Phillies All-Time Team: Right Field
Posted by Pat Gallen, Thu, March 07, 2013 08:56 AM | Comments: 41
Phillies All Time Team 2013, Posts
Where does Callison rank as far as Phillies right fielders go?
It’s up to you to tell us who should be part of the Phillies All-Time team. During the winter, we’ll unveil one position at a time for you to vote on. After all the votes are tallied, and all the position filled, we’ll release the results. Make your vote count!
- Chuck Klein (15 seasons, 2x All-Star, 1x MVP): .326 avg, .935 OPS, 243 HR, 983 RBI, 33.3 WAR
- Johnny Callison (10 seasons, 3x All-Star): .271 avg, .795 OPS, 185 HR, 666 RBI, 37.2 WAR
- Bobby Abreu (9 seasons, 2x All-Star): .303 avg, .928 OPS, 195 HR, 814 RBI, 45.4 WAR
Who were voting for:
Eric Seidman: Delmon Young. In all seriousness, Bobby Abreu. I don’t care if he didn’t run into walls. He stayed healthy year-in, year-out and from 1998-2005, he hit .305/.415/.519 with averages of 23 HR and 29 SB over 157 games. There were problems with those Phillies teams, but he was always unfairly criticized for things that mattered little while not getting recognition, even from his own fanbase, for the areas in which he excelled. He was a 20 HR/20 SB player in 7 of his 8 full season with the Phillies, two of which were 30 HR/30 SB years.
Jon Nisula: For a guy that got so much criticism, you might not think that Bobby Abreu was the best RF in Phillies history. But I think that’s the case. He was producing consistently for the Phils, and actually had the highest cumulative fWAR among all Phillies RFers.
Jay Floyd: The top right-fielder in team history is Chuck Klein, who was the National League MVP in 1932 a year before he locked down the offensive Triple Crown, leading the NL in home runs (28), RBI (120) and batting average (.368). Klein ranks among the all-time team leaders in hits, runs, RBI and home runs. Also, he is the only Phillie to ever have over 100 extra-base hits in a season and he did that twice!
Pat Gallen: It has to be Bobby Abreu, hands down. Plus, who didn’t enjoy listening to Dan Baker announce him. “Now batting for the Phillies…number 53…Bobby A-bre-uuuu.”
Posts: 0 wbramh
My friend Frank both had good arms and our natural hero on the team was Johnny C. so we enjoyed sitting up close down the right field line at Connie Mack to watch him work.
One night Johnny was having a rare, terrible game. His bat had been silent all evening but our expectations rose when he played a line drive off the right field as some speedster took off from the batter’s box. Johnny misplayed the ball for an error, then let loose with his rocket arm in an attempt to thwart the base-runner’s efforts to stretch his not-so-sure double into a 3-bagger on the fielding error. Instead, the ball sailed about 6 rows up into the stands behind the 3rd base bag – on the fly!
A rare double error.
Johnny dropped his head in shame while my friend Frank and I jumped up and down yelling ,”Did you see that throw? Did you see that throw?” We tried shouting words of encourage to Johnny but he would have none of it.
Still, how can you not vote for Chuck Klein? Just because Chuck was before my time doesn’t mean he didn’t exist.
Posted: 09:26 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 wbramh
Please excuse the previous typos.
My keyboard is dying…. again.
Posted: 09:32 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
An argument could be made for any of the three, plus Gavvy Cravath (1912-1920).
If you want to go with the best hitter, then the choice is Cravath, who had an OPS+ of 152 (i.e. 52% better than the league average). Chuck Klein was also very good, but his stats are inflated by playing in a period when pitching was much worse, and so it took many more runs to win a game. Klein’s OPS+ with the Phillies: 139.
If you want the best player overall, then I agree with 3 of the 4 panelists — the choice is Bobby Abreu. He was at least as good a hitter as Klein, and arguably better, and a better all-around player.
Posted: 10:13 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 wbramh
A reasonable argument for Abreu but then again, we’ll never know how Klein would have performed against better pitching and in the era of relievers. I tend to believe the best in one era could become the best in another given the same conditioning and competition.Of course, the competition is very different these days as we saw graphically in the warm-up game against the Dominican stars. Had Abreu been a product of the 1930s he would never have been given the opportunity to play outside of Venezuela.
Posted: 10:34 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
“…we’ll never know how Klein would have performed against better pitching and in the era of relievers.”
or Abreu against worse pitching, obviously.
You’re right, so all we can do is compare each to their peers.
Posted: 10:42 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
Course this is judged by a long term body of work, but the thing that perks my curiousity on the subject of right field is more along the lines of if it were short term, like best single season ever. I wonder where Jayson Werth and Bake McBride would fit in then. Werth, with the 36 momer season might be pretty discussable, all I remember off the top of the noggin was that Bake was a helluva ballplayer, how his numbers as a Phil would match up, I’d have to check.
All I can say about Callison is is was a privelege to watch him play, and of course one of the magic moments where you remember your exact place, and breathing patterns was the drive off Dick Radatz that led the NL to the 7-4 win in that semi magical 1964 season.
Posted: 10:55 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 1431 Pat Gallen
Thats a great question Ken. That Werth season stands out and for a quick stint, there weren’t many players in recent history who helped the Phillies more than Werth. He was a huge part of their success. I miss the old Werth. Don’t miss him now that he’s gone, I just miss what that team was, with him on it.
Posted: 11:37 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Bill
How ’bout 5 for 1? Lol.
Posted: 11:57 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Never lived up (or lived down) the 5-for-1 hype, but nevertheless Hayes was a pretty good player. If the list was expanded to top 10 Phillies RFers, Hayes would be on it, along with Werth. McBride (mentioned by Ken) would probably not quite make that list.
Posted: 12:11 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
Here’s kind of a fun trivia question about the 1980 Phils. I’ll post the answer further down so if anyone wants to try to think about it, the answer isn’t so immediate.
The way I’ll word the question is how many Phils placed in the top 16 MVP candidates that year. Aanother way to look at it would be name the Phils that placed in the top let’s say 20 candidates in MVP voting that year.
Trusting the question to memory, it’s fairly challenging because a couple players were still within their primek, and top 16 includes a little less than elite And the ’80 club certainly had stars, but it was a pretty well rounded team effort, so you might be inclined to think the top 16 would contain a lesser number.
Time’s up.
Here are the players that make it as qualifiers.
Schmidt won the MVP. Those witnessing that fun year no doubt are aware of it.
Lefty finished 5, a spot behind Dusty Baker.
Bake McBride, who was in his 3rd and a half season with the Phils by then made it 3 Phils in the top 10. Bake only played in 137 games that year, so voters apparently appreciated his impact.
And the 16th highest total went to New York City can take this trophy and shove it, cause WE’RE NUMBER ONE!!!!! What a late season The Tugger had!
That would seem to be a pretty good total out of the top 16. Or maybe it’s typical of a world champion. Either way, I’ll take it.
Posted: 12:28 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Bart Shart
It has to be Chuck Klein, based purely on the numbers and the fact he is in the HOF. He was a great player before my time, but he was the brightest spot on the Phillies roster for a long, long time.
Posted: 11:59 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Jleon
Best defensive OF of all time for the Phils, hands down Glenn Wilson and he struck out the Mets Howard Johnson back in 1987.
Offensively, Chuck Klein
Overall – Bobby Abreuuuuuu
Just my two cents
Posted: 11:59 AM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 3569 Lefty
1974-1977-
Is four seasons enough to make the list? Jay Johnstone- look up the stats. If memory serves he had a heck of an arm too.
I never saw him play, but I voted for Klein.
Posted: 12:28 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
The Wizard of Oze platooned the Jaybird. That might weaken his case. I had erroneously mentioned in passing in a discussion here about a week ago that Jay had gone 7-9 in the ’77 playoffs. I never looked it up, but think it was actually against the Reds in that nice to be here at least 3 and out. But hell, no disrespect to any of the rightfielders, Jay’s 7-9 against the Natti should qualify himself just for that. But I doubt he faced Gullet in that mix. He was one tough pitcher, although that was limited to especiially when he was on.
Boy, the Jaybird was personality plus.
Posted: 12:33 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
In terms of WAR per plate appearance he was right up there with Klein and Callison, but below Abreu and Cravath.
But at only 1,586 plate appearances with the Phils, it’s tough for me to put him near the top.
Posted: 12:42 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 3569 Lefty
Schmenkman, hey WAR per PA, that would be interesting to see for the all time greats. Without asking you to do the math because I can do it myself, is there a site that already has that listed or ranked? I don’t recall it on fangraphs.
Posted: 01:15 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Lefty, no — I don’t know of any site that normalizes WAR for playing time.
Posted: 02:10 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
might wanna try http://www.kenbland.com.
Very insightful on WAR, but that detail? Not sure.
Posted: 02:13 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 770 betasigmadeltashag
I think this is a perfect example why WAR can not and should not be the end all be all especially comparing different eras. Once the Phillies ridded themselves off Bobby A. they started winning, and given they replaced him with a worse player shows how sometimes the sabre guys get some of it wrong. Bobby A was a below avg defender, and by all accounts while Kline may not have been elite defender he was above avg compared to his peers. I was unimpressed with Bobby A’s play, maybe it was just how he went about it, but he seemed lazy at times, and I am not a big fan of saying a guy had empty hits or stolen bases but he seemed to get three hits in a 10-1 game and go 0fer in a 2-1 game, and yes he walk a lot, and I know some out there think that makes a great offensive player, but there are times it is better to swing the bat especially when your team is not that good and there is no offense behind you.
I know his stats do not hold up but Shake and Bake McBride is my favorite RF of the phillies, he did not play here for long but was a key player in the 80 WS team
Posted: 12:36 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
“Once the Phillies ridded themselves off Bobby A. they started winning”
I would strongly disagree there is cause and effect there. I think the Phillies started winning because their core got better together. Rollins had an MVP year in 2007, Howard was still going strong, Utley was one of the best ever, and Victorino, Werth, Hamels, Burrell, etc.
That’s why the Phillies started winning, and they would have won at least as much had they kept Abreu.
“he seemed to get three hits in a 10-1 game and go 0fer in a 2-1 game”
Assuming that this impression is correct, first, I would be shocked if the opposite was often true of any other player. Secondly, doesn’t he get credit for helping the team to win that 10-1 game?
Posted: 02:04 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Betasigmadeltashag
My timeing may be off cause I am old but didn’t they trade Bobby A in 2007 and make the playoffs and win a division when they were 8-10 games out when they got rid of him
Posted: 09:22 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Abreu was traded July 30, 2006.
Posted: 09:29 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 1 mkotyk24
Chuck Klein is a Hall of Famer on some really bad Phillies teams. How could you not vote for him?
Posted: 12:45 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 46 RatBastardNJ
I just couldn’t click the box to vote for Abreu…I know the numbers are there, but not once while watching him play did I feel he had to be one of the all time greats to wear a Phillies uniform. Sorry, this lack of vote is due to gut feeling, not numbers.
I never watched Klein play, but knowing that he earned MVP and was a triple crown winner caused him to get my vote. His numbers seemed consistently strong despite the era he was playing in.
Posted: 12:55 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 John
Not sure how anybody could say Abreu is “hands down” the best RF over Klein or Callison. While he had good numbers he mailed it in way too often. Imagine what his numbers could have been if he hadn’t. And if numbers are the basis then Klein is the man. The MVP and Triple Crown help tip it in his favor. Didn’t get to see Klein or Callison play so can’t really speak to their effort on the field.
Posted: 01:04 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 wbramh
Nobody’s mentioned Del Ennis
.I wouldn’t pick him in the top three but he certainly belongs among the top ten Phillies right fielders.
,He made the all star team in his rookie season and was second only to Musial in slugging percentage and (I believe) led the league in hits and the team in batting average in 1950. I watched him play and thought he was one helluva good all-around baseball player.
He had excellent power, was a good fielder with decent speed (early) and had a superb arm. While arguably more of a line drive hitter he still managed to pass Klein as the all-time home run leader on the team and stayed there until Schmitty zoomed past him.
The guy was never really appreciated in this town and took a raft of undeserved crap from fans.
Posted: 02:28 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 wbramh
Addendum: Of course, Ennis played both corners which may effect his right field ranking but I remember him best in right.
Posted: 02:30 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
well remembered where he should have been, see the left field discussion.
Posted: 02:30 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 George
A lot of players have gotten undeserved crap. Abreu, Dick Allen, Von Hayes, and even Mike Schmidt until pretty late in his career. I’m not sure what it takes to be popular in Philadelphia, but putting up consistently great numbers doesn’t seem to be it. Maybe it’s their perceived attitude, but in my opinion, it’s pretty arrogant to make assumptions without knowing the actual player, his physical condition on any particular day, or how much effort he’s putting in even when he’s having a lousy game.
Posted: 06:42 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Andrew from Waldorf
Klein
Posted: 03:07 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Ken Bland
no stories about what you recall from watching him, or at least from what you saw on tv?
Posted: 03:09 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Bart Shart
I remember Ennis as primarily a left fielder, and a damn good one.
Posted: 03:09 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Yep, he played much more left field. Played in Right in 1948, 1950, and 1951, and parts of ’52, ’54, and ’57. Other than that he played mostly Left.
1290 games in LF
568 games in RF
Posted: 03:14 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Righteous Robert
CHUCK easily wins ALL TIME #1 Right Fielder
Reparations for Vietnam Vets
Baltimore Bob
Posted: 03:47 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Righteous Robert
Chuck Klein died in Indianapolis, Indiana, aged 53, from undisclosed causes.
After years of lobbying, he was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1980.
The Phillies honored him on the outfield wall of Veterans Stadium
with his name and an Old English-style “P”
where a retired uniform number would go.
In 1999, he ranked number 92 on
The Sporting News’ list of the 100 Greatest Baseball Players,
and was a nominee for the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.
Not Bad as he’s probably only 2nd to 3rd base and Mike Schmidt
for the 8 positions other than Pitchers.
Reparations for Vietnam Vets
Baltimore Bob
Posted: 03:52 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
Klein was a very good player (Triple Crown and MVP is nothing to sneeze at), but he also had the good fortune of playing in a period of inflated offensive numbers (much more so than in the PED era).
In terms of all-time Phillie position players, I would put him behind at least Ashburn, Delahanty, and Utley, and arguably also Abreu, Rollins, and Sherry Magee.
Posted: 04:13 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 wbramh
Like Klein, Delahanty and Magee were other great Phillies players to die young.
Of course, Big Ed’s demise was the most dramatic – swept over Niagara Falls.
Must have been part of the 1916-1949 curse.
Posted: 05:15 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 schmenkman
The curse must have been really something. For a 30-year period, from 1919 through 1948, they had a winning percentage of .371 — that’s like going 60-102 (by today’s schedule) every single year for 30 straight years.
Other than that 30-year period, the Phillies have a 100-year history with a winning record (i.e. 36 yrs 1883-1918 and 64 yrs 1949-2012). Extremely selective endpoints, but I like to think of it that way anyway.
Posted: 05:31 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 3569 Lefty
@Scmenkman- That’s almost too brutal to imagine. I don’t know how they sold any tickets year after year after year. People really had to love baseball back then.
@ wbramh- I saw your comment the other day friend, thanks.
Posted: 05:38 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 549 \"Big Ed\" Delahanty
My vote is for Ed Delahanty. I had average, hits, doubles, etc., and for those who say I didn’t hit homers, I had four in a game (inside the park no less!) I fell behind the outfield fence to catch a ball. And then I fell off the falls of Niagra. Since I’m not on the list, my vote is for Chuck Klein. Poor pitching or not, you still have to hit the ball. Lol. My father would pick Callison, since he would watch him at Connie Mack Stadium. I grew up with Shake and Bake. But Klein wins out, unless I can put a write in for Big Ed Delahanty! : )
Posted: 08:30 PM on March 7, 2013
Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del
I still remember how the Vet rocked one night in late September 1980 when McBride hit a lead off walk off against the Expos. Bake remains as one of my favorites.
Posted: 07:00 PM on March 8, 2013