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Phillies Win, Team Still Intact

Posted by Pat Gallen, Tue, July 30, 2013 10:35 PM | Comments: 67
Analysis, News, Opinion, Posts

michael-youngAs the rumors fly on Twitter, the Phillies remain whole…for now. They snapped an 8-game losing streak, defeating the San Francisco Giants, 7-3. The game was secondary to everything else surrounding the club.

Michael Young, who homered in what could be his final game in a short stint with the Phillies, said he has no idea if anything will happen as the trade deadline strikes at 4 pm. tomorrow.

As of this writing it appears Cliff Lee is staying put. There has been little traction on several other Phillies, at least publicly. That doesn’t mean they’ll stand pat.

Regardless, they played much better baseball in front of a pretty decent crowd at CBP. Over 36,000 packed the stands and there was actually some juice from the crowd even though the Phillies had just come off a season-defining road trip that went south in a hurry and never recovered.

Avatar of Pat Gallen

About Pat Gallen

Pat Gallen has written 1674 articles on Phillies Nation.

Pat is Editor-in-Chief of Phillies Nation. He also covers the Phils for 97.5 FM in Philly.

 
 
  • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

    OK a win. Red Sox just picked up Peavy so no Lee deal. RAJ just watching….

     
    • Posts: 821 schmenkman

      Avatar of schmenkman

      “RAJ just watching”

      This makes no sense of course. More likely, he’s working the phones furiously with multiple teams. In the Red Sox case, he asked for a lot in return (Bogaerts), as he should have, and the Red Sox balked.

      That’s perfectly fine.

       
  • Posts: 0 Cs

    Dodgers still in play? Or is this really a lost trade season.

     
  • Posts: 8 quadratic

    Avatar of quadratic

    Michael Young, who has a no-trade clause, has stated that he will refuse a trade to any team other than the Texas Rangers.

     
  • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

    I believe RAJ will stand his ground and not give ayers away like he did last year. Come next year’s trade deadline all other GMs will know that when he asks for a player he means it and when he asks that teams pay all the salary remaining on a contract of a player he wants to move he means that too. Man I can’t wait .

     
    • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

      Sorry about the typos can’t type on this new fangled I-phone

       
    • Posts: 4874 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not. If not, I agree with you. Patience is the best negotiating tool there is.

       
  • Posts: 0 Bart Shart

    Phillies standing pat —– that means they are going nowhere in 2013.. Suck it up Phillies fans.

     
    • Posts: 0 c. schreiber

      Nor 2014, 2015 & possibly 2016.

       
  • Posts: 4874 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    The last thing I want is a trade just for the sake of making one. You don’t just give away a pitcher like Cliff Lee. If Greinke can net you Segura, then Lee is worth at least Bogaerts.

    Job well done this time, RA Jr.

    Don’t rush in, don’t give in, wait it out and sometimes the right offer comes in, or- it doesn’t. It seems as if our GM has learned that jumping the gun (i.e. paying Papelbon 3 times what the market dictates a couple of weeks later, overpaying for Pence, etc. ) is the wrong way to manage a club.

    IMO- if that’s the case, we should all be happy about that.

     
    • Posts: 0 Pulling for Dutch

      Greinke for Segura worked better because it was a rental and there wasnt a huge salary tied to Greinke. Plus he is younger. I agree Bogaerts should be the guy we demand but be prepared to pick up some of the cash from Lee’s contract.

      Even if they cant move Lee right now i would try to get something for Ruiz, M.Young, D.Young. Bastardo

      Can Asche play RF?

      I would def try to look to see if we could trade Kendrick too. Maybe to Oakland for Chris Young or Reddick. A rotation of Hamels, Halladay (give him a 2year deal with a team option for another year), Alf, Pettibone and Biddle.

      The bullpen really needs work. J.P. Howell, Matt Thorton, Carlos Marmol would be great additions with Diekman, De Fratus, Stutes.

       
      • Posts: 0 Keith

        Just a thought. Let Asche play third. If he’s still around, move Michael Young to first. Ruf plays LF, and Dom Brown moves to right when he returns. That covers a number of problems in one shot.

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        Makes sense, Keith. If Young is still here, he’s not seeing much of third base. Or even better, Frandsen at first, Young off the bench.

         
      • Posts: 0 wbramh

        Shmenk:
        Point taken – It might make more sense to put Frandzen at 1st and use M. Young off the bench, but Frandzen has had great success as a pinch hitter on a team with an otherwise thin bench and he adapts well when he’s thrown anywhere on defense. On the other hand, it seems Young’s game has benefitted by becoming more of an every day player, greatly exceeding expectations at bat and somewhat better than predicted in the field. I don’t know whether I’d want to mess with that even if Frandzen is the superior all-around player.

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        Agree that Young has hit pretty well, but while his defense may not be as Wiggy-like as many feared, it’s still well below average and among the worst in baseball at third, and happily it looks like that experiment is now over. But even at first, I’d be more interested in getting Frandsen regular playing time to help plan for next year than I am in maximizing the quality of the bench.

        In any case, hopefully this will all be moot by 4 pm anyway.

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        I meant to add on Michael Young, that while he’s hit pretty well, if you use WAR to combine his offensive and defensive contributions, overall this year he’s been (at best) about the same as Polanco’s worst year here: 0.4 for Polanco in 2012, 0.4 for M.Young in 2/3 of a season this year. That’s fangraphs’ WAR. If use baseball-reference, Young looks worse than Polanco.

         
  • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

    The problem for this team is that RAJ needed to use this deadline to correct his past foibles.

     
  • Posts: 0 Pulling for Dutch

    This Boston,Detroit,Chicago White Sox trade really blows Cliffs market. Looks like Baltimore, LA Dodgers are the best secondary option. RAJ please dont keep this team together thinking that the fans wont come. This is Philadelphia we are a big market team and we are cool with a retool/reshuffle. We just want to see heart and wins.

     
    • Posts: 821 schmenkman

      Avatar of schmenkman

      From what you said, I can’t figure out why you’d want to trade Lee.

       
      • Posts: 0 Pulling for Dutch

        The spin that we all keep hearing is ohhh they want to keep Utley and the vets together bc of the new tv deal and the ability to sell seats at the Bank.

        Trading Lee gives us the opportunity to get younger and save money. If you can get Bogaerts from Boston he has to play SS. That means what are you going to do with Rollins? Got to try to trade him. The fans want to see a team that fights. As a fan do I want to lose an arm like Lee no. but with his salary im ok with moving him. Toooo much money is tied up in things that arent working for this team.

        I personally think Howard fully healthy and back on the Subway diet could come back hitting 35-45 homeruns a year with 120RBIs.

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        As you’ve probably heard, Boston acquired Peavy, so the Phillies will not be getting Bogaerts (the chances of which were extremely small anyway).

        Also, I wouldn’t be concerned about saving Lee’s salary since he is actually one part that is “working”, and if you don’t spend big money to replace him, you are left with an even worse pitching staff than the one that’s currently dead last in the NL in ERA.

         
  • Posts: 0 Keith

    The biggest issue the Phillies have is that there isn’t anyone the team is floating in trade talks that anyone else wants. Michael Young and Lee are the exceptions. I have a bigger issue with players who only want to stick around so they can reach some records…

     
    • Posts: 0 Pulling for Dutch

      That is a major problem. Some on here will say nooooo Jimmmy is great fantastic amazing he pisses gold. Jimmy is Jimmy and will always pop up and not really work a count. He’s not a leader and thats what we need.

       
      • Posts: 2965 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        “He’s not a leader” …but yet HE’S the one who had the inflated nut sack in early 2008 by declaring that they were the team to beat…basically rallying his team AND the fan base. Jimmy Rollins has been here the longest. He came up when the team sucked and has lived through some very lean years and was an integral part of the team’s success from 2007-2011. I’m glad he wants to stay and play for this team and this city. I’m very sure it’s a lot more than just the go&&am “records”.

         
      • Posts: 0 Jay

        Once Rollins got his contract he seems to have taken a step back. I don’t hear him talking with a large nut sack anymore.

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        @Jay, you’re wrong there. After signing his contract, he had one of the better seasons of his career, and was arguably the second best all around shortstop in baseball last year.

         
      • Posts: 0 Keith

        So Rollins was great FIVE YEARS AGO. Look at him today. Is he worth the $11M per year the Phillies will be paying him the next two seasons? I say no, and every GM in the league agreed with me last season.

         
      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        Since Rollins wanted to stay in Philadelphia, we don’t know what offers he got. Milwaukee apparently made a serious offer. in any case, he was worth much more than $11 M last season, and there is no reason to expect he won’t earn the contract.

         
  • Posts: 0 Mazinman

    Very interesting last several hours. Your not even hearing much in the way of rumors now. Either Ruben is dealing very quietly or he will try to get deals done during the waiver wire period instead.

     
  • Posts: 0 Yahtzee26

    Rollins isn’t a leader? Do you hang in the phillies clubhouse? How would you know. I don’t forget that he was the driving force in turning this franchise into a winner. And is still one of the best SS in the game.

     
  • Posts: 0 wbramh

    Rollins is still a very fine SS.
    Same with Utley at 2nd.
    Neither man is the same player he was a few years back yet it’s still not easy to find better, and the Phillies currently have none better. Plus, what they have lost over time and through injuries they make up by example to the guys coming up.

    Having said that, and to paraphrase Branch Rickey, it’s better to trade a player a year too soon than a year too late. The team has a number of players on that cusp or arguably past it already. I wonder what moves Rickey would have made with this team if he was unencumbered by modern contractual restraints and just based his moves on baseball sense?

     
  • Posts: 0 Eric D

    I usually am a supporter of RAJ however if the deadline comes and goes without any movement then I can no longer support him anymore. Off with his head!

     
  • Posts: 0 Andrew From Harrisburg

    Even bad teams will win one here and there.

    Today was an aberration. Do not be fooled.

    A bad team lurks behind the veneer of today’s victory.

    A lousy GM lurks behind the “no deal unless we get Bogaerts” impasse.

    Look at the body of work.

    AFH

     
    • Posts: 2965 Chuck A.

      Avatar of Chuck A.

      Or maybe the 8 game losing streak was an “aberration.” Maybe they still have that run in them. Problem is that they’re now almost too far back for that run to even make much of a difference.

      Look… There are 2 months left. I’m just gonna sit back and and take a relaxed attitude and enjoy the game. Root for my team. I want them to finish strong…at least .500 …let Charlie finish up by having no losing seasons during his tenure. Pretty amazing when you think of it.

       
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        Manuel is 3 wins from 1,000 for his career. He will be the 59th manager to win that many, and out of those 59, he will have the 16th highest winning percentage.

         
      • Posts: 2965 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        That’s why the organization really can’t just fire Charlie now. I think that they feel that they at least owe it to him to finish out his contract…he deserves that as the numbers, especially with the Phillies, speak for themselves. I’d love if he stayed with the organization in some sort of “advisory” capacity. The man knows baseball and the team would be crazy not to somehow utilize that knowledge.

         
      • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

        Charlie may not be the greatest game day manager in the majors, but he is playing with the hand that was dealt him, particularly when it comes to the bullpen. He is not the source of this team’s problems. Let him finish the season in peace.

         
  • Posts: 0 Phils_80_08

    36,492 true and phaitful Phillies Phans showed up to welcome back our team despite of the losing streak away. One of the best reasons why it’s great to be a Philly! Congrats for the win Phils and welcome home!

     
  • Posts: 0 TheDipsy

    Jesus, if nothing more, both Youngs need to go and get what you can for them. Its silly to keep them both here.

    The Dipsy.

     
    • Posts: 2965 Chuck A.

      Avatar of Chuck A.

      Delmon has no value.

       
    • Posts: 821 schmenkman

      Avatar of schmenkman

      Yeah, agreed — at least that must be done some way. Unless they think they can make a waiver deal for MY in August.

       
  • Posts: 0 Pulling for Dutch

    we should trade Bastarado

     
    • Posts: 0 George

      Why?

       
  • Posts: 0 George

    To all those who will condemn Amaro if he doesn’t manage a trade: I hpe you’re never on a jury. You will obviously decide without looking at evidence.

    First, there’s no one person who will know just what was offered or not offered for any Phils player. Second, some of the Phils, like M.Young, Lee, Rollins, and Utley have no trade clauses and might reject a trade. Third, other teams (like Boston did) might acquire their needs from other teams.

    Some of this may never be known, of course. The Phils’ front office generally works quietly, and most of what’s being reported right now is rumor and possibly misinformation.

    Personally, I’m not going to judge this trade deadline. I can only see Amaro’s past moves, some of which have worked and some of which haven’t. I’m not listening like the “fly on the front office wall,” like many other fans indicate that they are.

     
  • Posts: 0 Scooter

    Everyone here saying, “Calm down, we don’t know the details,” “RAJ did his best,” “I’m fine with standing pat,” “you don’t trade away pieces for nothing, etc.,” I hear you. But the bottom line is this: the 2012 Phillies missed playoffs, the 2013 Phillies are 11.5 games back at the start of August and will miss the postseason again, and RAJ just committed to field the same team (except a year older, slower, more tired, and less hungry) in 2014. Why should the outcome be any different?

    Go Phillies 2015? 2016? Sigh.

     
    • Posts: 821 schmenkman

      Avatar of schmenkman

      “RAJ just committed to field the same team (except a year older, slower, more tired, and less hungry) in 2014.”

      This isn’t true.

       
      • Posts: 0 scooter

        How so?

        News is of a three year deal in the offing for Utley. Jimmy has records to break and won’t be traded to a contender. Nobody wants Papelbon. Ryan’s is an immovable object. We just re-signed Cole. Doc is genuinely broken and we owe him a boatload of money. We missed out on moving Cliff Lee. We want to hang onto Brown, right? Maybe Chooch goes, but I have also heard that we don’t have a prospect ready to step in at catcher, so he could also be looking at a one-year deal. Revere comes back, I imagine. So, the only changes that are undeniably coming: Delmon goes his way and, what, Ruf is plugged-in (which is an upgrade that remains to be seen); Michael Young out, Cody Asche in at third; hopefully Gonzalez turns out to be something? Oh, and we part ways with Charlie Manuel.

        But the core of fading stars goes back out on the field (a year older, slower, and more tired– which is hard to argue, unless you understand something about entropy and decay that I don’t. Hungry, I guess, is debatable). That’s not exactly a sweeping makeover that makes us WS contenders next year, is it? More importantly, it’s not a significant retool that restocks the system and will make us competitors a few years down the line.

         
      • Posts: 0 schmenkman

        Lefty already showed below why it’s not true, and, as you say, if nothing else happens, at least two of the eight positions change (Young and Young), and at least one of the starting pitchers (Gonzalez in).

        By the way, they owe Halladay $0 after this year (not a “boatload”). If he pitches well when he returns and looks healthy, I can see offering him a qualified offer for 1 year at $13M or so.

        Expecting not only a sweeping change to youth, but at the same time a WS contender next year, is not reasonable for one trade deadline. There is still August and all of the off-season yet to come.

         
    • Posts: 4874 Lefty

      Avatar of Lefty

      Let me be a little more clear since my message seems to be getting misinterpreted.

      You don’t have to do anything RIGHT NOW if you don’t get the offers you like.

      That’s different than – You don’t need to make changes. Of course change is needed, but it’s a process, one which requires time. For the best teams that time is short, for others it can be forever.

      The world as we know it does not end on July 31st. You can still put every player on revocable waivers and make trades the day after. You can still make off season deals if the offers are better at that time, than they are now.

      CASE IN POINT- Ruben did not get his prized pitcher Roy Halladay at the deadline, but he did get him the next off season.

       
      • Posts: 0 scooter

        I see. Point taken.

         
    • Posts: 0 George

      Hey, Scooter: the deadline is still hours away. Then there’s the waiver trades afterward, and the off season. YOU’RE one of the very people who doesn’t know the details. Claiming Amaro is committed to the same team is not only premature, but ridiculously innacurate. He can’t possibly field the same team with contracts for the Youngs, Ruiz, Halladay, Utley (unless he’s extended) and probably others (McDonald, Martinez). There’s already been a pitching addition in Gonzalez.

      Retooling is a process, and it takes more than just a trade deadline to do it.

       
  • Posts: 0 Double Trouble Del

    There are still 5 plus hours left but this is shaping up to be a very quiet deadline. There does not seem to be a single impact player available this year that teams are clamoring for. Perhaps some August waiver wire deals involving the Youngs?

     
  • Posts: 4874 Lefty

    Avatar of Lefty

    If they sign Utley to a 13m per year, two year deal with an option, ( that only gets tripped if he can stay on the field) that seems more than acceptable to me.

     
  • Avatar of The Original Chuck P

    Michael Young would accept a trade to a contender… he just would prefer to go back to the Rangers. Think about it… at 38 y/o, he’s going to go wherever he’ll have a chance to win this season. If the Rangers don’t offer enough, the Phillies are not obligated to give them Michael Young.

    If we’re going to keep Chase Utley for sentimental reasons or whatever, why not figure out what the number is and go longer-term… like five years. If you think it’s going to cost you $45 million (3 years and $15 million), spread out the $45 million over a longer-term, add some money on the back end and ensure that he’s going to retire here. 5 years and $50 million… costs us $10 million per year rather than $15 million and we don’t have to go through this exercise again in three years when he’s 37. Or go 7 years and $52 million… you know you want him to retire here and you know it’s going to cost you a bucket of money somewhere around $45 million so isn’t it better to just spread that money out over a longer period of time to help the budget?

    I’ll be honest, the most upsetting thing to me right now is the fact that we can’t get rid of Papelbon… I’ve never seen a guy wear out his welcome like cinco ocho. When he was going well, we were all on board but he has fallen flat on his face since then and has done nothing to help himself… we’re critical in this town but the formula for success here is quite simple – try your best and own your results. When things are going well, that’s great but when they’re not, you had better not act like your crap don’t stink.

    I really don’t trust Rube to sell…

     
    • Posts: 2965 Chuck A.

      Avatar of Chuck A.

      Chase Utley for 5 years? Or 7?? You must be joking..

       
  • Posts: 0 The Dipsy

    The cost/benefit on keeping Utley is so skewed towards the “don’t do it” camp. The man has a degenerative knee condition. In both knees. Pro tip: Never sign a guy that has a “degenerative” anything, and certainly not for three years. Chase can still have his number retired if he leaves after the season. Further, lets make a move for a guy in a position of need. If Chase splits, Hernandez plays. He’s gotta play sometime. Or are ya gonna put Hernandez in center, Revere in left, and Brown in right. Which leaves nowhere for Ruf.

    Sign McCann. When Howard leaves he’ll go to first.

    The Dipsy

     
  • Posts: 2965 Chuck A.

    Avatar of Chuck A.

    This from MLBTR:

    “WEDNESDAY: The two sides are discussing a three-year deal or two-year deal (plus a vesting option) for around $13MM per season, according to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports. The Phillies consider Utley to be their franchise player and have every intention of keeping him around.”

    Since when did Utley become “their franchise player”?? (as in singular).. Last I checked, Rollins has been here longer (and intends to stay), Howard’s a product of the system signed the long term deal and is firmly entrenched on the roster, Hamels is home grown and just
    signed long-term…

    I’m all for keeping him because it may make sense as in he’s one of the best 2B still in baseball and can be signed reasonably. As long as he stays healthy.

     
  • Posts: 0 Chuck A.

    hello

     
  • Posts: 0 Keith

    Boring trade deadline, not just for the Phillies either. Word has it that no one offered anything of value for Michael Young. The only two players that seemingly had any true offers were Frandsen and Rollins. Unfortunately, the entire league now knows where Rollins’ true allegiances lie…

    Rollins, M Young, and Howard probably all go on revocable waivers tomorrow. Rest of the team probably does at some time this month. I hope Amaro manages to do something, or he should be joining Manuel on the unemployment line after the season.

     
    • Posts: 0 schmenkman

      Right, Rollins’ true allegiances lie with the Phillies. Amaro will look to work the waiver wire with some or all of those you list, and probably others, but in reality he has until 2014 opening day to make improvements.

       
      • Posts: 0 Keith

        Rollins true allegiances lie with himself. Did you hear his statement why he wouldn’t waive his no trade clause? He admitted he wouldn’t waive it because HE was at or near the top of many team lists and he wants to get to the top of many others. That is not a team player, and the Phillies have to deal with that for another 2 years. Yes, Rollins may have earned his contract last year if you ignore the multitude of popups, but this year he is definitely not. Revere has a higher OPS since May.

         
      • Posts: 2965 Chuck A.

        Avatar of Chuck A.

        So, Keith – If you know so much about Jimmy’s “true allegiances” I guess you must know him personally???

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        I took Rollins’ statement as saying that he was proud and happy to have been with the Phillies organization long enough and played well enough to climb those lists, and he intends to remain part of this organization for the foreseeable future.

        And no one is ignoring the popups — they’re included in the assessment that he more than earned his contract. FYI, if you combined his popups and his strikeouts, he would still strike out less than average and less than then average leadoff hitter (not that means as much any more).

         
      • Posts: 0 hk

        Amazing. For years, we’ve killed players who have stated their desire to get out of Philly (i.e. Rolen and now Papelbon). Now, you want to rip a guy who wants to get as many hits, doubles, triples, SB’s and runs scored as he can, all in a Phillies uniform? If Jimmy is selfish and accomplishes some of his personal goals, how exactly is that bad for the Phillies? Of the team sports, baseball is by far the one that is most dependent upon individual achievements. I would have a problem if the records he was seeking were most errors, K’s or GIDP’s, but I, for one, appreciate Jimmy’s comments.

         
      • Posts: 0 Keith

        Chuck A, I don’t know Rollins personally. I just read his comment as everyone else did. I took it as he is more worried about records than helping the team. Who is correct? We won’t know for a couple years likely. What I do know in the present is no team other than the Phillies valued him as a $11M player for 3-4 years less than two years ago. What did other teams see that the Phillies didn’t or ignored?

         
      • Posts: 821 schmenkman

        Avatar of schmenkman

        @Keith, you seem to know the answers to these questions:
        - which teams were on the market for a shortstop?
        - what were their other options?
        - what offers did Rollins actually get? (e.g. what did Milwaukee offer?)

        What we do know is that:
        - he was worth much more than $11 M in 2011
        - the Phillies were the only team that already had many thousands of Rollins fans
        - after signing the contract he was worth much more than $11 M again in 2012, and was one of the top 2-3 best shortstops in baseball

         
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