividends. He is another pitcher that minimizes health risk, even if he isn’t the best of the bunch.
Carlos Villanueva: A few years ago, I remember telling Corey and some friends that Villanueva was bound to breakout. That assessment was mostly due to his stellar performance against the Phillies when he was a Brewer. He never really took that next step until last season, when injuries forced him into a rotation role in which he thrived. He is too talented to be relegated to pure relief duty, but after pitching out of the bullpen for so long there are natural and justifiable concerns about his durability. He wants to get paid like a starter but that seems unlikely. If the Phillies can sign him at a reliever’s rate and use him as a starter, this could turn out to be a solid, creative, under-the-radar move.
More Lucrative Deals This Offseason
Ryan Dempster: The Phillies haven’t been mentioned at all in connection to Dempster, considering his age and his contractual requests. This isn’t to say they couldn’t get involved in the sweepstakes late, but it seems more likely than not that Amaro would look to go younger when doling out a longer-term deal to a starting pitcher. Dempster may have been one of the most underrated starters over the last several seasons but it isn’t exactly prudent to pay a 36-year old $13+ million per year over three years with more pressing issues to solve elsewhere on the diamond and viable pitching alternatives available.
Edwin Jackson: Everyone thought Jackson put himself in a decent spot last year by signing a one-year deal with the Nationals that set him up for a bigger payday this offseason. However, it’s starting to look like he might have to settle for something similar this year, which hurts given how deep next year’s market looks. It isn’t that he pitched poorly, as he fell just shy of 3 WAR over 31 starts and 189.2 innings. It’s just that he didn’t blow anyone away with his performance, and is surely seeking a $12 million annual salary. For that type of salary, the Phillies would look for more than just durability and solid performance. They would want the 4 WAR Jackson from the prior three seasons, which might not be in the cards.
Kyle Lohse: I wrote about Lohse in the 2013 The Hardball Times Annual, noting that he might actually have become one of those guys who induces weak contact with his new repertoire. That’s important because his BABIPs have been relatively microscopic the last two seasons. While it’s easy to brush him off as being lucky, note that he wasn’t successful the same way Jeremy Hellickson of the Rays was successful.
The Cardinals had a decent defense, but their team BABIP was close to .300, whereas the Rays team BABIP was closer to .275 over the last two seasons. While Hellickson was more a product of superlative defense, Lohse was doing something other Cardinals pitchers weren’t, and while one year might signal a fluke, it has now been two years of similar results. Again, it’s risky giving a lucrative, long-term deal to an older pitcher, but Lohse shouldn’t be written off based on a lazy first glance at his numbers that assumes he will completely regress towards a league average BABIP because that’s what happens.
Part of what makes this situation so interesting is what the Phillies could do in the rotation next year. The 2014 free agent crop includes Gavin Floyd, Matt Garza, Dan Haren, Josh Johnson, Tim Lincecum, Ricky Nolasco and Ervin Santana, among others like Ted Lilly, Paul Maholm, Tim Hudson and A.J. Burnett.
The Phillies could do some serious damage in next year’s market if the rotation requires a substantial upgrade, and sacrificing future flexibility to sign someone like Dempster, Jackson or Lohse right now seems foolish in the circumstances.
On the other hand, the Phillies have to do more than give Zach Miner an invitation to spring training. Millwood on a short-term deal, followed by a big signing next year, could go a long way. Or signing Marcum for two years and bringing Halladay back at a reduced rate next year is another feasible option. The wiggle room the Phillies have as a result of solving the centerfield issue for under $500,000 shouldn’t be wasted just because it’s available.
The Phils have to exercise fiscal responsibility with the rotation right now, and luckily, there are several short-term options that could produce better than Cloyd, Pettibone, et al, while not precluding the team from upgrading the bullpen or getting a legitimate offensive threat for a corner outfield position.

















Posts: 0 Bart Shart
Bolster the bullpen. Let one of the youngsters win the fifth starter job. Pay for an outfielder with right-handed power and a solid set-up reliever.
Posted: 12:26 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 phil
The guys you have listed in the short term other than Marcum aren’t very good reliable consistent or dependable. I would rather see what the Phillies get out of cloyd or pettibone than sign one of them. Save the money for the 2014 crop
Posted: 12:51 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 George
I really don’t see next year’s free agent crop as being all that great. Hudson and Lilly are as old as Millwood and Dempster, Burnett is almost the same age, Johnson and Haren are injury concerns, and the rest aren’t all that good, with the possible exception of Lincecum, who seems to have lost a bit. Might as well look at this year’s available pitchers, rather than wait to sign a different third or fourth starter, particularly since the Phils have a number of near-ready arms in their system.
Posted: 01:00 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 132 Eric Seidman
Who would you go for?
Posted: 02:29 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Ryne Duren
i’d go with sanchez! he’s better than all listed, and in his prime now. the rest aren’t that good anymore or have injury issues, or flat out getting old! we have enough of that! the jury is still out on doc, utley, howard. we have way too many question marks to be a seriuos contender this this. just being realistic.
Posted: 07:30 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 George
I’d probably go for health. What they can get in terms of performance has a lot to do with how much money they’re willing to spend. Age wouldn’t concern me if the contract is for two years or less.
I’m not trying to evade the issue, but these guys are mostly “six of one, half a dozen of the other.” Unless you’re talking about those more expensive guys like Dempster, you have to look primarily at which pitcher has his arm still firmly attached, his knees still solid, and his head on straight. After all, we’re talking fourth (or maybe even fifth, depending on Kendrick’s performance) starter here.
Posted: 04:53 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 CS
What failed us last year? The bullpen. I really think we need to think Mike Adams, Brian Wilson type signings. I’d love to go all in on Josh Hamilton, Swisher, etc. Or give a solid SP good money, but we can’t go into Spring Training with last years bullpen.
Posted: 02:22 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 132 Eric Seidman
I’ve mentioned this here before, but remember that bullpen is not a static term. The terrible bullpen from April-June was not the same bullpen in Aug-Sept, because the Phils kept trying different guys, and others who performed poorly got better or were removed. The Phils bullpen stats in Aug and Sept might surprise you.
August: 29.9% K-rate (1st in NL, 2nd place was SD at 25.8%), .182 opponent BA (1st in NL), 2.95 SIERA (3rd in NL)
September: 30.0% K-rate (1st in NL, 2nd place was Cin at 25.7%), .203 opponent BA (4th in NL), 2.93 SIERA (3rd in NL).
The bullpen down the stretch walked more than we would have liked, but it was overall a pretty effective unit for the final two months, when everyone kind of got into a specific role and things stabilized. Not to say they shouldn’t pursue someone else, but rather that the Phils bullpen as it stands heading into 2013 is much different than the crap we saw the first few months of the 2012 season.
Posted: 02:35 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Ryne Duren
agreed eric ! i’m not as concerned about the pen . in fact i think the pen is fine. if we got an establishe arm? ok i’m good with that. but we need a power bat way more than a pen piece, and a starting pitcher with worley gone, and KK penciled in as our 4or 5 starter? we’re asking for trouble there. way too inconsistant to actually rely on him. he’s had stretches of really good games then some we don’t even want to talk about. sanchez and stanton will do lol !
Posted: 07:36 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
I’m not as concerned about the bullpen.
This is where the Phils’ pen ranked in the NL in the second half:
ERA: 5th lowest (3.03)
K/BB: 5th highest (2.67)
K/9: highest (11.1)
OPS: 3rd lowest (.619)
AVG: lowest (.200)
I wouldn’t want to commit a lot of $ or years to add someone.
Posted: 02:39 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 hk
I would like to see them get Anibal Sanchez with the money that we all presumed was allocated to a CF. For comparable money, Sanchez as the 4th starter + Revere in CF > Worley as the 4th starter + Upton, Bourn or Pagan in CF.
Posted: 02:34 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 132 Eric Seidman
If they were going to pursue Lohse, Dempster, Jackson, etc, at 12-13 mil, I too would prefer Anibal at 14-15, but I really think they are going for one of the guys in the bin above. And along those lines I would love Villanueva.
Posted: 02:36 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 hk
You are probably right, but I believe that would be a mistake.
Posted: 03:00 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 1077 EricL
I agree with hk.
Except I’ll take it even further, I strongly feel that the Phils shouldn’t pinch pennies for the next 20 months or so. They should spend what it takes to get the best available players, which would be Sanchez in the rotation and Hamilton in the lineup.
Posted: 03:09 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 132 Eric Seidman
I’d love to see it happen, but I just don’t see Amaro going that route.
Posted: 03:16 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 hk
To add to my comment, it will be an even bigger mistake if the potential upgrade from Kevin Frandsen to Michael Young costs the team Bonilla plus leaves them with the likes of Villanueva instead of Sanchez.
Posted: 03:37 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 132 Eric Seidman
I don’t think it will preclude them from making a bigger move, but I don’t think Anibal has ever been on their radar, to the point that if they don’t sign him it was just a lack of interest and not anything to do with M Young. But I completely agree with you guys that, at this point, just improve the team. And Cody Ross and Erik Bedard don’t constitute guys that move the needle.
Posted: 04:25 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
Since I don’t see the Phils pursuing Sanchez, and I have a hard time figuring which reclamation project excites them most, time for some spaghetti against the wall, just to throw another angle into the mix.
Can’t say I’d blame the Padres for not being too keen on the idea of losing Edinson Volquez, but I wonder if some sort of package including Cloyd, Mayberry or Galvis and some mid range prospect might get them thinking. Probably just as unlikely as most other candidates.
Tough, tough choice.
Posted: 04:15 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Terry Harmon
I’d go with either Keven Correia or Carlos Villanueva… provided they could get either on a one year deal… both have decent durability… I’d love Marcum but he’s got durability issues and probably wants more money…Phils should preserve $$ for a RH outfielder and an 8th inning guy.
Posted: 05:16 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 phil
Nobody has brought up a trade. The Dodgers have a surplus of starters and I would certainly take one off their hands on the cheap. Perhaps just the likes of depth will entice them like Mayberry. I can’t see harang or Capuano costing all that much. A rotation of Kershaw greinke Beckett billingsley and ryu is great and leaves them with those 2 rotting away.
Posted: 05:45 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 rc
Maybe Capuano but he struggled in 2nd half – not sure why. I think I’d just as soon sign Saunders who isn’t great either but he did manage to pitch a couple of solid playoff games. younger , doesnt cost a prospect (we already gave up a bonilla). Harang is basically the same type of 5-6 inning pitcher who walks a lot of batters and can’t go deep either
Posted: 06:41 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 440 Bruce
Since the Phillies management may (or may not) be going outside their orginazation for a 4th or 5th starter (Kendrick can easily slide into the 4th spot after a most effective 2nd half performance of last season), I can think of two names that have not been given here. I do think they are still available as free agents… Randy Wolf and Brett Myers. Either one could be had for less than $10 million per year. And Brett Myers could be the team’s set up 8th inning reliever.
Posted: 06:14 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 rc
Good post I keep forgetting about Myers. Myers seems really logical if they can get him at the right price, the more you think about it. He’s about the same age as Saunders and he fits better than Marcum. Actually thought he was older than he is, I don’t know why. Gives you some nice flexibility also considering our young starters and young relievers. He has said he’d like to start but would be amenable to either.
Posted: 07:21 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 bacardipr
My feeling is that Rube figured it would be cheaper to get a 4/5 starter than one of the premier center fielder. Thus using that savings for a few other signing. Signing a guy like Sanchez will totally nullify that theory. This is unless Rube has something else up his sleeve. Im not comfy with the idea of having to rely on Cloyd/Kendrick as 4/5th.
Posted: 06:24 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
Uehata 1 year $4.25 would’ve been perfect. Oh we’ll. It will certainly be interesting to see who RAJ comes up with at pitcher.
Posted: 07:09 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 1046 Manny
If we want to be legitimate contenders in 2013, we’re going to need a big bat (Hamilton, ideally) AND a solid starting pitcher (Sanchez, ideally). [Bullpen doesn't really worry me.. we have enough arms, and as has been mentioned before.. the pen was very solid in the 2nd half of 2012.]
We can’t replace Shane and Pence (and Worley), with just Revere and some other marginal upgrade. Go big or go home, Ruben. If there’s one offseason in which he actually needs to spend BIG to keep us in contention, is this one.
Posted: 08:26 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 3450 Lefty
My feeling is the starting pitcher decision has to be based on what you can get on offense. It seems to me they really have 3 options-
1) Get Hamilton and a less expensive pitching option.
2) If you can’t pry Hamilton away, go for Swisher and a mid range pitching option.
3) Ross and the best pitcher available.
We won in 08 with marginal pitching after Hamels. IMO- Our SP’s are much stronger now even without a permanent 4th starter yet.
Posted: 09:05 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Alex M
I would completely agree that we really need to get an impact bat into this lineup to give it a spark. I ran the numbers of last years team verses the 2008 season. Last season the 6 best hitters(Howard,Rollins,Utley,Ruiz,Mayberry,Pence) hit a combined 95HR and 342RBIs. When they won the series in 08 the six best(Howard,Rollins,Utley,Vic,Werth,Burrell) had 163HR and 520RBIs. That is a significant difference.
However look at the rotation for 2008-
Hamels. Myers, Moyer, Blanton, Happ and Kendrick
Only Hamels and Myers (at the time) would truly scare me as an opposing team. And honestly Cole pitched better last season and in 2011 than he did in 08. Kendrick was sent to the minors and Happ actually started a game in the playoffs in 08. Here is the way I would project our rotation if the season started today…
Hamels, Lee, Halladay, Kendrick, Pettibone, Cloyd
When looking at that rotation to me it is better than 08 even with Pettibone as the 5th starter, much better. Even just adding a guy like Jurrjens, Pelfrey, Villenueva or Saunders would make this rotation very solid.
We need at least one more big time bat for this lineup, either Ruben needs to go trade for Willingham or better yet why not just open the checkbook for Josh Hamilton, offer the man what he wants 5-years, $115M and you finally have a big time bat to help out Utley and Howard. Howard has not hit more than 35HRs and over 120RBIs since 2009. We really could use that power that Hamilton brings.
Posted: 10:48 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
What’s Swisher asking 5/$100?
Posted: 09:11 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 phil
Our offense will be a lot better this year since we won’t have as many injuries and pence and Shane weren’t exactly lighting the world on fire before being traded. We have 2 unknown commodities in ruf and Brown so I would certainly get one corner OF and hope 1 of them pans out. If 1 does and we get swisher or Hamilton then our offense looks rather good.
Posted: 09:18 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
Phil’s have a ton of money under the following assumptions which believe to be true.
$21.5 based on Eric’s write up under the LT for 2013.
The LT goes up about $10 million in 2014, so 31.5 assuming status quo.
Young will not be back +$6 million so $37.5.
I believe the Phil’s wi go over the LT for 1 year under the right circumstances. That gives them enough money to get 2 or 3 major upgrades.
Posted: 09:28 PM on December 10, 2012
Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks
To me 2014 is the year to rebuild this team. They need to know about Halladay and if Utley has anything left (look I love him too but .256 is not worth $15 million – when he can play.
Hamilton is LH so can you really come up with a lineup with him that works? 2013 FA crop is weak. Young was a good plug at 3B. A middling SP is fine. Despite what you all think, Kendrick can be a #3 pitcher on many teams. I am not impressed with what we have so we will need to rent someone else for 2013.
Bullpen was not the issue last year – it was the starters. With the exception of Hamels, the SP was 1 ERA higher in 2012 than 2011. Look it up.
Posted: 12:25 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
“look I love him too but .256 is not worth $15 million – when he can play.”
Actually, it is, when it comes with (still) great defense at a premium position, among the best baserunning in MLB, very good on base skills, and decent power.
The stat that puts all of that together is WAR, and Utley compiled 3.2 WAR in his half season, 8th among all MLB second basemen. On a per game basis, the only second baseman in the game who was clearly more productive this year was Cano. And 2011 was essentially the same story, with Utley producing 4.0 WAR in 103 games.
The going rate on the free agent market for 2012 was that teams paid, on average, about $4.5 M per 1 WAR. That number seems to have inched up some this in this off-season’s market.
Utley is no longer the player he used to be. But the dropoff is from a) one of the 2-3 best players in the game period, and the best second baseman since Joe Morgan, to b) “merely” one of the 2-3 best in MLB at his position (when he’s playing). The key with Utley will remain to get him into 130+ games. Further decline will inevitably come some day, but for now he is worth $15 million and more.
Posted: 07:37 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
“Despite what you all think, Kendrick can be a #3 pitcher on many teams.”
Have to wonder what leads to that conclusion. That’s a rhetorical question. I’m part of the you all referred to.
Per the Utley stuff, this is one of the things that’s painful about being a fan. Age catching up with the ones you love and admire. Does it really matter all that much what XChase does in ’13 in terms of a contract? First of all, even if you put stock in Amaro’s “We’re paying Howard for what he’s done, not so much what he weill do” and allow for the possibility to do something similar for Chase, screeech….it’s already been done. Secondly, the list of 2B who continue to excell past age 34 is less than those that keep excelling until 37-38. Who knows, but I’d guess Chase thinks he can play, and wants pay after ’13. Chances of getting value in extending that for multiple years isn’t good. I don’t FEEL this way, but the way I THINK is in more ways than not, it’s gonna be time to part ways after this year. Almost no matter how his year goes.
Posted: 12:19 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
Lee was a stud last year as well as Hamels. BP finished well, but losing 13 games with lead in the 8th inning(not counting blown leads in the 9th) is awful. Last 1/3 was solid, but overall just not good enough.
Posted: 01:42 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Ryne Duren
yea joe you’re right! and the pen at the end of the year is not the same pen that blew all those games in may-july! another thing is. if you noticed an awful lot of young pitchers when moved up a level kinda struggle to a degree till they get acclimated and the game slows a bit. i think that’s what happened to a lot of the guys we brought up. but as you stated tha last 1/3 was good! most of these guys have really good stuff. i don’t see the pen as a problem this year. i’m more worried about the starting staff now and an week offense.
Posted: 07:49 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Psujoe
Keep in mind Frandsen hit over .330 with an OBP of about .380 the last half of the year and RAJ went out and got a third baseman.
Posted: 09:12 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Mike in NJ
Frandsen had a nice abbreviated season, but keep in mind he’s a 30 year old career .267 hitter even after hitting .338 last year that has bounced around the majors. It’s very rare for a guy to finally “get it” at 30, and I don’t have much confidence he could do anywhere near that over a full season…much like how most of us don’t think Mayberry will ever be anything more than a 4th or 5th outfielder. IIRC Frandsen and Young can also play 2nd to give Utley a day off against tough lefties and/or when he goes to the DL.
Posted: 10:08 AM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 1077 EricL
I’d like you to keep in mind that this: http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/apoplecticfittz/MY/myisbad2.gif is Michael Young.
Posted: 12:26 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 hk
EricL,
Thanks for that clip. I have never seen anyone guard the line as much as Young on that play. It looks like he was positioned with his right foot actually on the foul line.
Posted: 12:37 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks
Chase Utley is the HIGHEST paid 2nd baseman in all MLB. Yet he is not the best and he certainly cannot be counted on to play 150 games a year. After 2013 we have to go separate ways.
Chase Utley Philadelphia Phillies $ 15,285,714
2 Robinson Cano New York Yankees $ 14,000,000
3 Dan Uggla Atlanta Braves $ 13,146,942
4 Brandon Phillips Cincinnati Reds $ 12,500,000
5 Rickie Weeks Milwaukee Brewers $ 11,000,000
6 Brian Roberts Baltimore Orioles $ 10,000,000
7 Dustin Pedroia Boston Red Sox $ 8,250,000
8 Ian Kinsler Texas Rangers $ 7,200,000
9 Kelly Johnson Toronto Blue Jays $ 6,375,000
10 Freddy Sanchez San Francisco Giants $ 6,000,000
Posted: 12:40 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Cano is going to get a significant raise soon, of course.
Utley’s contract has been extremely team friendly over its term, and he is still earning every penny.
Posted: 12:46 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks
I don’t understand how his contract can be considered team friendly nor how he is earning it. His numbers have been drastically dropping every year for five years. He is paid the most in the MLB at his position and he does not perform at that level.
As I said, I love him but lets not confuse his effort with results. With his knees would you resign him in 2014?
Posted: 12:55 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Bob, where did I once mention effort, or grit, or hustle or any of that above where I outlined his value, in terms of WAR, and what that is worth on the FA market? I only discussed production.
If you want to add the intangibles on top, and you think they’re not already reflected in his stats, that’s another matter.
Posted: 01:06 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Pete Corc
@EricL that’s nonsense! Look closely you’ll see 1. His position is on the line. 2. The bad hop as the ball strikes the lip and takes off like a rocket. 3. IMO his valiant attempt to make the play.
You simply cannot judge a player based upon one play.
Posted: 12:41 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Agreed, you can’t judge a player based on a single play; it only exemplifies his terrible fielding.
He spent two seasons primarily at 3rd base: 2009 and 2010. By any of the three major advanced stats (UZR, Total Zone, Defensive Runs Saved), he was below average:
UZR: 7.6 runs worse than average in 2009, 5.4 runs worse than average in 2010
TZ: 10 runs worse than average in 2009, 4 runs worse than average in 2010
DRS: 15 runs worse than aveage in 2009, 11 runs worse than average in 2010
The smaller samples in 2011 and 2012 were as bad, or worse.
For his career at third base:
- UZR says that he cost the team 9.2 runs per 150 games, compared to an average third baseman.
- TZ says he cost the team 9 runs per 1200 innings (about 135 games), compared to an average 3B.
- DRS says he cost the team 13 runs per 1200 innings
Posted: 01:03 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks
No doubt about it that Young is not a great fielder. He will be pulled at the end of games that the Phillies are winning. We are looking for his bat to go back to his historic levels and will have to accept some fielding problems in exchange. Given first base we have done that for a long time.
Posted: 01:16 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Bob in Bucks
On Kendrick. His 3.90 ERA was 56th best for pitchers with 140 or more innings in 2012. With thirty teams that actually could make him a low #2. He had the same ERA as Yu Darvish although Darvish is in AL.
In the NL his ERA was #33. With 16 teams in 2012 that puts him on top of #3s in the league.
Better than Wainright, Westbrook, Edwin Jackson. Not to mention Halladay!
His numbers were even better in 2011.
Sometimes you need to step back and look at how Phillies are doing vs other players. When you watch every game you see all the problems, but only see highlights of others.
Kendrick is a damn good pitcher. He is not a superstar but he is still relatively cheap and when he is on he is very good.
Look at competitive stats before you decide how good someone is. Don’t rely on your memory.
Posted: 12:53 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
Looks like you sold yourself on him as a 3. I will definitely pass, even if the numbers you ran out there were strictly as a starter, or included bullpen. Having a better year, which could be defined as a more effective hot streak than Adam Wainright, coming off TJ is reason to support Kendrick as a 3 in comparison by the standard that people can think as they wish.
Posted: 01:20 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 DavidE
Cloyd certainly deserves a shot. And, if he doesn’t come through, you bring up Pettibone or Ethan Martin. There is no guarantee that a veteran player will do better. Was Chad Qualls the answer? Look at Baltimore, Tampa Bay and Oakland. The Phillies have a lot of good pitching prospects to choose from.
Posted: 11:26 PM on December 11, 2012
Posts: 0 bob Smith
Fausto Carmona! Phillies were linked to him many times in trades over the past few years (went for Oswalt once instead). He would be just the low risk/high reward kinda guy they want. Then sign Wilson to a 1 year deal to set up, and we should be fine with or without another outfielder.
Posted: 12:32 PM on December 12, 2012